Difference between Telestial and Terrestrial

[Justice]

We are saved by grace through faith.

With a scriptural understanding of faith we realize that we cannot have faith unless we are exercising good works.

James 2:

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Very powerful teachings. It's interesting that he ties how misunderstood the word believe is also. Many say, all you have to do is believe. Well, the devils believe, even know that Jesus is the Christ, yet their works are evil, so they cannot exercise faith in the Lord.

It is by grace that we are saved. It is based on our faith because Jesus said that is the judging criteria. His Gospel is a Gospel of works. There is no getting around it.

Now, again, those works we perform do not earn salvation. We are lost and fallen, and our works cannot ransom us one iota. That work was Christ's. But, as a Christian, we must believe we have to keep our Lord's sayings, if we don't, then we aren't Christian.

[Jim108]

I think we agree.

You saying we have to keep the first 2 commandments is all I'm saying. It's not that they earn us salvation, I have never believed that. It's that we will be judged by it.

The main point I was trying to make is that we are saved by grace through faith, but you are saying yes to what I say and add only after we do all we can. In other words, you are saying we have to add to what Christ has already done to make salvation complete for us. This is where we disagree.

I really don't think we disagree. I think we just come from different backgrounds with a different vocabulary to express the same thing.

The "after all we can do" part is an expression of "we can't get there by ourselves." No matter what we do, no matter what we work (after all that we can do), we need Christ. All Christians should want to do good works. Not to earn salvation, but to show the Lord that we love Him. As your parable shows, it is He who decides will be on His right or left, however, He has given us the primary criteria He will use to judge us by... our works. That parable so clearly teaches that.

I agree that Christ is the only way. What I get discouraged by is when I see or hear Christians say they believe in Christ and are saved, yet they don't think they have to keep His commandments. It doesn't make any sense to me to believe Him, yet not believe what He says.

"Christians say they believe in Christ and are saved, yet they don't think they have to keep His commandments."

Justice, maybe you should say "some Christians believe this way". I do not know how you have come to this conclusion, but I can tell you the ones that I know do not believe this. It is a very wrong conclusion you have made and it is rude to the main stream Christian. Just as there are misconceptions about Mormonism, I can see that you have misconceptions about what you call "Christians" I have an open ear to hear about your view. You need to do the same. We need to understand each other with the best information. We need to love and understand each other.

[Justice]

Jim, I live in the Bible belt, and I have had many explicit conversations with many Christians, and I can tell you with all certaintly that many Christians believe they don't have to keep Christ's commandments to be saved. I hear it on the national radio shows I listen to, I hear it at work, on different forums I have visited in the past... I am certain I have their understanding right. It was a very difficult concept for me to understand.

If you do not believe this way, which I believe you do not, then we agree. I said I think we agree, and I mean it. However, I do not agree with the doctrine that all we have to do is accept Jesus in our heart one day and we are saved no matter what we do. I know there are many Christians that believe this. We cannot claim to believe in Christ and not feel the need to keep His commandments.

[Jim108]

I agree with you and I am sure there are some chirstians that believe that (if they are true christians) but I do not know of any. I believe that they are very few in number. Just as I am sure you have members in your church who are just dotting "I"'s and crossing "T"'s. We all have some members in our church who, for some reason, have not seen the light. But, believe me when I tell you that that is not the mainstream christian belief. Have you been to a church service other than an LDS service? It might be a good idea if you have not. I would also like to visit an LDS service. It would be good for me. Would they welcome an outsider?

[Justice]

Oddly enough, I have been to services of many, many other faiths, and those meetings are partly where I learned this doctrine. LOL

I knew a man for 20+ years and we had discussions all the time. This one in particular was interesting because each time we discussed this doctrine I had him nearly convinced his church was teaching him incorrectly. Then, on Monday, after talking it over with his dad, he was gung-ho that I was wrong again and we started all over. LOL

I had 2 roommates before I was married, they were twins. And many, many other people I have known over the past 30 years all believe this.

I'm sure you would be welcomed... unless you jumped up in the middle of a service and started yelling, "Lies!" :)

One thing to keep in mind about an LDS service is there is no paid ministry. The members who attend are "called" to serve at various positions, and they do so along with working and providing for their families.

What state do you live in, Jim?

