What causes people to be extremly ant-mormon?

[Jim108]

1. The born again christians believe that you believe in a false Jesus.

Why?

2. Mormonism = cult

Why do they think this?

3. Joseph Smith was a con artist and made up this religion.

Why do they think this?

4. Mormons believe in plural Gods.

Yeah, so? Well, actually maybe it's more accurate to say we believe in plural gods with a lowercase g. But there is only one true God who we worship.

5. Mormons mimimize Jesus

Why do they think this?

6. The whole "we are the true church" is insulting to other religious beliefs.

I can understand why they would feel insulted at first, but not after studying about it some more. It's really one of the only 3 positions that any church can take- we are the true church, or we are preparing people for the true church, or we are a false church (leading people away from the true church).

7. Mormons still believe in polygamy even if not practiced on Earth.

This is the toughest one for me. Just gotta go by faith for now.

8. Mormons believe Men and Women are not equal. ie the womans exaltation is dependent on her man.

Umm, no.

9. Mormons believe that some will one day becom a god and populate another planet.

What do they think we'll be doing in heaven? Sitting on a cloud for eternity? They think God doesn't have the power or authority to help us become like Him?

10. Mormon missionaries withold information from prospective members. ie you don't get the full picture until after you join.

How is this different than every other church or organization? And why is it necessarily a bad thing? You gotta give the milk before the meat, right?

edit (added): Actually, I think we don't get the full picture until long after we have died.

11. Mormons baptize the dead.

Actually, we baptize for the dead. How do they reconcile the commandment for all to be baptized with the fact that so many were not able to receive baptism in this life?

12. Mormons have secret handshakes and pass words for entry to heaven.

Not entirely true. The things we learn in the temple are not to be publicly discussed, but they are filled with symbolism and deeper meaning that we need to discover.

13. Mormons are not nice to neighbors who are not mormons. ie a little boy is not invited to a friends birthday party because the party is only for his mormon friends. He watches the party from afar and cries. The little boy does not understand.

Unfortunate, but why is this deserving of anti-mormon attacks? How is it different than other churches and organizations? (Not trying to justify it- I know this should not be done)

14. Mormon only Boy Scout Troops. I know when my boy was in scouting any boy of any religion could join. When we moved to Utah we were told by our district that he could only join a non mormon troop. Very true and very ugly.

See above

15. Mormons put unhealthy pressure on the young members with regards to sexuallity. Masturbation is forbidden and normal sexual desires are buried. All healthy sixteen year old males masturbate and think of sex. It is normal and healthy. The guilt they build is overwhelming. It is no wonder that sexual crimes in Utah are high.

I've never considered it normal and healthy- why do you? I guess it has a lot to do with our upbringing.

I would not be too quick to attribute sexual crimes to a high moral standard.

16. The African American racism by the LDS church is still painfull to think about.

I admit in some areas there are still problems. But again, without trying to excuse ourselves, is this not also a problem in other churches and organizations?

17. When looking for a house to buy in Utah, we were told by a neighbor bluntly that we would not fit in here because, you see, we are all mormons. wink wink

wink wink, as in, just kidding? Why even throw this in here?

18. It is very hard on nonmormon kids to go to school in a mostly mormon school. The teasing is non ending and they are excluded and are lonely. I have known people who have moved just to get their kid into a more diversified school.

See #13. I also have heard of mormons moving away from Utah because they're sick of the exclusiveness there. The people aren't perfect, but the gospel is. So if you're looking for perfection, study the gospel, not the people. :)

I try not to stereotype. :)

Nah, just mostly wanting to know why. :)

1. The born again christians believe that you believe in a false Jesus.

Why? You believe that Jesus is the brother of Lucifer.

2. Mormonism = cult

Why do they think this? You have temple rituals and have close ties to the Masosns

3. Joseph Smith was a con artist and made up this religion.

Why do they think this? He disrespected his neighbors, his wife and broke the law to name a few.

