Need Help

[TheyCallMeMom]

My sister has been asking alot of questions.. she is meeting with missionaries, but she still has alot of hang ups.. at times I wonder what her true intentions are, but my role as sister and lds member is to be supportive and answer to the best of my ability

so this is part of what she left on my page

I still think the two books( BOM and Bible) contradict each other dogmatically. -- I asked her how so--Well for one God according to the Bible is not and never was man. Two, we were not in existence before we came to Earth. Three, there is no evidence of Nephites or Lamanites. =\ The Jews, the Egyptians, the Mesopotamians, the Aboriginees, the Celts, the Anglo-Saxons we all have records of... I can accept it as a legit religion, I just don't agree... Read More with it or understand because of certain things. =) Not like I have a bunch of room to talk, and I am not saying you are wrong, I am just having a hard time reconciling some things in regards to what I was taught about the Bible. =\

Then again the Earth is more than 6,000 years old and I believe in evolution, and no we did NOT come from monkeys that is a huge misconception. So it's really a difficult subject. Heh.

she is all over the place in our discussions.. she has evolution theories, she tosses in pagan beliefs, buddhist ideals, and for good measure her catholic background.

so how would you respond to her statement..

Edited to add.. she has now joined this forum and this conversation :)

Edited April 13, 2009 by TheyCallMeMom

[bytor2112]

Two, we were not in existence before we came to Earth.

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? (Hebrews 12:9.)

Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. (Acts 17:29)

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God. (Romans 8:17.)

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. (Jer. 1:5.)

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

7 When the morning stars asang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?(Job 38 4,7)

-Bytor

[WillowTheWhisp]

The Bible doesn't state that God never was a man. It doesn't say anything at all on the subject of God's origins.

[Hemidakota]

My sister has been asking alot of questions.. she is meeting with missionaries, but she still has alot of hang ups.. at times I wonder what her true intentions are, but my role as sister and lds member is to be supportive and answer to the best of my ability

so this is part of what she left on my page

she is all over the place in our discussions.. she has evolution theories, she tosses in pagan beliefs, buddhist ideals, and for good measure her catholic background.

so how would you respond to her statement..

She needs to spend more time in reading the first couple chapters of Genesis in understanding the corporeal of the Godhead.

[talisyn]

I don't think your sister is quite ready for baptism

She's asking questions though and that's good, she hasn't completely shut out the possibility of the LDS church being right or she'd stop talking about it. I'm more concerned about you though. How is your testimony holding up? Have you been strengthened by your scripture studying and prayers? This is a great opportunity to do major learning about the gospel and applying it's principles to your life, like fasting and prayers for specific answers (I'm not saying you don't do that already lol. Just saying it's a good time for it). One thing to remember is truthfulness of The Book of Mormon will be proven by the Holy Spirit, not by the thousands of little evidences found in Mesoamerican pottery and statues.

[NeuroTypical]

so how would you respond to her statement..

I'd ask her how she wanted me to respond. There is a ready answer for every single word she typed - does she want it? Is she open to a response from you that asks her to look at what she believes and why she believes it?

Without some indication that she's willing to hear what you have to say, I wouldn't bother saying anything other than the standard sisterly "love ya and hugs and stuff" stuff.

LM

[TheyCallMeMom]

I'm more concerned about you though. How is your testimony holding up? Have you been strengthened by your scripture studying and prayers? This is a great opportunity to do major learning about the gospel and applying it's principles to your life, like fasting and prayers for specific answers (I'm not saying you don't do that already lol. Just saying it's a good time for it). One thing to remember is truthfulness of The Book of Mormon will be proven by the Holy Spirit, not by the thousands of little evidences found in Mesoamerican pottery and statues.

I agree.. and it does.. her questions get me to look for answers. I also learn from the answers I find.. the more I learn the stronger my testimony.. so its good for both of us..

I wish I knew more.. In 11 months I have learned quite a bit.. but still learniong more each day

I am currently enrolled in the Temple class.. again more new info.. I am not sure its possible, to remember it all! LOL not enough post it notes HA HA!

[TheyCallMeMom]

thanks for the responses.. Maybe I will use those in our FHE tonight..

[Justice]

All those things she mentioned are common concerns for a lot of people.

The bottom line is whether or not the Book of Mormon is true.

