Drinks

[Vort]

I'm saying that your characterization is sanctimonious and over the top.

In what sense is it "sanctimonious"? How is it "over the top"?

Are you arguing that something I said was untrue?

It's not that I think drinking beer is alright - but if you had prophets and apostles doing it - how serious is it really...

Today, serious enough that those who drink beer -- even prophets and apostles, I daresay -- would not be allowed inside the holy temples.

is someone who lives, mostly, by the spirit of the WoW and is fit and healthy and has an occasional beer as bad of as someone who religiously avoids alcohol but has a rotten diet, does not avoid excessive, is out of shape, a diabetic with clogged arteries, etc?

I say that the latter is worse...

For purposes of entering the holy temple, the living prophets and your own bishop disagree with you.

Which is worse: Someone blessed with natural health and the knowledge to keep it who intentionally violates his covenants with God in small measure, or someone with neither a natural healthy constitution nor the knowledge to improve it, but who clings to the truths he has been given?

Which of those two is more likely to have the spirit of God with him?

but I don't use the self-righteous language for either.

No, it appears you employ your self-righteous language elsewhere.

[spiritseeker]

So, let me ask a yes or no question. Is soda allowed or not by the WoW? Is it the caffeine so non caffeinated is okay? Seriously I am a new member and I thought all soda was out. So what Is the answer?

[shirleyj]

Why do we drink water instead of wine at the sacrement, my husband is having a hard time understand this

[Vort]

So, let me ask a yes or no question. Is soda allowed or not by the WoW?

Yes. I mean, no. I mean, er, I don't think you've phrased the question so that it can be answered unambiguously with a "yes" or a "no".

Is it the caffeine so non caffeinated is okay? Seriously I am a new member and I thought all soda was out. So what Is the answer?

Soda pop of any stripe (that I know of) is not mentioned at all in the Word of Wisdom. It is not disallowed. Drink all you want; my personal preference is for Squirt, but I'll go for most things that aren't artificially sweetened or caffeinated. Caffeine is not mentioned nor disallowed in the Word of Wisdom; you may drink gallons of Jolt cola and pop No-Doz by the dozen and still get a temple recommend.

However, many members have wondered why coffee and tea are specifically disallowed, and have concluded that their caffeine content (and tea's tannin) are probably the reason God didn't want us drinking them. They have therefore determined to avoid all caffeinated drinks, not just coffee and tea. Since there is certainly no harm that comes from avoiding caffeine and probably some benefit, this seems like a reasonable practice (though second-guessing God's reasons doesn't sound like a sure bet).

Others go even further, reasoning that drinking highly sugared water (i.e. soda pop) doesn't do us a bit of good and simply makes us fat and unhealthy. They avoid soda pop altogether. Again, I think this is probably a reasonable, even a wise, practice. We should all show such wisdom as to avoid the intake of large amounts of soda pop, candy, popcorn, butter, and other things that are unhealthy in excess.

The problem comes when someone represents one of these "good ideas" as being mandated by the Word of Wisdom. They are not; they are reasonable extrapolations, or perhaps an example of living by the spirit of the law rather than merely the letter. But if I have decided that caffeinated drinks are very bad for my health and that I will avoid them altogether from now on -- even if God reveals that to be the case -- I still cannot claim that you are held to the same standard.

Bottom line: The Word of Wisdom doesn't say anything about soda pop or caffeine.

[Snow]

In what sense is it "sanctimonious"? How is it "over the top"?

Oh goody - let's play games, that would be ever so fun. It's sanctimonious because you said: "As a liar and covenant-breaker, that person would lose all rights to the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the divine protection of his covenants."

Are you arguing that something I said was untrue?

No - just self-righteous and unattractive.

Today, serious enough that those who drink beer -- even prophets and apostles, I daresay -- would not be allowed inside the holy temples.

Puts it into perspective... not only could Joseph Smith not be prophet, he couldn't even pass the sacrament in Sacrament Meeting.

[Snow]

Why do we drink water instead of wine at the sacrement, my husband is having a hard time understand this

Because wine has alcohol in it. Perhaps this will help him: Wine

[Vort]

In what sense is it "sanctimonious"? How is it "over the top"?

Oh goody - let's play games, that would be ever so fun.

Nope. No games, just sincere questions.

It's sanctimonious because you said: "As a liar and covenant-breaker, that person would lose all rights to the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the divine protection of his covenants."

Of course, this is a useless non-answer. "You're stupid because you're stupid."

(FYI: What you wrote is a rather unimaginative example of "begging the question".)