4. Mormons believe in plural Gods.

Yeah, so? Well, actually maybe it's more accurate to say we believe in plural gods with a lowercase g. But there is only one true God who we worship. God has made it clear, he knows of no other gods.

5. Mormons mimimize Jesus

Why do they think this? Because you do not believe in the living God in the here and now sense. Jesus is the prophet of the church and you have replaced Him with a man. 6. The whole "we are the true church" is insulting to other religious beliefs.

I can understand why they would feel insulted at first, but not after studying about it some more. It's really one of the only 3 positions that any church can take- we are the true church, or we are preparing people for the true church, or we are a false church (leading people away from the true church). It is an insult, period

7. Mormons still believe in polygamy even if not practiced on Earth.

This is the toughest one for me. Just gotta go by faith for now. Why not let it go

8. Mormons believe Men and Women are not equal. ie the womans exaltation is dependent on her man.

Umm, no. Can a woman achieve celestial leve without ever being married. Can a woman be a bishop or prophet. Its like the slave master telling the slave we are equal but with different jobs

9. Mormons believe that some will one day becom a god and populate another planet.

What do they think we'll be doing in heaven? Sitting on a cloud for eternity? They think God doesn't have the power or authority to help us become like Him? You will serve God, is that not good enough for you?

10. Mormon missionaries withold information from prospective members. ie you don't get the full picture until after you join.

How is this different than every other church or organization? And why is it necessarily a bad thing? You gotta give the milk before the meat, right? NO, it is the lie of omission, it is a sin.

edit (added): Actually, I think we don't get the full picture until long after we have died.

11. Mormons baptize the dead.

Actually, we baptize for the dead. How do they reconcile the commandment for all to be baptized with the fact that so many were not able to receive baptism in this life? How can you baptize a person who is dead and unable to make his own desision. He is dead and it is too late.

12. Mormons have secret handshakes and pass words for entry to heaven.

Not entirely true. The things we learn in the temple are not to be publicly discussed, but they are filled with symbolism and deeper meaning that we need to discover. Do you really think handshakes and code words are used by God. It is a left over masonic ritual.

13. Mormons are not nice to neighbors who are not mormons. ie a little boy is not invited to a friends birthday party because the party is only for his mormon friends. He watches the party from afar and cries. The little boy does not understand.

Unfortunate, but why is this deserving of anti-mormon attacks? How is it different than other churches and organizations? (Not trying to justify it- I know this should not be done)

It is wrong and unloving and not what members of the true church should be doing. It is ugly

14. Mormon only Boy Scout Troops. I know when my boy was in scouting any boy of any religion could join. When we moved to Utah we were told by our district that he could only join a non mormon troop. Very true and very ugly.

See above This gives a great insight into the LDS culture.

15. Mormons put unhealthy pressure on the young members with regards to sexuallity. Masturbation is forbidden and normal sexual desires are buried. All healthy sixteen year old males masturbate and think of sex. It is normal and healthy. The guilt they build is overwhelming. It is no wonder that sexual crimes in Utah are high.

I've never considered it normal and healthy- why do you? I guess it has a lot to do with our upbringing. Masturbation in a normal and healthy activity for both men and women. To surpress it will cause mental stress that leads to unhealthy behavior.

I would not be too quick to attribute sexual crimes to a high moral standard.

16. The African American racism by the LDS church is still painfull to think about.

I admit in some areas there are still problems. But again, without trying to excuse ourselves, is this not also a problem in other churches and organizations? The first prophet were in a time where this was normal. A true prophet would have know better and put a stop to it.

17. When looking for a house to buy in Utah, we were told by a neighbor bluntly that we would not fit in here because, you see, we are all mormons. wink wink

wink wink, as in, just kidding? Why even throw this in here? No it ment get out, we don't want no nonmormons here. I was there and saw it first hand. I have friends who also have experienced this. Ugly

18. It is very hard on nonmormon kids to go to school in a mostly mormon school. The teasing is non ending and they are excluded and are lonely. I have known people who have moved just to get their kid into a more diversified school.