You need to get her away from looking for answers outside the Book of Mormon. If she can feel the Book of Mormon is true then all those other concerns go away.

God never promised us proof that any of the things He has said are true. But, we can feel the truth with the help if the Spirit.

You might review Moroni 10: 3-5 and James 1: 5 and show how she must be believing, not doubting.

[smitchell88]

Uh hi everybody.

Here is why, sis....

Because regardless of other beliefs, one of my concerns is the Bible VS the LDS teachings. Show me where in the Bible it specifically says that we existed before coming to Earth. Show me where in the Bible it specifically says that God was once a man. Show me specifically, besides in your heart of hearts, the evidence [not proof - evidence] of cultures such as that of the Nephites of the Lamanites. And didn't part of Joseph Smith's divine translation really translate into part of the Egyptian Book of the Dead? I believe it did...

I have very different religious views than that of my family and most of the modern Western world. I don't think there is one true church. There can't be. The Muslims believe they're right, and the believe it with all their heart, as do the "normal" Christians, and the Jews... People pick their beliefs based on what they feel in their heart, and what is right for them, and it is not always the same for everybody. There are so many things wrong historically and theologically [in regards to the Bible] with the LDS faith I have a considerably difficult time reconciling any of it. And by the way a "testimony" and a "witness" are not good enough... You've GOT to take in everyone else's beliefs, and put yourself in a position with those beliefs and as a potential convert. How would you feel, given what you always "knew" about your religion?? =\

And uh.. her sister is not going to get baptized.

[Guest HEthePrimate]

Howdy, TheyCallMeMom,

First, it seems your sis doesn't really know the Bible that well, and is relying on what others tell her about the Bible. The Bible, for example, does not teach that God never was a man. It doesn't teach that he was, either, just doesn't say anything about it either way.

Given the fact she's mentioning all kinds of different spiritual traditions, it sounds to me like she's doing some exploring and trying to figure things out. In your situation, I'd just answer her questions to the best of my ability, let the missionaries do their thing, and be patient. If she doesn't join the Church right away, that's ok. She's still your sister, and I can tell from your post that you love her. :)

It'll work out.

HEP

[HiJolly]

My sister has been asking alot of questions.. she is meeting with missionaries,

Questions can be good. I ask lots of questions....

so this is part of what she left on my page:

Well for one God according to the Bible is not and never was man.

Not true. Jesus Christ was a man. Jesus Christ is God. If you want to nuance it and mention the Father, it is true that the Bible does not teach that directly; but Jesus does say that he does nothing but what He saw the Father do, whatever that means.

Two, we were not in existence before we came to Earth.

Where does the Bible say that? I like bytor's answers on this one.

Three, there is no evidence of Nephites or Lamanites.

Sure there is. It's in the Book of Mormon. That's evidence. Also in the History of the Church, where Joseph is talking about them. Not evidence? No, not PROOF. But as posted here, the word used was 'evidence', not 'proof'. The case was overstated by somebody.

The Jews, the Egyptians, the Mesopotamians, the Aboriginees, the Celts, the Anglo-Saxons we all have records of...

Do you doubt that there are at least as many peoples that we never did hear of? I'll bet there are 1,000's of civilizations that didn't leave any clear written evidence of their passing. Especially in the New World.

I am just having a hard time reconciling some things in regards to what I was taught about the Bible. =\

Zen: If you meet the Buddha on the path, kill him. Time to go Zen.

Then again the Earth is more than 6,000 years old and I believe in evolution, and no we did NOT come from monkeys that is a huge misconception. So it's really a difficult subject.

I agree with your sister. It's obvious that evolution is true, that the age of the earth is in the billions of years. We watch evolution happen in labs across the world every day. For some LDS, this is a huge stumbing block.

she is all over the place in our discussions.. she has evolution theories, she tosses in pagan beliefs, buddhist ideals, and for good measure her catholic background.

so how would you respond to her statement..

I study everything I get the opportunity to study. Science and religion mostly. At the moment I'm learning more about the Hindu religion. Paganism, Buddhism and other traditions and/or religions have much truth that we can learn from.

And I'm an active LDS parent of 9 kids, etc. Since I believe in evolution I guess I can't say I'm TBM anymore, but I *feel* TBM...