Puts it into perspective... not only could Joseph Smith not be prophet, he couldn't even pass the sacrament in Sacrament Meeting.

So why haven't you told President Monson how out of touch he is, along with the rest of the First Presidency and the Quorum of Twelve? Surely, your important insight must be heard!

P.S. prospectmom is your friend.

[TeancumsSword]

That is why Jehovah's Witnesses do not eat ice cream.

What an unfortunate thing to be a JW child and never have ice cream =(

Source? I believe you are repeating an unfounded rumor.

[prospectmom]

P.S. prospectmom is your friend.

Actually I do not know him very well but do appreciate his posts and appreciate the fact he answers my simple questions without going on the attack. What exactly was your point Vort????

[Snow]

Nope. No games, just sincere questions.

Of course, this is a useless non-answer. "You're stupid because you're stupid."

(FYI: What you wrote is a rather unimaginative example of "begging the question".)

So why haven't you told President Monson how out of touch he is, along with the rest of the First Presidency and the Quorum of Twelve? Surely, your important insight must be heard!

P.S. prospectmom is your friend.

I wonder if you use the same childish and self-righteous language (liars and covenant breakers) for people who don't always love their neighbor, or neglect to pay tithing, or don't care for the widows or who buy things on the Sabbath.

[prospectmom]

Its your turn Snow, Vort has been on the attack with me on another thread..... He seems to show the same amount of rudeness to you as he does to me...... You on the other hand are better adept at handling him than I am.....

[Vort]

Still dodging my questions, Snow? How sad.

I wonder if you use the same childish and self-righteous language (liars and covenant breakers)

Yet you still fail to explain how this language is either "childish" or "self-righteous". You seem to believe that your say-so is sufficient to establish truth.

for people who don't always love their neighbor, or neglect to pay tithing, or don't care for the widows or who buy things on the Sabbath.

You have forgotten, or perhaps are simply ignoring, the genesis of the comment. Jim asked:

On a more serious note. What would happen if a member of LDS faith were to indulge in a cold beer or the like. What is the consequence?

Note his phraseoloogy: "indulge in a cold beer". This is not a momentary fit of pique, like not loving your neighbor. This is not a hard decision about paying bills or buying groceries, like tithing might be. This is not a matter of self-centered nearsightedness or getting sucked into the gray edges of propriety. Popping oneself a cold brewski is an intentional, deliberate, clearly defined act of rebellion against what one has covenanted to do (or not to do). Thus, my response to Jim:

As a liar and covenant-breaker, that person would lose all rights to the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the divine protection of his covenants. If his behavior were known to his Priesthood leaders, he would also stand to lose his rights to enter the temple, and in some situations might be released from his calling(s).

You have still failed to tell me what is incorrect about what I wrote, or to provide any measure of its impropriety other than your own say-so.

[Snow]

Still dodging my questions, Snow? How sad.

Yet you still fail to explain how this language is either "childish" or "self-righteous". You seem to believe that your say-so is sufficient to establish truth.

You have forgotten, or perhaps are simply ignoring, the genesis of the comment. Jim asked:

Note his phraseoloogy: "indulge in a cold beer". This is not a momentary fit of pique, like not loving your neighbor. This is not a hard decision about paying bills or buying groceries, like tithing might be. This is not a matter of self-centered nearsightedness or getting sucked into the gray edges of propriety. Popping oneself a cold brewski is an intentional, deliberate, clearly defined act of rebellion against what one has covenanted to do (or not to do). Thus, my response to Jim:

You have still failed to tell me what is incorrect about what I wrote, or to provide any measure of its impropriety other than your own say-so.

Yeah - and the point stands. The language is self-righteous and childish. Painfully childish and demands for proof that it is are nothing but diversions. We've seen this time after time - some self-sanctimonious, judgmental pup pulls the same old ploy --- I am good and those that ______________ fill in the blank (in your case drink beer) are "liars and covenant breakers."

And at the same time that such self-righteous blackguards stand in unrighteous judgement of others, they themselves are breaking commandments by the handful - not paying tithing, not loving the neighbor, not feeding the widows, not keeping the Sabbath day holy, not being totally honest in all their affairs, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, And what do they say when challenged on their own sins? Oh - it was a "momentary fit of pique," or, uh, it was a "hard decision about paying bills or buying groceries," or I'm sorry, I was "sucked into the gray edges of propriety."

I'd take a beer drinker over a self-righteous hypocrite any day.

Edited May 10, 2009 by Snow

[Snow]

Its your turn Snow, Vort has been on the attack with me on another thread..... He seems to show the same amount of rudeness to you as he does to me...... You on the other hand are better adept at handling him than I am.....