See #13. I also have heard of mormons moving away from Utah because they're sick of the exclusiveness there. The people aren't perfect, but the gospel is. So if you're looking for perfection, study the gospel, not the people. Jesus is perfect

As you can see some of these things I have fist hand experience with. I know you have a side of the story too that is just as ugly from your perspective. The question was why some have anit mormon behavior. My point here is to show you that you are very much part of this problem. We are both guilty and need to be more Jesus like. We need to love and to forgive.

[prisonchaplain]

Thanks for the answers prisonchaplain - your answers all help tell why people might disagree with our doctrines, and I respect that. But I don't understand how it justifies being anti-mormon. Perhaps we are defining anti-mormon differently.

It doesn't--at least not in the manner the OP mentioned--extreme, disrespectful, sensation, sacred-garment waiving, rabidness. Jesus just never was that way. I don't advocate, endorse or approve of any misbehavior--especially not from my theological camp. We should behave well.

Also, I may have slipped in that many of those answers were common to "mainstream" evangelicals opposed to your teachings, rather than specific to the extremists.

[Moksha]

...and so does love.

Saved you have the best for last.

[mikbone]

Enmity

[Snow]

IMHO the milk is "God loves us and forgives us." The meat is "He who tries to save his life will lose it, but he who loses his life for my sake will gain life." I would think that some time before baptism there ought to be a lesson on "Common hard questions people ask us," with a discussion of past polygamy, no blacks in the priesthood before 1978, etc. Far better to know before getting wet than to find out afterwards, and, when raising the questions get, "Well, we wanted to give you the milk before the meat."

Before someone becomes "Christian" do you think that they should be taught lessons on the dark history of Christianity - the role of the killer Constantine in the formation of the Nicene Creed, the centuries of clergy abuse and immorality, the Protestant wars, the racial bigotry, etc?

[ztodd]

The bottom line is that your teachings are substantially different on matters deemed "core" or "basic." So, for evangelicals the term is doctrinal, more than sociological (i.e. Jim Jones, or any # of mind control groups)

So we are a doctrinal cult instead of a sociological cult- interesting. That puts a new twist on the definition of cult. I can't quite grasp it.

His teachings were different from evangelical churches, and he said we were all wrong. Better to think him a con than that evangelicalism is apostate.

...

This is huge for evangelicals. Monotheism is a badge of honor for all Abrahamic religions. We're not like the pagans who worship multiple gods...our Trinity is the one God of Deuteronomy 6:4 (Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one). In fact, this one teaching alone raises heresy flags, and the word "cult."

As I said, we don't worship multiple gods either. We believe men and women can go on to become gods, and have done so- but none can take the place of our Heavenly Father. He alone is our God- the only one we worship.

Again, doctrine. Jesus as a created being, the spirit-brother of Satan. Compare these beliefs with the evangelical notion of Jesus, co-eternal with Father, truly God the Son, apart from all created beings.

Yes He truly is God the Son, “the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning.” (Mosiah 3:8.)

We do not teach that "Jesus is the spirit-brother of Satan", but rather we teach that "the premortal Jesus Christ, the Firstborn Son of the Father in the spirit, covenanted to be the Savior", and that "Lucifer, another spirit son of God, rebelled against the plan and "sought to destroy the agency of man" (Moses 4:3). He became Satan, and he and his followers were cast out of heaven and denied the privileges of receiving a physical body and experiencing mortality". I consider Satan to have been "disowned from the family" when he was cast out. So if you ask me if Jesus and Satan are brothers, I would say no. :)

One way of looking at this teaching is that it seems idolatrous. Just as many LDS may harbor suspicions that evangelicals are Bible-worshipers rather than God worshipers, evangelicals sometimes wonder if LDS don't pay more allegiance to the church that the one whom the church is named for? It may not be fair, but when a human organization becomes a gatekeeper to God, it raises the suspicions of those who mistrust Rome for the same reason.