[bytebear]

To really understand both sides, I highly recommend "How Wide the Divinde?". It explains both the LDS and Evangelical view of grace, faith and works, and you know what? They are pretty much in agreement. It just gets mumbled in the debate.

(oh, and visitors are always welcome at Sunday services, you can look up the locations and hours of your local congregation at mormon.org)

[the Ogre]

I have had an up and down life when it comes to religion. I was raised LDS and believed in it up until I was about 18. I began to question what was right, if anything. I began doing drugs and began denying that there was a God. Last year I was diagnosed with cancer and began studying the scriptures again. I have repented of all oth bad things I have done on earth. So my question is do I still qualify for anything above the Telstial Kingdom?

I get no say in this except to say, because I need forgiveness for the many things I have done I think you will be fine. God of course is the one who has the last say, but I think you will too.

If you have not yet, then forgive yourself.

[Jim108]

To really understand both sides, I highly recommend "How Wide the Divinde?". It explains both the LDS and Evangelical view of grace, faith and works, and you know what? They are pretty much in agreement. It just gets mumbled in the debate.

(oh, and visitors are always welcome at Sunday services, you can look up the locations and hours of your local congregation at mormon.org)

Hey, bytebear, thanks for this post. I think I will pick up a copy. You know, I think most of this divide is posturing. It realy is silly.

To Justice, I live in the State of Utah. So getting to a service is real easy.

[bytebear]

Hey, bytebear, thanks for this post. I think I will pick up a copy. You know, I think most of this divide is posturing. It realy is silly.

It's a good book, and I think you will enjoy it. It has certainly helped me understand the Evangelical side of theology much better.

[aj4u]

I think we agree.

You saying we have to keep the first 2 commandments is all I'm saying. It's not that they earn us salvation, I have never believed that. It's that we will be judged by it.

I really don't think we disagree. I think we just come from different backgrounds with a different vocabulary to express the same thing.

The "after all we can do" part is an expression of "we can't get there by ourselves." No matter what we do, no matter what we work (after all that we can do), we need Christ. All Christians should want to do good works. Not to earn salvation, but to show the Lord that we love Him. As your parable shows, it is He who decides will be on His right or left, however, He has given us the primary criteria He will use to judge us by... our works. That parable so clearly teaches that..

But do we really have to show God we love Him. Doesn't He know all things? He said to Peter, "If you love me feed my sheep." I mean were does it say in the Bible we have to show God we love Him? If we love God, it shows believe me.

I agree that Christ is the only way. What I get discouraged by is when I see or hear Christians say they believe in Christ and are saved, yet they don't think they have to keep His commandments. It doesn't make any sense to me to believe Him, yet not believe what He says.

Yes, I agree!

[aj4u]

With a scriptural understanding of faith we realize that we cannot have faith unless we are exercising good works.

On the other hand, you can have works without faith, but you cannot have faith without works. There is a huge difference such as night and day and spiritual life and death.

It is by grace that we are saved. It is based on our faith because Jesus said that is the judging criteria. His Gospel is a Gospel of works. There is no getting around it..

I am not sure what you mean by "His gospel is a gospel of works." To me, His gospel is a gospel of our faith and God's grace! Their is a huge difference between our statements.

Now, again, those works we perform do not earn salvation. We are lost and fallen, and our works cannot ransom us one iota. That work was Christ's. But, as a Christian, we must believe we have to keep our Lord's sayings, if we don't, then we aren't Christian.

I agree with what you appear to be saying here. Edited May 6, 2009 by aj4u

[Justice]

I am not sure what you mean by "His gospel is a gospel of works."

There are many scriptures in the NT that say this. I have posted a couple of them, one from James that says faith without works is dead.

So, if His Gospel is a Gospel of faith, it must also of necessity be a Gospel of works or your faith is dead.

I don't believe you can have faith and not have works. Here is a simple formula to demonstrate.

belief + works = faith

First you hear the word of God, then you believe it.

When you believe it you do it.

Until you do it, it is impossible to have faith. Many people misunderstand what faith is. Here's one of my favorite scriptures that shows this:

Hebrews 11:

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

With a cursory reading of this verse it sounds like faith is something you can hope for, or it is something not seen. However, with a deeper study you see this is not so.

Faith is the substance...

Faith is the evidence...

The substance of what we hope for is what we do to obtain it. For example, if we hope to have a garden we don't just sit and hope, or that's all it will ever be is hope. Now, if we get up and till, plant, water, nuture, and trust God to do the parts we can't control, we get a garden. This is exercising faith in having a garden, not just merely hoping for a garden.

