Seer stones

[Soul_Searcher]

I have spoken to several people about the use of seer stones/hats etc on the translation process. They all seem to be fine with it, and accept its normal. I was quite shocked to find this out really, and cast doubt on JS a Prophet (still some there). What I want to ask is, if this is ok and normal, why are we not taught this as we are with the urim and Thummim? Why not say, 'As we know, JS translated the BOM using many different methods...etc'. It seems like its not willingly broadcast like its contraversial or something? Why are we not taught this as a matter of course? I only ask as this seriously affected me when I found out.

[Traveler]

I have spoken to several people about the use of seer stones/hats etc on the translation process. They all seem to be fine with it, and accept its normal. I was quite shocked to find this out really, and cast doubt on JS a Prophet (still some there). What I want to ask is, if this is ok and normal, why are we not taught this as we are with the urim and Thummim? Why not say, 'As we know, JS translated the BOM using many different methods...etc'. It seems like its not willingly broadcast like its contraversial or something? Why are we not taught this as a matter of course? I only ask as this seriously affected me when I found out.

It is possible that the use of a seer stone (including Urim and Thummim) was not intended to be public. Therefore, on the few occasions in which those that should not have been involved attempted to describe something that they did not understand and thus it looks very fishy. One thing I have learned about sacred things – those that do not know or understand speculate – those that do remain quiet not casting pearls before swine.

The Traveler

[tubaloth]

I had a topic about this a while ago.

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/18608-seer-stone-used.html

Mostly for kind of the reason you explain (that there are some holes in the idea of the Seer stone).

By the end of the discussion and more study I finally reached a conclusion that stratified me. I don't know if its completely true or not, but for me it works.

They all seem to be fine with it, and accept its normal.

This is because there is no real account from Joseph Smith explaining how the U & T was used. But there is accounts from Emma and David Whitmer of the Seer stone. So because it was explained better, people (Scholars) tend to follow it easyer.

why are we not taught this as we are with the urim and Thummim?

Because of two points

1. Joseph Smith (and Oliver Cowdery) always said the Translation of the Book of Mormon was done through the U & T. And I still believe that most of the book of mormon was translated this way. How much is 51% I don't know.

2. Section 8 & 9 where we learn the most about the U & T is always brought up when we talk about Translation. So a lot of attention is given to these sections and how Oliver Cowdery tried to translate. There is no section in the D & C about the seer stone, if there was, we probably would have a lesson on it each year!

'As we know, JS translated the BOM using many different methods...etc'.

I'm thinking because if we do this, then it sounds like we really don't know what happen with the Translation. (That we are unsure) Which some of the details aren't know, we do know enough. Even though your statement really is correct, we want to have our story straight. (Even though its not as straight as I would like it to be).

It seems like its not willingly broadcast like its controversial or something?

It is. The U & T can be traced back to the Old Testament (even though it wasn't used to translate). Even though the U & T are called seer stones, the use of some stone found in a well is uneasy for some. But when we realize its common for a Stick (with Moses) or a ball (Liahona) to be used as an instrument for God's work, it doesn't seem that strange.

The rest of the Christian world has problems with it.

I only ask as this seriously affected me when I found out.

Sorry to hear that. But like was quoted in my other Thread on the topic

In this case, the process doesn't matter nearly as much as the product.

We still have Scripture coming from God!

Edited April 16, 2009 by tubaloth

[tubaloth]

It is possible that the use of a seer stone (including Urim and Thummim) was not intended to be public.

This is actually what Joseph Smith said.

Minutes: Brother Hyrum Smith said that he thought best that the information of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon be related by Joseph himself to the Elders present, that all might know for themselves.

Brother Joseph Smith, Jun., said that it was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon; and also said that it was not expedient for him to relate these things. (Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 vols. 1:220)

[Moksha]

It seems like its not willingly broadcast like its controversial or something?

I have tried to imagine one of the illustrations of the Seer Stone Enhanced Translation Process gracing the cover of the Ensign Magazine. Before this is ever done, it would be good to redo this theme in a heroic style like Arnold Friberg's paintings.

The controversy comes from this being at variance with pictures the members have seen for a long time.

I agree with Dr. Daniel C. Peterson, that there is nothing kooky about gazing into your hat, and that utilizing one stone as a translation mechanism is no different that using two stones conjoined together. As Dr. Peterson points out, you either believe the translation process by this medium or you don't. Most of us believe.