Yes there probably are some church worshipers rather than God worshipers, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a true church.

The fact that there is a true church simply means that there is one ordained way of receiving the ordinances of the gospel- everyone will have the opportunity to enter into it, fully educated, in a position to accept or reject it and be fully accountable for the decision.

Not to mention all the blessings we receive for being a part of the Church, if we have that opportunity.

If it's any consolation, if I were LDS, I wouldn't be too concerned with this. At least it has historic and biblical precedent. Polygamy is sensational and odd, but hardly damnable, imho.

One odd thing about me, having been a Christian and a Latter Day Saint all my life- I don't automatically accept something because it happens to be in the bible- ultimately I want to receive my own personal witness and understanding of all the doctrines. It does help to have teachings of modern prophets as well.

Evangelicals expect to rule and reign WITH Christ, not independent of him.

So do we, in my understanding.

IMHO the milk is "God loves us and forgives us." The meat is "He who tries to save his life will lose it, but he who loses his life for my sake will gain life." I would think that some time before baptism there ought to be a lesson on "Common hard questions people ask us," with a discussion of past polygamy, no blacks in the priesthood before 1978, etc. Far better to know before getting wet than to find out afterwards, and, when raising the questions get, "Well, we wanted to give you the milk before the meat."

Do we have to teach everything about our history before we invite them to be baptized? That would take a bit too long, and I would dare say most people would not be interested.

Of course all are encouraged to study the history if they are interested, but to beware of out of context or twisted tidbits of history that are only designed to make you say, whoa, that's weird.

And hopefully they can find someone who won't shy away if they have a question to ask.

We don't force baptism on anyone who isn't ready, who doesn't have satisfactory answers to their questions.

This is another senational doctrine. The main evangelical issue is the belief that people must choose whom they will serve in this mortal existence.

Alright, but there are many people who died never hearing of Jesus Christ.

And many who may have heard but didn't get the full story.

That which is sacred to LDS, cannot but appear secret to Gentiles.

I'm sure that is the opinion of some, but not all. Some will respect that we hold certain things sacred.

Edited May 31, 2009 by ztodd
spelling typo, format

[Snow]

5. Mormons mimimize Jesus

Why do they think this? Because you do not believe in the living God in the here and now sense. Jesus is the prophet of the church and you have replaced Him with a man.

I don't think you even know what you are talking about. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ believe that Christ is God, that he lives, here and now. Apparently, if I read you correctly, you believe that he is a prophet.

Who is the one that minimized Christ?

16. The African American racism by the LDS church is still painfull to think about.

I admit in some areas there are still problems. But again, without trying to excuse ourselves, is this not also a problem in other churches and organizations? The first prophet were in a time where this was normal. A true prophet would have know better and put a stop to it.

You are just making that up, aren't you.

Any proof to your claim? Any whatsoever?

[Snow]

1. The born again christians believe that you believe in a false Jesus.

Why? You believe that Jesus is the brother of Lucifer.

It never ceases to amaze how blatantly dishonest people are when talking about the Church of Jesus Christ.

Do you care to answer why Jim? Seriously - do you think that it isn't a sin? That God approves? That people won't notice? What is the deal Jim.

We believe that Christ is the Son of God and that Satan is a fallen angel. As it so happens, that is a mainstream Christian belief. If you are unaware of what Christians believe re Satan, you might look up "Satan" in Smith's Bible Dictionary.

The only sense that Satan is anyone's brother is in that all creatures are created by God and so are his offspring.

[prisonchaplain]

Before someone becomes "Christian" do you think that they should be taught lessons on the dark history of Christianity - the role of the killer Constantine in the formation of the Nicene Creed, the centuries of clergy abuse and immorality, the Protestant wars, the racial bigotry, etc?