Not to worry prospectmom,

He's young - he'll grow out of it - eventually.

[john doe]

Again, let's stop the nitpicking and bickering, or the mods will make it stop.......

[Moksha]

BEER...PROOF that GOD LOVES US!! ( I don't have the exact verse location for that, but I am looking for it....I am looking for it, it's got to be here somewhere) :lol:

Think it was from the poem, Mr. Flood's Party where they are singing a toast to the two moons.

[Wingnut]

Well I understand that but that said at the time he was the leader and prophet of the church. I'm not certain that non members would buy that as an excuse. A true prophet is a true prophet and when he says something where Thousands of people can here him say it then well doctrinal setting or no it might as well have been, Besides if the prophet said it then he truely believed it to be so and who would know the doctrine better than the prophet??

Lacie

Not even everything that is said over the pulpit in General Conference is considered doctrine. Please see here for a collection of quotes on the subject.

So, let me ask a yes or no question. Is soda allowed or not by the WoW? Is it the caffeine so non caffeinated is okay? Seriously I am a new member and I thought all soda was out. So what Is the answer?

Soda is not forbidden by the Word of Wisdom. Members who choose not to drink it (caffeinated or not) are making a personal choice. We are encouraged to avoid habit-forming substances, especially under conditions that could result in becoming addicted to them.

Why do we drink water instead of wine at the sacrement, my husband is having a hard time understand this

Joseph Smith was given a revelation in which he was instructed not to purchase wine any longer for use in the Sacrament ordinance. Read here: Doctrine and Covenants 27

Because wine has alcohol in it. Perhaps this will help him: Wine

See above. It was a specific revelation, not just "because wine has alcohol in it."

[ADoyle90815]

In some cultures, kava leaves are made into a tea like drink. It's not the same plant, so I'd assume that someone could drink that and maintain their LDS membership status.

[Moksha]

By show of hands, how many of you think that Diet Coke should be renamed, "Nectar of the Gods"?

[ploomf]

By show of hands, how many of you think that Diet Coke should be renamed, "Nectar of the Gods"?

Blasphemy!!!!!! Now if you want to take a vote on Diet Pepsi.......

[Faded]

Ok, since coffee, black tea, cola and alcohol are out, what do you all drink?

As previously stated, you're right about all but the cola one. It's not specifically prohibited. Probably best not to drink it though. I would advise to not drink cola, but if you do, it's not going to prevent you from getting a temple recommend because it's not specified. The GA's have been asked many times. They've refused to add it up to now. But I think the common sense answer is pretty obvious.

In work, i've found myself drinking raspberry and rosehip tea alot lately and then water of course. Is that kind of tea acceptable?

Herbal tea is fine. Green and black tea and tea similar to them is what has been specified.

How about other carbonated drinks? is everything frowned upon? I found this really good carbonated apple drink recently but I can't help feeling it's on the black list.

Again, not specified. Carbonated drinks are not particularly healthy for you body, so the spirit of the message of the Lord's Law of Health would lead one to conclude that carbonated drinks are out. Just bear in mind that if you go to an LDS activity and you bump into someone drinking a Pepsi, they are not violating the World of Wisdom. All observation of the Word of Wisdom beyond the specified letter of the law is a personal matter. The underlying message is to avoid things that are bad for you, but don't judge others for not interpreting and living it in the same way where the letter of the law is not specific.

Not sure how it is in your countries/states but almost everyone in Finland has a sauna bath in their house. It's really necessary to drink something more than just water afterwards (preferbly carbonated) to quench your thirst! Any tips pro LDS?

Have a Sprite. Gatorade works too. Whatever your heart desires, just no coffee, tea, tobacco, alcohol or illegal/addictive drugs.

Hope that helps.

[Maureen]

My LDS in-laws occasionally treat themselves to this incredibly awful stuff called ginger beer and ginger wine. Anyone else out there drink this stuff?

[Snow]

By show of hands, how many of you think that Diet Coke should be renamed, "Nectar of the Gods"?

aye, aye!

[beefche]

My LDS in-laws occasionally treat themselves to this incredibly awful stuff called ginger beer and ginger wine. Anyone else out there drink this stuff?

I'd like to. I'd also like to try apple beer.

[beefche]

By show of hands, how many of you think that Diet Coke should be renamed, "Nectar of the Gods"?

No way, no how. Diet Coke is nasty stuff. Diet Pepsi is fine, but the true ambrosia is Mountain Dew...from a can, not plastic bottle. Oh, love that stuff.