HiJolly

[rameumptom]

I've answered these questions frequently. First, study up at fairlds.org on these topics, as they have indepth answers to all of them. Here's a quick run down:

1. Well for one God according to the Bible is not and never was man.

Actually, the Bible DOES teach an anthropomorphic God. Adam and Eve were made in God's image. Moses spoke face to face with God and saw his back/body parts. Stephen saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God. Isaiah saw God on his throne. Here's a clincher: Jesus is God and yet also was a man. For those believing in the Trinity, how can they then deny that God was never man?

2. Two, we were not in existence before we came to Earth.

Actually, we were. Many scholars are now realizing there was a "divine council" led by Elohim. Science shows that matter cannot be made from nothing, but is eternal, just as we believe. The Bible says we will return to the God that gave us life - how can we return, if we were never with him before?

3. Three, there is no evidence of Nephites or Lamanites. =\ The Jews, the Egyptians, the Mesopotamians, the Aboriginees, the Celts, the Anglo-Saxons we all have records of... I can accept it as a legit religion, I just don't agree... Read More with it or understand because of certain things. =) Not like I have a bunch of room to talk, and I am not saying you are wrong, I am just having a hard time reconciling some things in regards to what I was taught about the Bible.

The views on the Bible have changed dramatically among Bible scholars in the last decade. If no evidence means it isn't true, then we would have to deny the existence of Adam, Eve, Abraham and all of the Bible down to King David. And David has only been verified in the archaeological record in the last decade or so - after a century of digging by hundreds of archaeologists in Jerusalem and Israel. Compare that to the more recent searches done in the Americas (two whole continents) by people not looking for Nephites at all. How would they know what to look for? The Nephites were a small group among many other groups here. If it takes a century to find evidence of King David's existence in a small area like Jerusalem, how much time should we give for looking for Nephites in the Americas? BTW, we have found Nephite locations in modern day Arabia: Nahom, the Arabian Bountiful, and possibly the valley Lehi first stayed in after departing Jerusalem. None were known in Joseph Smith's day - in fact were only discovered in the last 15 years or so.

People are taught many incorrect things about the Bible. That's one of the reasons there are so many Christian religions today. Worse, most Christians do not read their Bibles, so they only get what they know from a pastor or from watching a movie during Easter or Christmas. Instead, there are dozens of great articles that explain these issues, many available for free on the Internet. Try going to fairlds.org and see for yourself.

[smitchell88]

I love my sister, too. However, I don't believe there was ever a requirement for joining the LDS Church. I know the Bible fairly well - I grew up on Scripture. That doesn't change the fact that this faith is not exactly credible. It relies on faith only. I have done all the exploring I need, and have finally landed in a good spot. I just have a hard time understanding why the followers of the LDS faith believe things so steadfastly when next to your intuition and own personal FEELINGS there's nothing to stand on. It is very contradictory to the original Christian teachings which have not changed since the dawn of their time. I understand the Godhead, also, and it is not separate, it is all a part of the same. =\

[smitchell88]

I don't see the point in trying to get answers because the only evidence is the Book of Mormon.... That's not evidence, it didn't even exist until the 1800s. =\ I keep getting left confused.

[HiJolly]

I love my sister, too. However, I don't believe there was ever a requirement for joining the LDS Church. I know the Bible fairly well - I grew up on Scripture. That doesn't change the fact that this faith is not exactly credible. It relies on faith only. I have done all the exploring I need, and have finally landed in a good spot. I just have a hard time understanding why the followers of the LDS faith believe things so steadfastly when next to your intuition and own personal FEELINGS there's nothing to stand on. It is very contradictory to the original Christian teachings which have not changed since the dawn of their time. I understand the Godhead, also, and it is not separate, it is all a part of the same. =\

Who is your sister? Your first post was very mixed in its reference to a sister. So I'm confused about that.

And I would argue that you've heard a lot about the Bible, but haven't really studied it for yourself. The evidence in your posts is quite clear on that.

One must balance reason with emotion. It cuts both ways, for God speaks to us both ways.

HiJolly

[TheyCallMeMom]

Who is your sister? Your first post was very mixed in its reference to a sister. So I'm confused about that.

And I would argue that you've heard a lot about the Bible, but haven't really studied it for yourself. The evidence in your posts is quite clear on that.

One must balance reason with emotion. It cuts both ways, for God speaks to us both ways.

HiJolly

I am the op..