If MARM (Muslim Apologetics Research Ministry), or AARM (Atheists-...) were actively attacking Christianity, or evangelicalism on these grounds, then perhaps I would. If I knew that new converts would quickly come across anti-Evangelical sites, then I probably would teach adult/adolescent converts some of the common answers we give to critics.

And, you know by now that I'm not suggesting the Church is deceptive not to bring up such matters with new converts or investigators. Rather, an ounce of preventative instruction my prevent a pound of "buyer's remorse," weeks or months later.

[prisonchaplain]

Ztodd, thank you for your answers. Please understand that I was responding to your questions in the vein of the OP--offering the common evangelical impressions. I've learned much in my time at this site, and your answers both confirm and expand upon that. :-)

[prisonchaplain]

The only sense that Satan is anyone's brother is in that all creatures are created by God and so are his offspring.

In fairness to Jim, if Jesus was created by the Father (literal offspring), then He too is a creature, and is, in some aspect, a 'brother' of Satan. This contrasts with the historic belief that only Jesus is co-eternal with the Father and Holy Spirit, and all other creatures have absolute beginnings (creation ex nihilo--out of nothing).

Have many of this church's critics taken this very subtle teachings and sensationalized it to the extreme? Certainly. And, in some aspects the critics have concluded wrongly--perhaps intentionally, in some cases, for effect.

Maybe Jesus was right when he said, "If they operate in my name and they're not against me, leave them alone."

[Justice]

6. The whole "we are the true church" is insulting to other religious beliefs.

I only want to comment on 6.

If I were looking for a church to go to, my first question would be "Are you the true church of Jesus Christ?"

If the answer was anything but, "Yes we are," even spoken with conviction, I'd turn and leave.

The true church of Christ will know they are; claim they are; would have to feel they were the only true church.

I know it's a different way for you to look at it, but if you think about it, you'll see I'm right.

If your church doesn't know and claim it is the true church of Jesus Christ, how can it be?

[Justice]

This contrasts with the historic belief...

You just stated the main reason a restoration of the Gospel was needed.

[prisonchaplain]

I only want to comment on 6.

If I were looking for a church to go to, my first question would be "Are you the true church of Jesus Christ?"

If the answer was anything but, "Yes we are," even spoken with conviction, I'd turn and leave.

The true church of Christ will know they are; claim they are; would have to feel they were the only true church.

I know it's a different way for you to look at it, but if you think about it, you'll see I'm right.

If your church doesn't know and claim it is the true church of Jesus Christ, how can it be?

But you beg the question. Who's to say there is a single institution that represents "God's true church?" I believe the true church is assembliesofgodbaptistcongregationaldisciplesofchristevangelicalfree...well you get my point...they are all true. And, within them, there are some charlatans, and perhaps an erroneous teaching here and there. But, if Jesus is being lift up, then that church is part of the Church.

Of course, there are a few churches out there that make the same claim. Let's see there's that little group...Roman Catholic...they've got a billion or so. But even they, with all their sacraments, and insistance that they are the Mother Church...even they recognize us Protestants as "separated bretheren."

Your questions works for religion...Jesus, and therefore Christianity, are the true faiths. But I've not read that Christ's church must be found only within one human institution.

As for your restoration post...you're either right or not.

[MikeUpton]

Here are the words of a Latter-day apostle on the subject we spoke of, those in predominantly LDS communities who shun those who are not a member of our church:

Occasionally I hear of members offending those of other faiths by overlooking them and leaving them out. This can occur especially in communities where our members are the majority. I have heard about narrow-minded parents who tell children that they cannot play with a particular child in the neighborhood simply because his or her family does not belong to our Church. This kind of behavior is not in keeping with the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. I cannot comprehend why any member of our Church would allow these kinds of things to happen. I have been a member of this Church my entire life. I have been a full-time missionary, twice a bishop, a mission president, a Seventy, and now an Apostle. I have never taught—nor have I ever heard taught—a doctrine of exclusion. I have never heard the members of this Church urged to be anything but loving, kind, tolerant, and benevolent to our friends and neighbors of other faiths.

full article available here:

LDS.org - Liahona Article - Doctrine of Inclusion

[the Ogre]

As you can see some of these things I have fist hand experience with. I know you have a side of the story too that is just as ugly from your perspective. The question was why some have anit mormon behavior. My point here is to show you that you are very much part of this problem. We are both guilty and need to be more Jesus like. We need to love and to forgive.

