When can we say that we’ve had enough?

[MarginOfError]

After some comments made on one of bytor’s other threads (I can’t keep track of which one, there are so many), I decided to review the first 10 pages of the Current Events Forum archives. In those 10 pages, I found 80 threads started by bytor. That’s 40% of the total threads since April! In those, bytor has clarified on numerous occasions that he doesn’t hate Obama. There’s some weak evidence for this as well.

47 of bytor’s 80 threads (58.7%) have not been directed at Obama.

32 of bytor’s 80 threads (40%) have been negatively directed at Obama

1 of bytor’s 80 threads (1.3%) have been positively directed at Obama.

So does that mean that bytor only 40% hates Obama? What’s more, the vast majority of the 47 “neutral on Obama” posts are very heavily tilted toward criticizing, ridiculing, or complaining about liberal policies, many of which are either indirectly or directly influenced by the Obama administration. To his credit, bytor hasn’t been at all dishonest about his political leanings. Okay, I’ll give the benefit of the doubt…he doesn’t hate Obama…he just hates liberals.

Perhaps more disturbing, though, is that the thread titles often have misleading titles, or are based on journalism at it’s worst. Take, for instance, one of the more recent threads, “Obama tells American Businesses to Drop Dead.” This thread contains a link to a source that doesn’t contain a single quote from Obama. Instead, it outlines research conducted by very biased individuals who happen to support bytor’s way of thinking.

So, I come back to my original question: when can we say that we’ve had enough? I really feel that the persistent stream of garbage is both eating up bandwidth that could be used for a better purpose, and diminishing the quality of our community. Is it time that we had an intervention, sort of like a home-owners’ association meeting, to say that something needs to change here? Are these threads really adding anything to our community? Or is the better course of action to start posting thread after thread of anti-conservative thought articles to provide equal portions of garbage?

Someone please bring back the sanity!

[Guest]

Dude, my opinion is, you need to chill.

This is a public forum and unless Bytor's posts break one of the TOS rules, he is free to post it here. I may not agree with his views, but I will defend his privilege to post it here.

If you don't like it, then don't read it! Simple as that.

And I will deign to say that conservatives will not view his posts as garbage. So, that becomes just your opinion as well.

Great research and mathematical analysis though - you really spent a lot of time on that.

Just so you know, I'm neither republican nor democrat. Heck, I'm not even an American citizen. So, there is no bias in this post of any kind.

[Wingnut]

And I will deign to say that conservatives will not view his posts as garbage.

Perhaps not, but conservatives are not the only people that read these forums.

[FunkyTown]

Just so you know, I'm neither republican nor democrat. Heck, I'm not even an American citizen. So, there is no bias in this post of any kind.

Err - Anatess? Your previous posts pretty clearly show you to have free-market libertarian ideals and you've shown an anti-Obama bias as well. In fact, you've pretty clearly delineated your opinion on interventionism and dislike of the administration. I can give you links to your posts, if you'd like?

Bytor, we know doesn't like the current administration. That's fine. I like Bytor, I think his opinions are very valid. I disagree with certain things and have a more centrist viewpoint(I don't want to say moderate as I can be a rabid centrist and I think saying 'Moderate' implies there's something wrong with being passionate).

But... I think you're being a bit disingenuous when you say there's no bias in your post.

[MarginOfError]

Dude, my opinion is, you need to chill.

This is a public forum and unless Bytor's posts break one of the TOS rules, he is free to post it here. I may not agree with his views, but I will defend his privilege to post it here.

If you don't like it, then don't read it! Simple as that.

And I will deign to say that conservatives will not view his posts as garbage. So, that becomes just your opinion as well.

Great research and mathematical analysis though - you really spent a lot of time on that.

Just so you know, I'm neither republican nor democrat. Heck, I'm not even an American citizen. So, there is no bias in this post of any kind.

That’s just the thing, though, is I very rarely ready anything posted by bytor. As soon as I see his screen name I already know what he’s trying to say: “liberal bad, conservative good.” And there is rarely any discussion to follow.