The work we put into it is the substance of our hope. To tie James' words to this example, if we just sit back and do nothing, then our "faith is dead" and we will never have what we hope for.

In Christ's Gospel it is the same way. We hope for eternal life. If all we do is hope, then our faith is dead, or in fact, it doesn't exist. But, if we get up and make every effort to keep His commandments, and trust Him for the things we can't do, then our hope is alive in Christ, not dead.

John 14:

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

He's not talking about working toward salvation, because we can't do that. So, He is talking about works of belief, or faith. He said we must give to the poor, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc. Works of love; love of God and love of our fellow man. The Book of Mormon makes it more clear than the Bible does that these works of love are called Charity. Charity is the greatest of all, because it shows that we love God and our fellow man.

1 Cor. 13:

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

With a proper understanding of faith, the words of Christ become clear and it puts to rest the age-old discussion of faith and works. Because the truth is, you cannot have faith without works. However, as you pointed out, you can't have works without faith as well. If your hope is not in Christ for a better day, then your faith (what you work for) cannot save you (or it profiteth you nothing), because Christ is the way. We love God and our fellow man, therefore we do; we work. It really is that simple. This is faith. If we did not have faith, even though we believe, then we would sit idly by and do nothing, as the demons, because works is also part of the equation of faith.

Everyone who says we are "saved by grace through faith," is saying we must live the Gospel... and they don't even know it.

I'd like to hear your comments of faith, and what you think it is.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Justice

[teddyk]

Reading this thread I had a final accumulative effect, I've just now decided to no longer consider my self as "agnostic" I'll be making it so.

[Moksha]

Reading this thread I had a final accumulative effect, I've just now decided to no longer consider my self as "agnostic" I'll be making it so.

Which side has the balance been tipped too? Was it the part about Italian opera that was the deciding factor?

[aj4u]

I'd like to hear your comments of faith, and what you think it is.

I think Heb 11 gives a good definition of faith.

Faith comes by hearing the word of God.

The equation I would give might look like this:

Faith + works = 0 (does not equal heaven or right standing with God)

However,

Faith = works + heaven (does give us a righteous stand with God)

Do you understand were I am coming from now?

Edited May 7, 2009 by aj4u

[Justice]

I think so.

Let me ask you a couple of questions.

Does does sin affect our standing with God?

Does repenting affect our standing with God?

[aj4u]

I think so.

Let me ask you a couple of questions.

Does does sin affect our standing with God?

Does repenting affect our standing with God?

If we are not saved or not being saved, sin keeps us from comming to Christ; if we are saved, sin breaks our fellowship with God. Sin is anything that separates one from God. Sin absolutly effects our relationship with God. One can, however, have the sin of deception in their life and not know it. Edited May 7, 2009 by aj4u

[HEthePrimate]

I have had an up and down life when it comes to religion. I was raised LDS and believed in it up until I was about 18. I began to question what was right, if anything. I began doing drugs and began denying that there was a God. Last year I was diagnosed with cancer and began studying the scriptures again. I have repented of all oth bad things I have done on earth. So my question is do I still qualify for anything above the Telstial Kingdom?

Wandy,

I'm sorry about your diagnosis of cancer.

About your question, I wouldn't worry about what "kingdom" you might be going to (I know, easier said than done). You've repented, God loves you, and He'll take care of you. The older I get the more I suspect that the whole "Three Kingdoms" thing is metaphorical anyway, a way of saying that there is a place for everyone in God's Kingdom (except those who choose not to live there--the sons of perdition). Think in terms of "In my father's house are many mansions... " (John 14:2).

Some LDS have turned the whole concept of the three kingdoms on its head and now claim that anything other than being "exalted in the Celestial Kingdom" will be hellish. What a load of baloney! They are kingdoms of glory, after all! The Lord loves you, and will do everything in his power to see that you are happy.

HEP

[aj4u]

I have had an up and down life when it comes to religion. I was raised LDS and believed in it up until I was about 18. I began to question what was right, if anything. I began doing drugs and began denying that there was a God. Last year I was diagnosed with cancer and began studying the scriptures again. I have repented of all oth bad things I have done on earth. So my question is do I still qualify for anything above the Telstial Kingdom?

