Heavenly Mother

[the Ogre]

Do we have a Heavenly Grandfather, Great Grandfather? If we do, why don't we mention them? Why don't we worship them?

Oh my . . . because the answer's the same and OBVIOUS!!!

We are commanded to worship our F-ther in H-aven. No one else, not even our S-viour to whom we owe everything. Why complicate the stupefying?

personal note: You could not hear, but the air is still heavy in my apartment with the WT- I let loose when I read this post. Of all the completely pointless asides!!!

Plenty of people have answered the OP intelligently, was this necessary?

GRRRR

Edited May 17, 2009 by the Ogre

[Hemidakota]

It's not taboo, but understand that Margaret Toscano was excommuniated. Not because she talked about Heavenly Mother, but because she taught and preached things that were not doctrine as if they were. Particularly, she encouraged prayer to Heavenly Mother, contradicting what we know about the proper method of prayer, that is, we pray to Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ. She also has a very big chip on her shoulder.

Correct! Indirectly, we can communicate as part of our daily communication but not a formal reporting type prayer or part of the church's official prayers.

[Hemidakota]

I don't know if this is a topic anyone will discuss but , I wanted to ask after reading a recent article off the web. It was by a Professor Toscano of the University of Utah. It was entitled " Is there a place for Heavenly Mother in Mormon Theology?" The article discusses the doctrinal basis for Heavenly Mother in LDS doctrine. But she talks about a survey done where the majority of LDS polled said that it was forbidden to talk about Her by the GA . But she goes on to say that no where though is there a statement from the GA that says this.... She made one statement that hit me and I was wondering what you all thought about it. Here is the statement; "While some regard the need for silence about the Heavenly Mother as reverance , absolute silence about Her does not protect Her , it erases Her." I am a new convert so if this post is taboo please have the mods delete it.

SHE is real...SHE is concern over HER flock...SHE listens....SHE could interact with a few of HER children only when necessary through the appropriate channels.

[bytebear]

SHE is real...SHE is concern over HER flock...SHE listens....SHE could interact with a few of HER children only when necessary through the appropriate channels.

She is real, and certainly she has concerns for her children, but beyond that, anything else is speculation. and should not be taught as fact. The intermediator to God the Father is Jesus Christ, and the deliverer of spiritual answers is the Holy Ghost. We simply have no idea what her role is. Even the creation story and the plurality within it is the Godhead. Yes, we can assume that the female image is taken from her, but betond that we know nothing.

Toscano was excommunicated not because she believed what she believed, but because she usurped the authority of the church and its leaders. She believed her theories and ideas were fact, and appointed herself an intelectual prophetess. But she was not called of God by prophecy and the laying on of hands (A of F 5). And now she doesn't even have the gift of the Holy Ghost to guide her.

[Moksha]

Wish we has a definite name for a Heavenly Mother, such as Gaia, Thea, Goddess or even Brandy.

[bytebear]

Wish we has a definite name for a Heavenly Mother, such as Gaia, Thea, Goddess or even Brandy.

Does it really matter? Christ is a title, not a name. Eloheim is the plural of El which means God, so Heavenly Father doesn't have a name. We don't know the true pronounciation of Jehovah, or YHWY, or whatever. Even Jesus is pronouced hay-soose in Spanish, and is a very common name. Every language has a different name for God, so take your pick.

[Maya]

First thank you spirit seeker for thid thread. It has been interesting.

I strongly believe that we have a Hevenly Mother and I also believe her task IS a bit more than making spirit children. I believe she is a very inteligent person and our Hevenly Father many times asks her advice and discusses with her, even though the decitions lay on Him.

We are told to pary to our HF in JK name. I cant understand why someone would pray to HM?

Sometimes I get a bit ... irked... when guys act so "only us guys are important" only we know, this is not for you women.... I think some guys should pay more attention to what women say! But that is not only in our church... it is a common feature.

Truth is women have been under mans power, even property for ages, but that was not the meaning. LDS church is closest to the real origin and purpose of a woman, but stil we do not know enough to agnowledge womans whole purpose in eternity. And the treatment of women on this earth has not been encouraging.

[bytebear]

It is interesting that no level of priesthood authority (bishop and up) is given to a man without a wife. I an sure the wives of bishops, stake presidents, seventies, apostles and prophets all know the great sacrifice and work it is to have such a role. I believe the men are formally set apart, but that the calling is definiltely a joint venture, just just for the husband and wife, but for the entire family. They must all be prepared for the sacrifices and challenges of having the father in such an authoritative position. I think the same is true of Heavenly Father. He cannot carry such authority without the influence of a rightious eternal wife. It certainly brings new meaning to 1 Cor. 11.