:)

[Snow]

What I want to ask is, if this is ok and normal, why are we not taught this as we are with the urim and Thummim?

Cuz you're not hanging around in the right circles.

If you hang'd with the with the eagles instead of the sheep, you'd have been in the know 10 years ago.

[Palerider]

I have known about this for sometime.....

[ruthiechan]

*face plants into desk*

*waits till stars go away before saying anything*

Okay, seer stones are Urim & Thummims!

Right here in the Topical Guide under Seer Stones it says, "See Urim and Thummim; BD Urim and Thummim"

Cha ching. So simple. They're the same thing.

Feel free to go do some reading on it via lds.org. There are lots of references. Ofttimes Urim & Thummim is only used to describe the seer stones in the breast plate, and other times it's used interchangeably to mean any seer stone consecrated unto the Lord.

Tubaloth, thanks for this, "The U & T can be traced back to the Old Testament (even though it wasn't used to translate). Even though the U & T are called seer stones, the use of some stone found in a well is uneasy for some. But when we realize its common for a Stick (with Moses) or a ball (Liahona) to be used as an instrument for God's work, it doesn't seem that strange." (emphasis mine)

Edited April 17, 2009 by ruthiechan

[Snow]

*face plants into desk*

*waits till stars go away before saying anything*

Okay, seer stones are Urim & Thummims!

Right here in the Topical Guide under Seer Stones it says, "See Urim and Thummim; BD Urim and Thummim"

Cha ching. So simple. They're the same thing.

Feel free to go do some reading on it via lds.org. There are lots of references. Ofttimes Urim & Thummim is only used to describe the seer stones in the breast plate, and other times it's used interchangeably to mean any seer stone consecrated unto the Lord.

Uh - No. The poster isn't asking about the U & T which had stones in them used by seers.

The poster is referring to the "peep" stone that Joseph found while digging a well for Willard Chase. The same stone that Joseph put in his hat to use to translate much of the Book of Mormon while NOT using the U & T.

[ruthiechan]

Uh - No. The poster isn't asking about the U & T which had stones in them used by seers.

The poster is referring to the "peep" stone that Joseph found while digging a well for Willard Chase. The same stone that Joseph put in his hat to use to translate much of the Book of Mormon while NOT using the U & T.

If it's a seer stone consecrated to the Lord then it is a Urim & Thummim. According to the Bible Dictionary Urim & Thummim means Lights and Perfections and that such are instruments prepared of God to assist man in obtaining revelation from the Lord and in translating languages. Using a Urim and Thummim is the special prerogative of a seer. It stands to reason that that is why we have the alternate name, seer stone.

Therefore your "'peep' stone" as you so eloquently called it IS in fact a Urim & Thummim.

Why do people have such a hard time with this? Do we not consecrate and use oil of the olive to administer to the sick? Do we not use all sorts of earthen material to build our Temples and then dedicate those Temples unto the Lord? Did Moses not use a plain ol' staff to show the wonders of God unto Pharaoh?

Joseph Smith very likely recognized the type of stone found in the well. He probably asked the Lord if it could be used as a Urim & Thummim. Mayhaps the Lord wanted him to have it because it was easier to travel with than the ones that were with the brass plates.

Whatever the case may be a seer stone and a Urim & Thummim are two names for the same thing. A special instrument, in this case in the form of a stone, to assist righteous seers to receive revelations from the Lord, no matter the geographical origins of said stone.

Edited April 17, 2009 by ruthiechan
clarification

[prospectmom]

Snow I go with your thoghts on this..... All can not be rounded up and called the same name...

[deseretgov]

Man this is a great thread! It's only nine posts long. There's so much good stuff. I'm going to have to research the seer stones more.

Parts I like:

Seer stones not supposed to be public.

Seers stones are a Urim and Thummim.

God uses a variety of objects to communicate, stones, sticks, balls, may I include papyrus(Book of Abraham).

[ruthiechan]

If you insist that a seer stone, or the stone that Joseph found in the well, to not be a Urim and Thummim, think of it as an extension of the Urim and Thummim.

Ponder this if you will.