In the past 90 days in Current Events alone, he has started 118 threads…most of them poking fun at liberal politics. That comes out to 1.3 new threads every day!

I wouldn’t mind if he posted one or two a week. But 1.3 every day just seems to create a lot of litter on the boards.

[bytor2112]

Wow! I feel honored, to be so singled out. Perhaps you didn't read my most recent post, where I said that I would refrain from posting more about Obama. Maybe you did and chose to ignore or maybe you didn't...either way.

I admit to being a bit of a political junkie. I work as a Financial Advisor and manage millions of dollars of other peoples money and spend nearly every morning listening to economic news. Not just the dribble on the news or found in various publications, but also insight from big time economists and money managers. So, to say that my views are colored, bias and often narrowly focused would be an understatement. So, things that I find interesting regarding these issues, I post. It is not always an endorsement of what is in the article, but more of.....check it out and what do you think. My threads seem to get quite a few responses from both sides of the issues.....is that bad?

I do think it is in bad taste to make another member of lds.net the subject of a negative thread and to refer to their posts as a steady stream of garbage. Just because I believe something to be correct, factual or the way things should be doesn't make it so......the same goes for you MOE.

Edited June 9, 2009 by bytor2112

[Guest]

Err - Anatess? Your previous posts pretty clearly show you to have free-market libertarian ideals and you've shown an anti-Obama bias as well. In fact, you've pretty clearly delineated your opinion on interventionism and dislike of the administration. I can give you links to your posts, if you'd like?

Bytor, we know doesn't like the current administration. That's fine. I like Bytor, I think his opinions are very valid. I disagree with certain things and have a more centrist viewpoint(I don't want to say moderate as I can be a rabid centrist and I think saying 'Moderate' implies there's something wrong with being passionate).

But... I think you're being a bit disingenuous when you say there's no bias in your post.

That's MY principles. It doesn't mean I hate Obama - just like Bytor says all the time! If it has come to the point that expressing your principles that is not in-line with the current administration is not something you can say on a public forum, then truly America has gone down the wayside.

Glad to know there's a name for who I am - libertarian you say? Although, I still put forth that I do not like to be pigeon-holed into a "named entity", let alone a political party, because it limits your understanding of what I have to say. Last time I checked libertarians was anti-war. That's not me. And that's just one example. I have my own set of principles and that's where I'm coming from - unfortunately, a lot of Obama's principles run contrary to my own, but heck, he gains my respect just for the Office that he holds! I said the same thing about Bush. That guy is even worse because he runs under the "conservative" banner when he is so far liberal it would be a stretch to call him conservative! Same as Arnold Schwarze-whatever and Bloomberg! And that's why I've stated before that if you call the past 10 years capitalism, then you definitely have no idea what capitalism is!

About bias. If you happen to be... okay, let's use that name - Libertarian... libertarian bias is, of course, an inherent part of your views. And that's why, when I see Sean Hannity's show, I know he is biased to the republican slant, so you have to take that into consideration in taking his comments with a grain of salt. There is completely nothing wrong with that! There is nothing wrong with standing on your principles and expressing it. What is wrong is when you say you're a libertarian then start putting ideas contrary to who you say you are. With Bytor, you know exactly where he is coming from because you know exactly who he is! He doesn't hide it. He doesn't pretend to be liberal then start bashing on liberal policies or whatever.

ALL IN ALL - I STILL WILL DEFEND BYTOR'S PRIVILEGE TO POST HIS VIEWS IN HERE. I would do the same for any one of you - liberal, conservative, libertarian, democrat, skinny, fat, pretty, ugly, whoever you are!

Edited June 9, 2009 by anatess

[john doe]

Tread lightly guys, and remember site rule #3.

[FunkyTown]

That's MY principles. It doesn't mean I hate Obama - just like Bytor says all the time! If it has come to the point that expressing your principles that is not in-line with the current administration is not something you can say on a public forum, then truly America has gone down the wayside.