[Snow]

She is real, and certainly she has concerns for her children, but beyond that, anything else is speculation. and should not be taught as fact.

Can I get a source for that, that is factual, not speculative?

Toscano was excommunicated not because she believed what she believed, but because she usurped the authority of the church and its leaders. She believed her theories and ideas were fact, and appointed herself an intelectual prophetess. But she was not called of God by prophecy and the laying on of hands (A of F 5). And now she doesn't even have the gift of the Holy Ghost to guide her.

Can you tell me the source on Toscano's excommunication?

[Snow]

It is interesting that no level of priesthood authority (bishop and up) is given to a man without a wife. I an sure the wives of bishops, stake presidents, seventies, apostles and prophets all know the great sacrifice and work it is to have such a role. I believe the men are formally set apart, but that the calling is definiltely a joint venture, just just for the husband and wife, but for the entire family. They must all be prepared for the sacrifices and challenges of having the father in such an authoritative position. I think the same is true of Heavenly Father. He cannot carry such authority without the influence of a rightious eternal wife. It certainly brings new meaning to 1 Cor. 11.

That's not exactly true.

Oliver Cowdery - who was second in command to Joseph Smith in the early days of the Church was a bachelor at the time.

[bytebear]

Can I get a source for that, that is factual, not speculative?

LDS.org - Search

Can you tell me the source on Toscano's excommunication?

Tidying Up Loose Ends?: The November 2000 Excommunication of Margaret Toscano, 2001 Salt Lake Sunstone Symposium, Sunstone Magazine.

That's not exactly true.

Oliver Cowdery - who was second in command to Joseph Smith in the early days of the Church was a bachelor at the time.

He also received the priesthood before baptism. Sometimes things don't follow the standard pattern, when restoring truth. Considering Celestial Marriage wasn't revealed yet, all bets are off.

Edited May 19, 2009 by bytebear

[Snow]

LDS.org - Search

Thanks but I was looking for a source on a concerned Heavenly Mother, not a search for heavenly parents.

Tidying Up Loose Ends?: The November 2000 Excommunication of Margaret Toscano, 2001 Salt Lake Sunstone Symposium, Sunstone Magazine.

Thanks - I don't think I have that.

[Maya]

It is interesting that no level of priesthood authority (bishop and up) is given to a man without a wife. I an sure the wives of bishops, stake presidents, seventies, apostles and prophets all know the great sacrifice and work it is to have such a role. I believe the men are formally set apart, but that the calling is definiltely a joint venture, just just for the husband and wife, but for the entire family. They must all be prepared for the sacrifices and challenges of having the father in such an authoritative position. I think the same is true of Heavenly Father. He cannot carry such authority without the influence of a rightious eternal wife. It certainly brings new meaning to 1 Cor. 11.

Thank you bytebear. It looks like preasthood can not be hole if there is no woman in the picture, just as it is not good for man to be alone. The union of a man and a woman can be the most powerfull unit in the universe. That is why the devil is attacing the families and marriages so hard today. He is afraid of the power of the sealed couples.

Women again have been so long subject to men, that it makes them, us, also often very sore about abelity of doing "mens jobs". Many women think that by overtaking mens jobs men and women will be more equal. What they miss to understand is that equality is not doing everything the other does, but that both do what they can, thus filling up all tasks that are needed to do in the family... goodhead.

[Hemidakota]

She is real, and certainly she has concerns for her children, but beyond that, anything else is speculation. and should not be taught as fact. The intermediator to God the Father is Jesus Christ, and the deliverer of spiritual answers is the Holy Ghost. We simply have no idea what her role is. Even the creation story and the plurality within it is the Godhead. Yes, we can assume that the female image is taken from her, but betond that we know nothing.

Your first mistake is the word "WE". Actually, you should state, ME, MYSELF, or I.

Your own assumption in answering something that is beyond the scope of understanding here is given by your own admission. Do not assume what general thought is correct. We worship the Godhead in our daily lives. We do not worship others that are outside of this scope. That is a given. This does not preclude us in no paying respect to those who look after us in this mortal probation. It is not of worship but one of communiqué as I am talking to my own mortal parents or those who help me.

Now, if one feels the Holy Ghost while a portion of our daily communiqué was directed to an individual, it serves a wiser purpose than your own assumption.