SSMitchell88 is my sister.. the person who is asking all the questions.. I sent her the link so she could see the answers to her questions. and.. she joined in :)

[HiJolly]

I am the op..

SSMitchell88 is my sister.. the person who is asking all the questions.. I sent her the link so she could see the answers to her questions. and.. she joined in :)

Ah... Thanks for the clarificaton!

And when she says "And uh.. her sister is not going to get baptized" I'd take that to the bank. At least for the time being.

HiJolly

[boyando]

My sister has been asking alot of questions.. she is meeting with missionaries, but she still has alot of hang ups.. at times I wonder what her true intentions are, but my role as sister and lds member is to be supportive and answer to the best of my ability

so this is part of what she left on my page

she is all over the place in our discussions.. she has evolution theories, she tosses in pagan beliefs, buddhist ideals, and for good measure her catholic background.

so how would you respond to her statement..

This is what I would do, I think;

I would continue to testify, in word and in deed, (something I bet you are all ready doing).

I like to leave out little habit phrases that we some times get, like using the words "I testify unto you" and replace them with "I know". Here is an example; "I know" that if you continue searching, as hard as you are doing, you will find out that the Book of Mormon just adds to the knowledge found in the Bible.

You may want to find the quote by Joseph Smith, that talks about how there is truth in all religions, but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterdaysaints is the only church with the fullness of the Gospel. I am never good at finding quotes.

Don't forget that your best friends, when it comes to helping some one be converted to the Gospel, are love, prayer, personal revelation and faith.

For me, Faith is the hard thing, because of the little thoughts that creep in, from knowing some one. Thoughts like "in all the years I have known John, all he ever talked about was getting drunk on the weekend", how can he be converted? (John is a fictional character and is not based on any single person).

Remember (just as I must) that the Gospel of Jesus Christ, has the power to change lives, for the better.

boyando

[bytebear]

This article might be of interest. If your sister comes from a baptist background, it might help her see that the Book of Mormon actually embraces many of the doctrines and beliefs she is familiar with. If anything, you can prove the book isn't "bad" or "evil" as is often the case with people who are refusing to give it a fair shake.

The Baptist Version of the Book of Mormon - by Lynn ridenhour

[smitchell88]

I'm not baptist, either.

I don't think anything is bad or evil, I just don't think it's credible. The Book of Mormon, since it is a compromised source, is NOT legit evidence for anything. Again, we have records of the Hebrews, and of the Egyptians, the Chinese, Mesopotamian, Norse, Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, Aboriginee... the only

source for the Nephites and Lamanites is the BOM and your imaginiation. I am not asking for skeletons of the Nephites, I am asking for someone to explain why this is so credible when there is obviously nothing to stand on.

If someone is going to tell me they have the truth they need something to back it up, and I mean something solid, not just "But it all fits together! Go home and pray about it!" That's not solid. Religion is a serious issue to so many people. The LDS teachings contradict a lot of the basic, original teachings of those within the Judeo-Christian-Pantheon [though the main difference in those is the idea of Jesus Christ as a prophet rather than a Savior]. If I were a Muslim and converted to Mormonism, and Islam was really the correct path, I would be in serious trouble. Correct me if I am wrong here, although I am pretty sure I'm not, the purpose of Missionaries is to bring the "Good Word" to the whole entire world, and to convert them... Pretend for a second that the LDS faith is not the correct one. How do you think all this would go over in the afterlife??

I have a different kind of personality, so please don't take anything out of context. I am trying to have a mature debate so that I can understand why you say these things are true. Although to be honest with you I haven't gotten anything concrete, just examples. I do have some references I can put in later that I've had written down for weeks. . .

[Moksha]

If she can feel the Book of Mormon is true then all those other concerns go away.

God never promised us proof that any of the things He has said are true. But, we can feel the truth with the help if the Spirit.

Sounds good. Belief is of our choosing.

If she can feel the Book of Mormon is true then all those other concerns go away.

And if it feels good, then do it! :)

[Giant_Son]

I agree with your sister. It's obvious that evolution is true, that the age of the earth is in the billions of years. We watch evolution happen in labs across the world every day. For some LDS, this is a huge stumbing block.

I study everything I get the opportunity to study. Science and religion mostly. At the moment I'm learning more about the Hindu religion. Paganism, Buddhism and other traditions and/or religions have much truth that we can learn from.