This is my biggest problem with anti-mormons: Who are they to dictate my beliefs?

Fault? There is no such concept. I will not compromise with people who insist on distortions. I have spent years studying the faiths of the world, but I still do not judge what is right and what is wrong and I DO NOT PUBLISH FALSEHOODS about other churches. You want change? Start with you. Latter-day Saints do not launch ad hominem attacks on other churches or religions.

Ugly? Who asked you?

Latter-day Saints are part of the problem? What? Drop our religion and convert to what? The one you attend? Stop believing in G-d altogether? Atheism is better than what you are suggesting.

My grandmothers and my mother are at fault? My scottish ancestors are at fault? My jewish great-grandparents are at fault? Just because we believe differently? Just because they converted to a faith they were willing to sacrifice all for, sell all to come to Utah at the turn of the last century to live in a land that does not hate them? Their sacrifice is what is at the root of this problem? You blame them for the propaganda that is displayed all over the web that does not even begin to consult Latter-day Saints about what we believe. My two-year old twin nephews are at fault? Every latter-day Saint on the planet is a part of the problem because we dared to believe in G-d in a way that is different than do you?

I am out on the web teaching of the falsehoods of a particular religion? I am accusing someone else of deception? I am willfully changing Wikipedia articles because I am so filled with hate and anger at people who are simply different? I am out hacking church websites for lulz because those mormons are such a pack of insane kool-aid drinkers?

Guilt? I am supposed to be filled with guilt because I do not agree with you? I am supposed to teach my children that we believe in a systematically inferior religion? Who asked you to preference yourself to the mighty authority of all thing mormon? Guilt?

No one asked for paladin white-knights to come here. Who needs crusaders?

[Snow]

In fairness to Jim, if Jesus was created by the Father (literal offspring), then He too is a creature, and is, in some aspect, a 'brother' of Satan. This contrasts with the historic belief that only Jesus is co-eternal with the Father and Holy Spirit, and all other creatures have absolute beginnings (creation ex nihilo--out of nothing).

Have many of this church's critics taken this very subtle teachings and sensationalized it to the extreme? Certainly. And, in some aspects the critics have concluded wrongly--perhaps intentionally, in some cases, for effect.

Maybe Jesus was right when he said, "If they operate in my name and they're not against me, leave them alone."

The belief that Jesus was co-eternal with the Father is only historic to a point. It does not date to the time of Christ and was not the orthodox view until after Nicea. It became the de facto official position in 381 AD by decree of the Emperor Theodosius.

[the Ogre]

As for your restoration post...you're either right or not.

You think we are wrong, so why do you care? Wrong or right is not a concern for a person who walks another path. I am not concerned with the path you are taking in life and as such you should not care in the least. Sit on a bench and take a look. Scatter a few crumbs.

I think most Chr-stians should do as some anti-mormons say and think of us as sub-humans. How can we be part of humanity if we are so wrapped up in a cult (your doctrinal term is just as hateful as accusing us of being satanists) and can not operate the grey matter G-d gave us? Ignore us. Don't look at us. Blame us for our existence. We are the simple primates in the human family. Scatter a few crumbs and walk your way. Eventually ugly creatures like us will devolve and we can be put in zoos.

Don't be concerned. We just might not be able to know what is right and wrong. We're the obstinate children who refuse to learn. Just another step in the devolutionary path. Scatter a few crumbs, eventually we will go away.

