Difference between Telestial and Terrestrial

[X_Girl]

We both know Jesus as our Savior, we taught our children to love and obey His teachings, but we are not concerned about the levels there might be in heaven because Jesus never told us to be concerned with it. So why is anybody tripping off with it?

I agree with you completely. Why is it that they say we have to do this or that to my daughter in church, so that we can be together again.

[Dravin]

I agree with you completely. Why is it that they say we have to do this or that to my daughter in church, so that we can be together again.

Because God said that's the way it is? I know you don't believe such but that's why it's said, not the hardest of concepts. Kinda like why the Muslims say we need to abstain from pork or the Catholics say we need to stay away from red meat on Lent (IIRC). Or why all Christians say we need to have faith in Christ.

In the case of temple Sealings being a requirement for continued family sociality in heaven it's because we believe the below is scripture, you are of course free to disagree.

And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by frevelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this hpower in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

Edited May 15, 2009 by Dravin

[aj4u]

I won't begin to rip into the bible and the countless errors known since there are typos in the earlier edition of the book of Mormon. Let alone the missing books and not to forget other diver prophets that was intentionally left out by those who claimed the right for canonization.

How many times was the Book of Enoch mentioned in the bible? Now, where is the Book of Enoch and why is not included? Do you also know, the 3rd Book of John is older than the Apocalypses [Revelations] of John? That is a chance the tip of the iceberg....

If everyone believes the Bible like I do, they believe that all Scripture inspired by God or all Scriptures are inspired by God and are good for correction and reprove in the Lord. You might have Christians interpreting the Bible in different ways resulting in different denominations, but a people united to sound doctrine about Jesus and who He is and who we are in relationship to Him. On the other hand, if you believe the Bible can be ripped into such as you mentioned, that leaves room for serious error in sound doctrine conducive to spawning cults like crazy as we have today. Edited May 15, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

I agree with you completely. Why is it that they say we have to do this or that to my daughter in church, so that we can be together again.

I am glad you agree. There is a huge difference (Life and death) between faith in Christ and regiously following unecessary rules and laws that God never put on us in the new covenant. Those who follow the law and rules as a means to being right with God have been bewitched as Paul said in the Bible. They have falling from God's grace and will be judged on whether they have followed the law perfectly or not. It is doctrine of foolishness. Edited May 15, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

Because God said that's the way it is? I know you don't believe such but that's why it's said, not the hardest of concepts. Kinda like why the Muslims say we need to abstain from pork or the Catholics say we need to stay away from red meat on Lent (IIRC). Or why all Christians say we need to have faith in Christ.

In the case of temple Sealings being a requirement for continued family sociality in heaven it's because we believe the below is scripture, you are of course free to disagree.

As I mentioned, there is a huge difference (Life and death) between faith in Christ and regiously following unecessary rules and laws that God never put on us in the new covenant. Those who follow the law and rules as a means to being right with God have been bewitched as Paul said in the Bible. They have falling from God's grace and will be judged on whether they have followed the law perfectly or not. It is doctrine of foolishness.

[aj4u]

Because God said that's the way it is? I know you don't believe such but that's why it's said, not the hardest of concepts. Kinda like why the Muslims say we need to abstain from pork or the Catholics say we need to stay away from red meat on Lent (IIRC). Or why all Christians say we need to have faith in Christ.

In the case of temple Sealings being a requirement for continued family sociality in heaven it's because we believe the below is scripture, you are of course free to disagree.

There is a huge difference (Life and death) between faith in Christ and regiously following unecessary rules and laws that God never put on us in the new covenant. Those who follow the law and rules as a means to being right with God have been bewitched as Paul said in the Bible. They have falling from God's grace and will be judged on whether they have followed the law perfectly or not. It is doctrine of foolishness.

[aj4u]

David Berg was a false prophet. Woe, unto self-appointed prophets all of them.

[aj4u]

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

17They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

18For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?

19Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.

20The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.

21I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

22But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

23Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?

24Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

25I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.

26How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;

27Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.

28The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.

29Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

30Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.