We can all receive revelations from the Lord. We can receive any revelation in regards to what we have stewardship over. Just because the Prophet can receive revelation regarding the entire Church does not make our own revelations less significant or less powerful. They are still revelations from God.

The seer stone from the well may not be the Urim and Thummim found with the plates but it WAS consecrated unto the Lord and used to forward the works of the Lord as He saw fit. Therefore it is a valid instrument that was used to translate the plates of brass.

[deseretgov]

If I recall correctly everyone who lives in the Celestial Kingdom(or is it the Milllenium) will recieve a Urim and Thummim that will be a single stone.

[prospectmom]

The seer stone from the well may not be the Urim and Thummim found with the plates but it WAS consecrated unto the Lord and used to forward the works of the Lord as He saw fit. Therefore it is a valid instrument that plates of brass.

__________________

no one disagreed they were consecrated for the same usses just they were not the same thing.... now you agree ... that is a good thing:}

[Snow]

The seer stone from the well may not be the Urim and Thummim found with the plates but it WAS consecrated unto the Lord...

Oh? I hadn't heard that. When and where did the consecration take place. Who consecrated it? How do you find out about it?

[Snow]

Joseph Smith very likely recognized the type of stone found in the well. He probably asked the Lord if it could be used as a Urim & Thummim. Mayhaps the Lord wanted him to have it because it was easier to travel with than the ones that were with the brass plates.

... and mayhaps crop circles are made by alien big-foots from outer space.

Let's focus on the facts. Did Joseph in fact ask the Lord if it could be used as a Urim & Thummim? Did the Lord in fact want him to have it because it was easier to travel with than the ones that were with the brass plates.

Remember the critical thinking thread? Think about it critically for a moment.

Prior to becoming the prophet, Joseph Smith was a believer in folk magic as were many other uneducated folk in the area. When Joseph first became a prophet, he used the seer stone a lot. He outgrew it and stopped using it.

Obviously it wasn't the stone that was important.

[BenRaines]

Snow, I like the way you put it. He used a stone at some time in his life. Also Urim and Thummim. If he believed that it would work he could have used a pool of water in a hat or a bowl of water or smoke from a small fire. As he was learning and exercising his faith he used what he believed would work for him and allow him to translate.

Did God have to use a burning bush when he appeared to Moses? Probably not but that is what he chose to use. Cloud by day and pillar of fire by night to lead the Children of Israel.

Thanks for shareing Snow.

Ben Raines

[ruthiechan]

Thank you for your wonderfully condescending posts Snow.

If God did not want Joseph to use the seer stone from the well to translate the Book of Mormon then why on God's green Earth would God allow it? If it were not an instrument of the Lord then it would not have worked as one. It is my understand that all instruments of God are dedicated to a sacred purpose, hence it is consecrated, maybe not with oil or what not, but consecrated in some fashion.

From what I have read about Joseph Smith it does not seem that he is the sort of person to say, "Hey! A spiffy stone that looks like the ones in the breast plates. I can use this!" He seems the sort of person to ponder about it, mull it over, talk to his wife about it, and eventually pray about the use of the stone. Or maybe he saw it and prayed the moment he got the chance, I don't know. And that's the thing none of us really know.

The facts? Who here has all the facts? No one. The fact is that we do NOT have all the details on the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. We only have bits and pieces of it. But it's enough for people to freak out about if it's not their personal perception of how the translating went, even to the point of calling the seer stone a peep stone which has a negative connotation to the name. It's enough that Satan uses it to shake the foundation of someone's testimony in the Gospel.

Prospect's Mom, I still assert that a seer stone, assuming it is of the Lord unlike the one Hiram had in the Doctrine and Covenants, is a Urim and Thummim. However, people have this perception that there is only one Urim and Thummim on this earth and that's the breast plate that was with the brass plates. Hence I brought forth a different way of looking at it, that you clearly liked, to help the OP and others come to terms with the seer stone Joseph Smith used that was not in the breast plate.

This sort of specificity is not necessary to a person's salvation or exaltation. I felt inspired to shift the camera a bit on the subject to get a look at the subject from a different angle. The very idea of someone's testimony being shaken over this is horrifying to me.

Oh and before I forget, Snow, I've not heard of Joseph believing in folk magic. Then again, he was in his fourteenth year. Anyway, where did you hear that?