Edited May 31, 2009 by the Ogre

[Aesa]

The belief that Jesus was co-eternal with the Father is only historic to a point. It does not date to the time of Christ and was not the orthodox view until after Nicea. It became the de facto official position in 381 AD by decree of the Emperor Theodosius.

That is merely an opinion, which of-course you are welcome to but which I think at this point I disagree with.

The Council's were not designed to make new doctrine out of thin air (well, lets say that for the sake of discussion) but rather meetings to officially sanction already widely held beliefs.

[talisyn]

Protestants and I believe even Catholics believe that God created humans and angels, which are different species of God's creation. Angels are heavenly beings, while humans are earthly beings.

And the difference here with Protestants and Catholics is that God didn't create Christ because Christ is God. Christ is not a created being, he his eternal, he is the great I AM. Satan is a fallen angel and angels are created beings, therefore making Christ and Satan spirit brothers, seems blasphemous to non-LDS.

Some anti-mormons are atheists, so that could be one reason. But non-LDS in general, whether anti or not, do not see Satan and Christ as equal creations, since Christ is so above Satan as being the One that did the creating.

M.

I totally forgot about people thinking angels and mortals are totally different species. When you have that kind of thinking no wonder it makes the LDS church sound heretical

[prisonchaplain]

The belief that Jesus was co-eternal with the Father is only historic to a point. It does not date to the time of Christ and was not the orthodox view until after Nicea. It became the de facto official position in 381 AD by decree of the Emperor Theodosius.

IMHO (in other words I can't prove what I'm about to say) so many of the beliefs that the Catholic Church made official in the centuries following the Apostles were simply official and detailed explications of what Christians had mostly accepted since long before. As heresies arose, the Church had to spell teachings out and dilineate orthodoxy from heresy.

It could simply be due to the influence of Catholicism and Christianity in the world, but most of the people I've come across in my life time seem to assume that when we say God made the world, it was out of nothing. And, while God used the dust to create us, that dust came form out of nothing.

The belief is premortal existence is not common in the world. Even reincarnation, as I understand it, starts with a first life. Most people seem to accept, if they accept spiritual explanations at all, that God created from scratch, and that there was no conscious existence, prior to the world.

Being of the majority view does not make me right. However, it does hint at the probability that prior to 381 AD Christians already believed in creation out of nothing. BTW, even if I'm right, you could simply say this was part of the Great Apostasy, no?

[prisonchaplain]

You think we are wrong, so why do you care? Wrong or right is not a concern for a person who walks another path. I am not concerned with the path you are taking in life and as such you should not care in the least. Sit on a bench and take a look. Scatter a few crumbs.

I think most Chr-stians should do as some anti-mormons say and think of us as sub-humans. How can we part of humanity if we are so wrapped up in a cult (your doctrinal term is just as hateful as accusing us of being satanists) and can not operate the grey matter G-d gave us? Ignore us. Don't look at us. Blame us for our existence. We are the simple primates in the human family. Scatter a few crumbs and walk your way. Eventually ugly creatures like us will devolve and we can be put in zoos.

Don't be concerned. We just might not be able to know what is right and wrong. We're the obstinate children who refuse to learn. Just another step in the devolutionary path. Scatter a few crumbs, eventually we will go away.

This is a very post-modern and disappointing perspective, imho. I can disagree with people and still interact, engage, respect, and care about them. BTW, I don't use the world "cult." It's become a useless term because of it's overly various uses, and it's general offensiveness. I simply explained how many evangelicals use the term--basically as one step beyond heresy.

I really hope we do not get to the place of saying, "You do what you want--what you think is right. I'll do what I think is right. We won't offend each other, because we'll just stop talking about anything that matters." This is a common approach these days, and I find it frankly heart-breaking. It probably breaks the heart of God that we, his creation, treat each other thus.

[Maureen]

...Ugly? Who asked you?...

The OP asked; that's the whole point of this thread.