[Hemidakota]

Thank you bytebear. It looks like preasthood can not be hole if there is no woman in the picture, just as it is not good for man to be alone. The union of a man and a woman can be the most powerfull unit in the universe. That is why the devil is attacing the families and marriages so hard today. He is afraid of the power of the sealed couples.

Women again have been so long subject to men, that it makes them, us, also often very sore about abelity of doing "mens jobs". Many women think that by overtaking mens jobs men and women will be more equal. What they miss to understand is that equality is not doing everything the other does, but that both do what they can, thus filling up all tasks that are needed to do in the family... goodhead.

What I can assess in my witness, we cannot succeed without the other or vice versus. It serves us to respect both sides of the gender in order to part of the Celestial Family.

[Guest Apostate]

I love how people that know nothing about Margaret Toscano talk all about her and her motivations.

Typical ploy, denigrate the person to reduce the cognitive dissonance they or the circumstances make you feel.

I can tell you that I have met her and talked with her at some length. She knows a heck of a lot more about the gospel than the majority of the posters her - and has a lot healthier attitude on a number of things to boot.

Kinda like the way you treat folks on this site and elsewhere, when they don't kowtow to "your view of Doctrine".

Paul and Maggie Toscano are brilliant people, erudite and very conversant in all manner of LDS thought. Neither you nor I know why the were ex'd, except for the version of the excommunication they choose to put out in the public.

I don't believe that the OP said or posted anything negative about Toscano, of course that didn't stop you from posting your typical negative defense of anyone connected with the infamous September Six.

[Vort]

Your first mistake is the word "WE". Actually, you should state, ME, MYSELF, or I.

Your own assumption in answering something that is beyond the scope of understanding here is given by your own admission. Do not assume what general thought is correct.

Bytebear was correct, at least in the sense that we as a people have not been given detailed information about our heavenly Mother.

Now, if you're suggesting that you personally have received some great revelations in your life about her and her role, well, bully for you. That does not change the fact that little about her beyond the fact of her existence has been revealed to the Church (that is, to us -- we haven't been vouchsafed that information).

Like always, I may well be wrong. If so, please point out the revelations that we as a Church and people have been given about our heavenly Mother, so that I and others may enjoy this revealed knowledge that has so far escaped us. Or if I've misunderstood your point entirely, please accept my apology in advance and have another shot at explaining your point.

[Islander]

I was in UT this past weekend, Mother's day, and I have to admit was troubled by the references to "Heavenly Mother" during a couple of the meetings. What troubles me is that, as mentioned above, there is no doctrine or specific revelation/teaching shared by the prophets in that regard. We should not confuse mention with declaration.

There are many things that are real but that we should not be concerned with in general. I suggest this is one of them.

[Just_A_Guy]

It is interesting that no level of priesthood authority (bishop and up) is given to a man without a wife.

This prohibition is a policy and a doctrinal preference, but it is not absolute. There have been exceptions even after the revelation on marriage was received. Here's one from my own family history, as published in the LDS Biographical Encyclopedia:

Brother Tolley was only twenty-one years old when he became a Bishop, being one of the youngest if not the youngest official of that class in the Church. Notwithstanding this, he has so far [as of 1914] failed to observe Apostle Paul's declaration as to the marriage qualification but in other respects is doing good work.

[Guest Apostate]

I'm curious here...What role does "Heavenly Mother" play in our Salvation and Exaltation?

[Islander]

i'm curious here...what role does "heavenly mother" play in our salvation and exaltation?

none!!!

[Guest Apostate]

none!!!

B

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You're dead bang right on, Islander...NOTHING. While the day will come when we'll come to know and understand the concept of a "Heavenly Mother"...it has zero, zip, nada to do with our return to our Heavenly Father...

Too much bandwith has been eaten up on the fruitless gospel hobbying!!!

[Maya]

The truth is that the ONLY thing that has with our salvation to do is our belief in JK taht he is son to our HF and that he suffered sp that we could get the eternal life and our sins could be forgiven.

Exalation is an other story. I think actually... IMHO... that exalation depends on what step we are standiong in the stairs of progress and knowledge. We can not be exalated to something we can not understand. And the Templework will be done for everyone who is willing anyway!

MODHAT ON

I am getting an unpleasant feeling about this discusition. How about turning down a few degrades?

[mikbone]

Well, without Heavenly Mother there is no Jehovah...

[Guest Apostate]

Excellent point...mikbone...