Edited April 17, 2009 by ruthiechan
capitalization

[deseretgov]

Well anything that is set apart for a special purpose is consecrated. Consecrated means being set apart. When you consecrate oil it is being set apart for its purpose. I imagine God could perform the consecration of any object fairly simply not required the procedure that we mortal pristhood holders use.

[talisyn]

*face plants into desk*

*waits till stars go away before saying anything*

Okay, seer stones are Urim & Thummims!

Right here in the Topical Guide under Seer Stones it says, "See Urim and Thummim; BD Urim and Thummim"

Cha ching. So simple. They're the same thing.

Feel free to go do some reading on it via lds.org. There are lots of references. Ofttimes Urim & Thummim is only used to describe the seer stones in the breast plate, and other times it's used interchangeably to mean any seer stone consecrated unto the Lord.

Tubaloth, thanks for this, "The U & T can be traced back to the Old Testament (even though it wasn't used to translate). Even though the U & T are called seer stones, the use of some stone found in a well is uneasy for some. But when we realize its common for a Stick (with Moses) or a ball (Liahona) to be used as an instrument for God's work, it doesn't seem that strange." (emphasis mine)

This is what I always understood as well.

I don't understand why people can get all up in arms about seer stones. If the Urim and Thummim and even those 16 stones found by the brother of Jared can be used for the Lord's purpose then why not other stones? People are way too quick to try to constrict the actions of Deity.

[Soul_Searcher]

Well, if you never heard it then heard he found a stone on a neighbours garden and used it to translate, as opposed to a special instrument planted there by Moroni hundreds of years before...Doesn't quite have the same 'romantic' image.

I want to try and accept this, but I'm grimacing at the thought of Joseph Smith using stones to translate a book. If you think about it from a lay persons point of view it does sound far fetched. Like...u really believe that? Saying it in my own head sounds ridiculous. I do believe in the book of Mormon tho. I just don't think it can be false. But the method of translation just doesn't sit right with me. What was it I read in D&C the other day-You will have a stupor of thought?? I have had it...so now I'm REALLY confused!!!

And by the way I'm still praying and asking if its true..like I do every day.

[Hemidakota]

I have spoken to several people about the use of seer stones/hats etc on the translation process. They all seem to be fine with it, and accept its normal. I was quite shocked to find this out really, and cast doubt on JS a Prophet (still some there). What I want to ask is, if this is ok and normal, why are we not taught this as we are with the urim and Thummim? Why not say, 'As we know, JS translated the BOM using many different methods...etc'. It seems like its not willingly broadcast like its controversial or something? Why are we not taught this as a matter of course? I only ask as this seriously affected me when I found out.

There two different forms of usage that aided Joseph Smith: Urim & Thummim [see Wentworth Letter] and later when he found a Seer stone in a local well, he used that instead. The Urim and Thummim was designed for people of larger statue, namely the people of Jared. [book of Ether].

A good start in understanding on how, who, when, and what was used is the PDF article you can find online - Joseph Smith: "The Gift of Seeing" by Richard Van Wagoner and Steve Walker. Volume 15, Number 2, Summer 1982

Richard Van Wagoner and Steven Walker, "Joseph Smith: 'The Gift of Seeing," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 15:2 (Summer 1982): 59–63. In Early Mormonism and the Magic World View (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1998), D. Michael Quinn argues that by 1829 Smith was using "biblical terminology to mainstream an instrument and practice of folk magic....There was no reference to the Urim and Thummim in the headings of the Book of Commandments (1833) or in the headings of the only editions of the Doctrine and Covenants prepared during Smith's life."(175)

Edited April 17, 2009 by Hemidakota

[tubaloth]

Let me jump back in here.

First, and probably where some of the uneasiness comes in is the Method of translation.

The Method of translating from the seer stone is different from what we know about the method of translation from the U & T. These two methods don't really fit together exact as we would like. Thus when we read about the method used with the seer stone, it doesn't fit the lessons we had on how Revelation (and Translation) happen found in Section 8 & 9.

The best answer for this is found in an Ensign article I found before.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - “By the Gift and Power of Godâ€

It really kind of brings both ideas together. I won’t go into detail about the different methods, that is for another thread. I leave the article to explain things.