31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.

32Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.

Edited May 15, 2009 by aj4u

[bytor2112]

No, but you may be filled with a deep sense of regret when you realize what you chose not to accept.

You should continue the discussions with missionaries and ask them to explain these things to you. This is not the best venue to learn sacred truths or to make eternal decisions.

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I can recall asking missionaries questions about the 3 heavens as I have asked here... and they (being "youngers" rather than "elders") didn't have answers. I understand their training is somewhat limited. I thought someone HERE might be able to explain why your scriptures teach BOTH the 2 destinations-ONLY idea (Rev. 20:15 and 21:24-27) and Doctrine and Covenants 101:65-66.... and ALSO the D&C 76 3 degrees of glory. No answers? No wonder this person is not "getting" the 3 degrees of glory thing. Neither am I.... if there are no answers to this seeming contradiction.

Pilgrim

Pilgrim...are you LDS? Your profile states that you are....you don't sound like it. The Lord is speaking about gathering the faithful and reference the parable of the wheat and the tares.......you know when the earth will be cleansed....and reminds them that the faithful will receive Eternal Life in the Celestial Kingdom. Sounds like you don't want to get it...if you are a member as you claim, perhaps some time on your knees in prayer might help.

[bytor2112]

I agree with you completely. Why is it that they say we have to do this or that to my daughter in church, so that we can be together again.

Because it is true. Because we want to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with you......so that you can receive the all of the blessings the Lord has in store for you.

[bytor2112]

As I mentioned, there is a huge difference (Life and death) between faith in Christ and regiously following unecessary rules and laws that God never put on us in the new covenant. Those who follow the law and rules as a means to being right with God have been bewitched as Paul said in the Bible. They have falling from God's grace and will be judged on whether they have followed the law perfectly or not. It is doctrine of foolishness.

Your comments sound like you are referencing our beliefs AJ? Not very nice to call our doctrines....the doctrines of God.... foolishness. Might want to rephrase your comments?

Edited May 15, 2009 by bytor2112

[Dravin]

There is a huge difference (Life and death) between faith in Christ and regiously following unecessary rules and laws that God never put on us in the new covenant.

I disagree that one they are unnecessarily, mostly because I disagree that two they aren't from God. You are of course entitled to your opinion.

David Berg was a false prophet. Woe, unto self-appointed prophets all of them.

I don't see anyone maintaining that David Berg was a prophet. I agree, woe unto self-appointed prophets.

[the Ogre]

I don't see anyone maintaining that David Berg was a prophet. I agree, woe unto self-appointed prophets.

It was a jibe at LDS prophets. It's happened before. AJ isn't first or last to accuse us of following false-prophets.

[Justice]

It was a jibe at LDS prophets. It's happened before. AJ isn't first or last to accuse us of following false-prophets.

I'm not sure Ogre. I have been watching him closely. I'm not sure he's fully realized where he is or who we are. If he has... well, I won't get into that.

[Hemidakota]

I believe and have the faith that God is in control not man. What is in the Bible is what God intended to be in it. I accept this by faith. Now, why should I believe that that is not the case? Because it is what you say?

No! But my friend and brother, the Holy Ghost can attest to it and ensure a confirmation of what is truth. Something that you will not find in any church or book.

Now that the Bible is complete, where are the writings of Adam to Moses?

[Hemidakota]

If everyone believes the Bible like I do, they believe that all Scripture inspired by God or all Scriptures are inspired by God and are good for correction and reprove in the Lord. You might have Christians interpreting the Bible in different ways resulting in different denominations, but a people united to sound doctrine about Jesus and who He is and who we are in relationship to Him. On the other hand, if you believe the Bible can be ripped into such as you mentioned, that leaves room for serious error in sound doctrine conducive to spawning cults like crazy as we have today.

Exactly...there is but one gospel, one Christ, and one church [organization]. Anything else is an occult. Being a convert, there is but one way to determine among all the sects today, who does belong to the GOD and the Savior by prayer and await for the divine answer.