And I'm an active LDS parent of 9 kids, etc. Since I believe in evolution I guess I can't say I'm TBM anymore, but I *feel* TBM...

HiJolly

HiJolly, don't let this be a problem for you. A TBM can still balance the reality of evolution with the Gospel. The Bible and modern-day scripture says nothing HOW God made the Earth, only that He is the Supreme Creator. We know WHY he created the world, but now HOW.

[rameumptom]

I love my sister, too. However, I don't believe there was ever a requirement for joining the LDS Church. I know the Bible fairly well - I grew up on Scripture. That doesn't change the fact that this faith is not exactly credible. It relies on faith only. I have done all the exploring I need, and have finally landed in a good spot. I just have a hard time understanding why the followers of the LDS faith believe things so steadfastly when next to your intuition and own personal FEELINGS there's nothing to stand on. It is very contradictory to the original Christian teachings which have not changed since the dawn of their time. I understand the Godhead, also, and it is not separate, it is all a part of the same. =\

This is a statement based on fallacy. This dog don't hunt. The majority of LDS beliefs that have been restored are actually ancient beliefs. You can read up on them in this great book by Barry Bickmore, Restoring the Ancient Church.

FAIRLDS.ORG has hundreds of articles and publications on how ancient things have been restored.

The "original" Christian teachings have not been taught for centuries by most Christian churches. For instance, the Trinity was not developed until the Nicea and Chalcydon councils, centuries after Jesus. Early Christian Fathers, like Origen and Eusebius of Caesarea, taught that God and Jesus were physically separate beings. You can look them up on Wikipedia, if you like, or read up on them at fairlds.org. I've spent 30 years studying early Jewish and Christian texts, and I find LDS-unique teachings frequently in their writings. Multiple levels of heaven? Not only does the Bible teach it (2 Cor 12:1-4), but many ancient Jewish and Christian texts also teach it, such as the Book of Enoch, the Apocalypse of Paul, and the Ascension of Isaiah (all available on the Internet).

An anthropomorphic God? Of course the Bible says God is a glorified man. He, himself, said that we are made in his image (Gen 1:26). Moses spoke with him face to face, and saw his back and body parts. Isaiah saw him sitting on his throne, as did Jacob. Stephen saw Jesus stand on the right hand of God. Jesus commanded us to pray to our Father, and stated we could be one with them (John 17) as they are one. Jesus is in the image of his Father, and Jesus is a resurrected being with a physical body -- which is more perfect, God as only a spirit, or God with a resurrected and glorified body (re: a man)? I don't think the scriptures could get any clearer than this, yet millions of Christians still choose to follow the creeds over what the Bible actually teaches and the early Christian Fathers wrote.

While people can claim they've "grown up on scripture", what that often means is they've read the Bible in light of the creeds their preacher teaches them. Many Biblical scholars today vehemently disagree with Protestant and Evangelical readings of the Bible, as it simply does not work. Bible scholars Margaret Barker (Methodist preacher and OT scholar), William G Dever, Bart Ehrman, and many, many others agree that the Bible says something very different than many Christians think it does.

[rameumptom]

I'm not baptist, either.

I don't think anything is bad or evil, I just don't think it's credible. The Book of Mormon, since it is a compromised source, is NOT legit evidence for anything. Again, we have records of the Hebrews, and of the Egyptians, the Chinese, Mesopotamian, Norse, Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, Aboriginee... the only

source for the Nephites and Lamanites is the BOM and your imaginiation. I am not asking for skeletons of the Nephites, I am asking for someone to explain why this is so credible when there is obviously nothing to stand on.

If someone is going to tell me they have the truth they need something to back it up, and I mean something solid, not just "But it all fits together! Go home and pray about it!"

There are good evidences for Mormonism. I recommend you do an indepth study of the articles and publications at fairlds.org as a start.

Your claim that there is no evidence, that it is our imagination, sounds like the claims of a preacher in the Book of Mormon, Korihor, who claimed the Nephites were affected by a frenzied mind for believing in Christ.

This can be said of the Bible, as well. There is no proof of any of the miracles in the Bible, beyond what the Bible and Book of Mormon establish as true. We can't prove the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Shall we then just all say "but it all fits together! Go home and pray about it!"?

If you make such claims of Mormonism, be honest enough to place the same strict requirements on Christianity, as well. Otherwise you are being disingenuous.