Wandy, I am sorry about the cancer. It is written, many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the Lord delivers them out of them all. By the way, It is also written "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. If we are present with the Lord, who cares what mansion we live in? I can tell you it will exceed your expectations. You must know Jesus as your Lord and Savior and nothing more. Ro. 10: 9,10. You can stand on these verses. He will put in you the will to do of His good pleasure. You have no need that a man teach you; look to the Bible, and judge teachings or other writings based on how well it goes along with it (The Holy Bible). Edited May 8, 2009 by aj4u

[Justice]

Sin absolutly effects our relationship with God.

I want to try to keep this discussion simple, because I tend to get wordy fast.

I have a LOT I’d like to share at this point, but I’m going to make three simple points to see if we agree.

Christ's atonement was infinite and eternal and covered all sin committed on earth.

So, if even one man does not gain eternal life, which we know will happen, then it MUST be conditional or dependant on us for something.

Because if it were totally dependant on Christ's works then all would gain eternal life.

Do you agree?

[aj4u]

I want to try to keep this discussion simple, because I tend to get wordy fast.

I have a LOT I’d like to share at this point, but I’m going to make three simple points to see if we agree.

Christ's atonement was infinite and eternal and covered all sin committed on earth.

So, if even one man does not gain eternal life, which we know will happen, then it MUST be conditional or dependant on us for something.

Because if it were totally dependant on Christ's works then all would gain eternal life.

Do you agreee?

I agree with the first two, but the answer to your last comment is not so simple. It is yes and no. For instance, many are called but few are chosen. That is probably because few choose to be chosen. Our salvation is totally dependant on what Christ did, but many are going to hell, because they are putting their trust in what they believe God wants them to do to complete the salvation package. They believe a doctrine that teaches them that Christ's blood isn't sufficient so you must add works to your faith to make Christ ransom of salvation effective or complete. That is the damned heresy. The Bible warns about that. It is back to the equation - they believe that faith + works = heaven. That is the lie from the pits of hell! It equals death. What the Bible teaches is faith = works + heaven. If the wrong equation is used in math to solve a problem, the problem will not be solved! I don't think I can make any clearer than this! If any can understand this, they are not in deception or far form the kingdom of God. Edited May 7, 2009 by aj4u

[Justice]

So, it's the belief that Christ's atonement isn't enough.

So, those who do the good works mentioned by Christ, because they believe since Christ said to do them it is necessary that they do them, are being lied into doing them by Satan?

I hope you understand that I am not being atagonistic, but I am trying to understand your point of view by rephrasing what I believe you are saying.

[aj4u]

So, it's the belief that Christ's atonement isn't enough.

So, those who do the good works mentioned by Christ, because they believe since Christ said to do them it is necessary that they do them, are being lied into doing them by Satan?

I hope you understand that I am not being atagonistic, but I am trying to understand your point of view by rephrasing what I believe you are saying.

I know you not trying to antagonize me. Let me try to explain it this way, when James said; "Faith without works is dead" he means it is impossible to have faith without good works. In other words, if someone says they have faith and there are no good works, he is a liar and his faith is dead. In other words, he has no faith. As I mentioned, you can have good works without faith, but you cannot have faith without good works. This is such an important concept to grasp. It is truly a matter of urgent spiritual significance. If anyone is telling you different than this run from it as fast as you legs can carry you, and let it be accursed.

[Justice]

OK.

So, are you saying it is not necessary to have faith in Christ, since faith requires these good works?

[aj4u]

OK.

So, are you saying it is not necessary to have faith in Christ, since faith requires these good works?

I am not sure I understand your question. If I do, I would answer No, I am saying just the oppposite. Good works without faith in Christ is dead works. It will certainly not do any good toward remisson of sin and salvation of your soul. As faith without works is dead so is works without faith in Christ. It is dead works indeed. As I mentioned, Satan would have people believe that they need to add good works to validate their faith for salvation. When the truth is all they need is faith and God's grace who puts in them the desire to do of His good pleasure.

In other words, If you really have faith in Christ, good works will be a spiritual spring welling up within you, and God gets the glory, but if you do this equation any other way, man is getting the glory and not God; therefore, any works comming from this situation is what Satan uses to destroy people. The road to hell is paved with many good intentions! Good in this case is the enemy of what is best! It is written, "The just shall live by faith."

Edited May 8, 2009 by aj4u