Edited May 15, 2009 by Hemidakota

[aj4u]

There is no need to watch me so carefully. I will be transparent. I have nothing to hide. I have never said anything against your prophet Joseph Smith or any Mormon leadership. You were just reading between my lines. I, on the other hand, was told that I was not discussing anything, and that I am merely expressing opinion when everything I shared was Scriptural. From now on, I will carefully quote every Scripture. My post, however, will be fewer and further between to do it. I have never attacked any person on this forum or accused anyone of being insulting. I was told that I was patronizing and below the level of understanding LDS doctrine. Justice said he was slow so I explained to him the implication of a certain Scripture Heb 1 in such a way that someone who is slow could understand. I thought I was being thoughtful and sharing in love. Instead I am accused. I have ask many questions some about LDS doctrine and that haven't been answered. I will make one more post after this after looking at the website Ogre gave. Than I will stop responding or posting for a day to pray and compose myself. I think we should be able to attack each other's doctrine but not the person. This is a beautiful forum and it has so much potential to strengthen people's faith. I love you all. I could not sleep for three nights and their are tears on my pillow. I am on it because God directed me here. I love challenges and to give challenges. I will now share my testimony. People have used it against me in the past, but I trust you are not like that. David Berg was considered to be a prophet.

I was in a cult called The Children of God. I just wanted to grow in God. I was born and raised a Catholic, and I was faithful in all I knew to try to grow in the Lord. I joined this group because they were living like the NT disciples. They forsook all their worldly possessions and parted them to each member of the group or the governing body as every man or woman had need. I was young and had a good job working for Con Ed in New York. I had a nice new car and lots of money saved, because I lived with my parents and didn't have to pay rent. I also had many possessions. For my age, I was wealthy compared to my friends. I gave it all up to join the group and went against my family and friends believing that my family was the enemy (A man’s foes shall be those of his own house hold as Jesus said) to keep me from serving the Lord. I felt challenged to give up all I had. As painful as it was, I did it because I wanted God to be first in my life not an organization or a person on earth - just Him.

That was the start of my horrors. I prayed night and day for confirmation that I was doing the right thing, and a sister came over to me to share a verse that I thought God inspired her to do. It encouraged me that I wasn't in a cult. I had lots of money but gave it to them; now, I am without old friends and family. I was poor - a beggar in the streets peddling. I had to go out every day to pass out literature to make money for the community of believers. I sometimes went on road trips to live by faith like in the book of Acts and stayed with whoever would take me in. Once we slept in a hallway because we couldn't find a place. We usually went out in twos or threes.

When we studied the group's prophet's work (David Berg /claimed to be the End Prophet), false doctrine mixed with truth would come out. It was called the new wine (JWs might call it new light). We had to be new bottles to handle it, and if it stumble us, we were considered to be old bottles that burst or immature Christians. No one wanted to be an old bottle.

I found a woman (she found me) and married her, but the group believed that the disciples have all things in common including spouses, and I had to share mine. I could only do it because I was brainwashed to believe God wanted me to. The scars run deep. I couldn't tell this story to you in person without breaking down. I can’t describe the mental torment I went through. I wanted to leave the group so badly, but where could I go? I believed that I would be leaving God’s will. I was a slave or prisoner to false doctrine and trapped. My family disowned me. I lost my daughter because of how much that experience screwed up her head. My wife was a basket case.

We wanted to have a large family, but she got some kind of infection from the lifestyle we thought God wanted us to live. We never had any biological kids. The step daughter I lost was my wife's before she joined the group or knew me. My wife was in it for over a decade and I for 6 or 7 years. One day, an ex-member left me something to read, and the Lord spoke to me through Revelation 2:18 on what Jesus said to the church of Thyatira. When I got out, I thought and asked "Lord why did you let this happen when I was only trying to please you?" Why did you forsake me? I felt like an empty shell of a person. But I said to the Lord “I will still trust you Lord” as weak as I was - that’s all. And I can tell you that after that, I continued to have profound disappointments. For instance, after my wife had surgery for her damaged body from that group, she got pregnant and missed carried and did two other times as well after much prayer. Most anyone would tell me I was a fool to keep on trying to live for God, and I felt like a fool for Christ. If someone said, "I was a fool", I would say "Yes, but who are you a fool for?" So, I have chosen with my free will to continue being a fool for Christ, and I have chosen with my wife to continue to trust Him and not let that stupid organization separate me from the love and hope I have within me.