Second, yes the U & T are seer stones. Joseph Smith also had a seer stone.To Joseph Smith they were pretty much the same thing, but there were two different things. I make that point, because during my reading to many authors tried to group them together. Even so much as saying that the U & T was put into a hat. Which is not true! To Joseph Smith the seer stone was LIKE a U & T.

My biggest hurdle was the simple question of why use a seer stone found in a well, when you have something prepare specifically from God for that given purpose? Even to the reason why the U & T was given to the Brother of Jared. For the purpose of translating lost languages.

It didn't make sense to me that the U & T was sitting on the shelf (collecting dust) and the Seer stone was used. In the other thread, I argued that U & T was a better tool (prepared by God) then something found in a well. But I couldn't find any reason for Joseph Smith to WANT to use the seer stone. (Something really of lesser power so to speak)

The idea that the seer stone is easier to carry does come up. But Joseph Smith didn't translate on the run. Most of the translations happen in couple of places.

The next argument is that the U & T was taken from Joseph Smith after the loss of 116 pages. I have yet to see any account that supports that idea. (Read my last post in the other thread).

Then I found this:

Maybe the answer is simple enough that Joseph Smith used both.

Now that still doesn’t sit well with me. Would Joseph Smith use the seer stone Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and the U & T on Tuesday, and Thursday?

But as I kept going through all the different accounts of the Uirm & Thummim I found this:

Quote:

We noted earlier that the Prophet Joseph used the Urim and Thummim for translation in some instances and not in others. We wish we knew more about this process. However, two items will help our understanding. The first is a statement from the Prophet himself with reference to receiving the Holy Ghost immediately after he was baptized. Remember, this was after he had already translated much of the Book of Mormon by means of the Urim and Thummim. The statement is as follows:

Immediately on our coming up out of the water ... we were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation. Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of. (JS-H 1:73-74)

It appears that having the Holy Ghost in such abundance after baptism was a greater aid in understanding "the true meaning and intention" of the scriptures than even using the Urim and Thummim had been before baptism.

(Susan Easton Black and Charles D. Tate, Jr., eds., Joseph Smith: The Prophet, The Man [Provo: BYU Religious Studies Center, 1993], 83 - 84.)

I don’t know why, but this kind of bridged the gap in my mind. I still don’t know if this is 100% the way things happen, but it does help bring into line all the different accounts.

So, Joseph Smith used the U & T up and until around the 3 Nephi section. Joseph Smith then is baptized, and maybe this was enough in itself to help Joseph Smith’s ability to translate now became easier? (if I can use that word). I have to think this probably fully didn’t happen until after he got the Melchizedek and the Holy Ghost a couple weeks later. But the time frame is close enough. Joseph Smith could have been for a time (a week or so) used both the U & T as he realized he might not need the U & T as he use to.

This was my final thoughts in the last thread. The reason Joseph Smith choose not to use the U & T as much is because now he had the gift of the Holy Ghost, or more the Melchizedek Priesthood. Before this time, it was really a non-member using the power of God! Thus, he needed some object to be a more powerful instrument. But once Joseph Smith had the gifts of the sprit more abundantly, then just maybe he realized he was pass the tutoring phase of the U & T. (And thus why the U & T was prepared for this purpose)

This also fits with the idea that the U & T was used to translate MOST of the book of mormon (up until ending chapters in 3 Nephi).

It also explains some of what David Whitmer saw, because it was near the end of Translation when Joseph Smith was in the Whitmer home for a time.

I wish other scholars (besides Susan Black) would jump on this idea. But for me this is the answer of how (and why) the seer stone was used.

(I was trying to leave it for others to read the other thread, but I can see that never happen).

Edited April 17, 2009 by tubaloth

[Moksha]

But the method of translation just doesn't sit right with me.

This is a potential sticking spot for some who see the world as always having an understandable underlying mechanism. Others chalk it up to being one of the mysteries that surround the Divine. Personally, I think there are more things in the Universe that are unknowable to me than are known (and no, that does not have anything to do with not having attended BYU ). That would include all things metaphysical to which this stone properly belongs.

Is it philosophically correct to cast doubt on things that are at this time unknowable? That would have been the case for the stuff we breath, for most of the history of the Ascent of Mankind. Hard to know air if we cannot see it, but it is present none the less. However our will to believe that something is there when we inhale has always been there, even when it was unknown. Same with the metaphysical.

:)