M.

[the Ogre]

It probably breaks the heart of God that we, his creation, treat each other thus.

PC:

I agree with that sentiment. Where is your censure of Jim? You comment on what Snow and I have to say and yet say nothing publicly about how wrong Jim is. I respect the list he posted. I even respect his elaboration, however I do not excuse the final paragraph of post #75 in this thread.

You in fact have insisted in the last two weeks that we have to provide the burden of proof. This type of comment is no different than the naked attacks by pilgrim2, aj4u, and jim108. Latter-day Saints are not required to prove anything. Either you walk on the same path as do we or you do not. I am very comfortable saying I walk on the path of salvation joining every Chr-stian in the world so long as they are not sniping at my flanks.

My point here is to show you that you are very much part of this problem. We are both guilty and need to be more Jesus like. We need to love and to forgive.

This is the line that really gets me going. No one in the church invited the attack on Haun's Mill. No one in the church suggested hacking LDS sites was a welcome manner of interaction. No one in my family has ever edited the Wikipedia entry for any other church because we simply believe differently. Latter-day Saints have every right to believe what we will. We are not part of any problem because we simply exist. There is no guilt to go around or to share. No one should be held guilty or should be judged guilty for their religious beliefs as if we had committed some type of crime.

No burden of proof is necessary and no one has to prove us wrong. Scatter those crumbs. Someone might bite. Snare them if you can. Domesticate them if you can. None of those crumbs require truth or burdens or facts or faith. They are only the leavened bread that on holy days is purged from the house and is left for the beggars, rats, and pigeons.

Come feed the little birds, show them you care

And you'll be glad if you do.

Their young ones are hungry,

Their nests are so bare;

All it takes is tuppence from you.

[prisonchaplain]

PC:

Where is your censure of Jim?

I don't know that I've censured anyone. Since Jim is a fellow "traditional-orthodox-Nicene-Trinitarian-non-LDS" Christian, I've had little to say about his posts. I tend to give such folk space to make their own comments in their own voice and manner. Occaisionally I'll see a particularly salient point and post thanks, and on rare occasions I'll have to put on my moderator cap, but otherwise I don't find much use in offering evangelical commentary on evangelical commentary. :-)

You comment on what Snow and I have to say and yet say nothing publicly about how wrong Jim is.

Maybe you and Snow are more interesting? I say that only with a bit of jest. After all, Jim is a fellow evangelical, if I'm not mistaken. We might learn a bit from each other, but we can learn so much more from you--especially here.

I respect the list he posted. I even respect his elaboration, however I do not excuse the final paragraph of post #75 in this thread.

YOU MEAN THIS: As you can see some of these things I have fist hand experience with. I know you have a side of the story too that is just as ugly from your perspective. The question was why some have anit mormon behavior. My point here is to show you that you are very much part of this problem. We are both guilty and need to be more Jesus like. We need to love and to forgive. -- JIM

What's so wrong with Jim saying that some evangelicals and some LDS have engaged in unloving behavior and dialogue? Perhaps you took the "you are very much part of this problem" personally??? I understood him to mean "your church"--and really "some unkind members of your church." So, while it's uncomfortable, Jim also readily admits that evangelicals are also guilty. So, what comment am I supposed to make to this???

You in fact have insisted in the last two weeks that we have to provide the burden of proof. This type of comment is no different than the naked attacks by pilgrim2, aj4u, and jim108. Latter-day Saints are not required to prove anything.

If you recheck the context and flavor of my post, I'm quite certain you'll find that I did not insist your church defend itself, as if it was in a Courtroom, accused of something. Rather, I highlighted that if you hope to convert committed evangelicals to the Restored Gospel, most of us will need substantial convicing (burden of proof). Such an observation is no more insulting me saying I won't quit drinking coffee unless I receive substantial evidence it's bad for my health, or I'm convinced God wants me to quit.

Edited May 31, 2009 by prisonchaplain