I don't expect JWs or Mormons to understand my choice to continue to trust God even if He kills me. Because I believe he could raise me up again. God has never really failed me. He has strengthened me through this. The things (as Paul says) I suffered here are not worthy to compare to the glory I will witness one day. I do not want to throw away my confidence that has a great recompense of reward. I am a soldier for Christ. Even if I am a wounded soldier, I am still a soldier, and I am His and have been bought with a price. I will not let another man or organization steal my crown. Don’t let them bring you down. When you want to serve the Lord you are entering a battleground. It is war against spiritual wickedness in high places. We have to fight the good fight of faith and the gates of hell won’t prevail. Jesus knows what I am going through. He even said, “Father why have you forsaken me.” I ask God for forgiveness about my not trusting Him. He was waiting with open arms. He will never leave me or forsook me and never will. He would rather go to hell with me than go to heaven without me. When you have Jesus in your heart, you are prefect before God. Nothing can separate us from the love of God. God wants to use your experience to heal others. That is what I believe. Your time was not wasted in WT. God has all you pain and suffering documented. He will repay them for the deception in your life, and God will bless you for all you suffered for Him by restoring all the worms have destroyed. I might be a product of my past, but I don't have to be its slave. Job said, "Lord even if you slay me yet will I trust you." It is not too late if you are reading this. God bless and kept you in Jesus name. I now know that in order to bring about the beauty of the candle something had to go to ashes. Jesus has given me beauty for ashes.

Edited May 15, 2009 by aj4u

[prospectmom]

Thank you aj4u for sharing you story and I am proud tha you prayed and listened and found your way out.... I believe people are brought into ourlives for a purpose and I am glad you are here. I am proud you did not turn away from God because of the Cults damage. I can see that you have no agenda but to fellowship and share and learn....... Luckily on this site we all are allowed different beliefs and opinions.... I appreciate yours even if I do not agree with them all.... You are my brother in Christ and we all need to uplift and help each other. Your fine here and do not let the nay sayers get you down.... I pray for you peace and happiness ..

[Justice]

I don't expect JWs or Mormons to understand my choice to continue to trust God even if He kills me.

Do you know any of the history of persecutions the members of this church have endured?

This coment makes me think you don't.

Trust me when I say that I understand.

[aj4u]

Exactly...there is but one gospel, one Christ, and one church [organization]. Anything else is an occult. Being a convert, there is but one way to determine among all the sects today, who does belong to the GOD and the Savior by prayer and await for the divine answer.

This I have done! And I am and you are sincere, but one of us is sincerely wrong. Why would God show you the right way and not me? He is not a respector of persons.

[aj4u]

Do you know any of the history of persecutions the members of this church have endured?

This coment makes me think you don't.

Trust me when I say that I understand.

I believe they have gone through great persecution and doubt not, but so have the Jews that doesn't make them right or me. That is why I just trust the Scripture only.

[Pilgrim2]

Pilgrim...are you LDS? Your profile states that you are....you don't sound like it. The Lord is speaking about gathering the faithful and reference the parable of the wheat and the tares.......you know when the earth will be cleansed....and reminds them that the faithful will receive Eternal Life in the Celestial Kingdom. Sounds like you don't want to get it...if you are a member as you claim, perhaps some time on your knees in prayer might help.

- - - - - -

Perhaps I didn't hit the right button...when choices of faith were given, LDS and Christian were lumped together....so I chose that option. I am Christian, but very interested in LDS doctrine (as I stated in an earlier post) for gaining ability to witness to others (including ones in my family). I will say that I have appreciated the open-ness of this forum. I am aware that D&C 101:65-66 is a parallel to Matthew 13's parable of wheat and tares... (also, two crops). So the point is? I am willing to hear any explanation LDS have to present.... I just haven't heard any yet that explain the contradictions. How can there be 3 or more options if it all boils down to "name in book" or "name not in book" as REv. chapters 20-21 say?

Mrs. D

[Pilgrim2]

Rev 20:15:

Being written in the Book of Life is synonymous with going to the celestial kingdom and the lake of fire is not obtaining Celestial glory.

Rev 21: 24-27:

Is talking about when the earth obtains a celestial glory, so if you aren't written in the book of life you won't be there, you'll be elsewhere.

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(Thanks for response, but.... "the ELSEWHERE" you just mentioned is called the lake of fire (20:15), NOT "telestial" or "terrestrial" GLORY. The fire will not be glorious.)

D&C 101:65-66:

Continues the theme of burning as not obtaining celestial glory.

As for why the Lord doesn't say, “If you don't obtain Celestial glory you'll go to this place called the Terrestrial or Telestial kingdom which while not as nice as the Celestial Kingdom you'll find comfortable and probably pretty nice compare to earth in those scriptures? I could see somebody who is doing their best to live a Celestial Life (John) when seeing the realities of a telestial life in vision thinking its a pretty miserable substitute for the Celestial and describing it as a lake of fire to encapsulate his feelings that its not really where you want to go but that this Celestial place is much preferable and where you want to go. Its also possible that the vision depicted it that way to impress the not ideal nature of not obtaining Celestial Glory.

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Not ideal? What a euphimism. Matt. 13 speaks of BURNING, a furnace of fire, wailing and gnashing of teeth. Only SATAN would want to play down such a scenario, I'd say!

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I suppose none of us will really know if the pain and realization that you threw away your 3rd estate when you could be living with Christ and Heavenly Father could be described as a lake of burning or not, not in this life anyway.

Don't know if its the answer, but it is a answer.

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It's NOT an answer if one looks at what the scriptures SAY. D&C 76 presents even the Lowest (telestial) world as a place the glory of which surpasses all understanding (76:89) This does NOT fit with "lake of fire", burning, gnashing of teeth, etc. Mosiah 5:5 calls it never-ending torment and the WRATH OF GOD. This is anything BUT "glory".! ! !

The uncertainty here is more than troublesome. I've had another LDS man tell me the divisions were different (the good destination includes all 3 glories) and also been given your answer. Neither fits what the Bible says. You'd think the modern revelations would clear this up rather than muddy it up. It is more than troublesome in that one who can't tell the story right about what is beyond this life should not be trusted to tell you how to gain the good place(s) beyond this life.

Mrs. D

[Dravin]

It's NOT an answer if one looks at what the scriptures SAY. D&C 76 presents even the Lowest (telestial) world as a place the glory of which surpasses all understanding (76:89) This does NOT fit with "lake of fire", burning, gnashing of teeth, etc. Mosiah 5:5 calls it never-ending torment and the WRATH OF GOD. This is anything BUT "glory".! ! !

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it not an answer.

It's called hyperbole and I have not issue with John using it. I can have a Lamborghini Diablo and I can have a Suburu Outback, comparing the two I can call the Suburu a piece of scrap metal, it's still a fully functioning and decent car on its own right. There is precedent for using really strong language to get the point across such as in D&C 19, namely, " wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory."

There is also the possibility that John wasn't trying to teach the nature of the three degrees of glory and was using the simpler Heaven vs. Hell dynamic to make his point. Kinda like when Jesus was accosted on the issue of marriage in the resurrection he didn't go into a dissertation on priesthood authority but rather answered the question simply (but not completely) and moved on to the heart of the issue that being the truthfulness of resurrection.

[Dravin]

I believe they have gone through great persecution and doubt not, but so have the Jews that doesn't make them right or me. That is why I just trust the Scripture only.

He's not saying we're right because we've been persecuted in the past, he's saying you aren't the only one willing to follow God even it it means death and various other unpleasantness. I don't think any denomination has a monopoly on that.