Err... Anatess? I think you might have misunderstood. Bytor wasn't even disagreeing with me. He took exception to the way Moe stated it to him, but Bytor agreed that he may have been a bit overexuberant in the number of posts he made.

Nobody was saying to Bytor to stop posting his opinions. I like Bytor, even if I disagree with some things he says. What people were disagreeing with was the overwhelming number of Anti-Obama postings that essentially say the same thing.

Now, that having been said: I'm glad you admitted that you were actually a bit biased in what you said to Moe. That was my point all along, which you apparently agree with.

[Guest]

Perhaps not, but conservatives are not the only people that read these forums.

So, how does that make conservative posts garbage?

[Guest]

Err... Anatess? I think you might have misunderstood. Bytor wasn't even disagreeing with me. He took exception to the way Moe stated it to him, but Bytor agreed that he may have been a bit overexuberant in the number of posts he made.

Nobody was saying to Bytor to stop posting his opinions. I like Bytor, even if I disagree with some things he says. What people were disagreeing with was the overwhelming number of Anti-Obama postings that essentially say the same thing.

Now, that having been said: I'm glad you admitted that you were actually a bit biased in what you said to Moe. That was my point all along, which you apparently agree with.

Funky, the exact post that you quoted has ZERO bias. So, no, I don't agree with what you said as far as the quoted post is concerned. That's what I'm trying to say. It was not written to make a political stance. Defending one's privilege is open to all - not tainted by bias at all. If that post was biased, then you are implying that I'm only defending Bytor because he is conservative/libertarian. Which is not the case at all - I will defend anybody like I stated. I'm sorry if I didn't explain the difference between Sean Hannity bias as opposed to my post clearly (last 2 paragraphs, if I remember).

My understanding of the thread intent was that MOE was trying to drum up support to get Bytor's political posts silenced - not toned down. And therein is where I took exception. Personally, I don't see Bytor's posts as ad nauseum. But then, I admit I don't read every one of them... But then, maybe I misunderstood?

Edited June 9, 2009 by anatess

[jadams_4040]

Wow! I feel honored, to be so singled out. Perhaps you didn't read my most recent post, where I said that I would refrain from posting more about Obama. Maybe you did and chose to ignore or maybe you didn't...either way.

I admit to being a bit of a political junkie. I work as a Financial Advisor and manage millions of dollars of other peoples money and spend nearly every morning listening to economic news. Not just the dribble on the news or found in various publications, but also insight from big time economists and money managers. So, to say that my views are colored, bias and often narrowly focused would be an understatement. So, things that I find interesting regarding these issues, I post. It is not always an endorsement of what is in the article, but more of.....check it out and what do you think. My threads seem to get quite a few responses from both sides of the issues.....is that bad?

I do think it is in bad taste to make another member of lds.net the subject of a negative thread and to refer to their posts as a steady stream of garbage. Just because I believe something to be correct, factual or the way things should be doesn't make it so......the same goes for you MOE.

{I admit to being a bit of a political junkie. I work as a Financial Advisor and manage millions of dollars of other peoples money and spend nearly every morning listening to economic news.}

{quote} well guess we now know why you have the priorities you have; I wonder what yer priorities would be if you worked for the downtrodden?:)

[Guest]

{I admit to being a bit of a political junkie. I work as a Financial Advisor and manage millions of dollars of other peoples money and spend nearly every morning listening to economic news.}

{quote} well guess we now know why you have the priorities you have; I wonder what yer priorities would be if you worked for the downtrodden?:)

I am sorry, my sensitivity is heightened... but this is GARBAGE.

And NO - THIS is not BIASED either.

It is never good to play class wars. Regardless of which political spectrum you hail from! I wish people would learn this.

[FunkyTown]

So... You're saying he shouldn't post this 'Garbage', Ana?

Someone disagreed with you and you called his post garbage, exactly two posts after you said you would defend anybody.

Ana? It's clear you have a bit of a bias. Relax, don't take it so personally. In fact, I'm amazed this has blown up as much as it has.

[Guest]

So... You're saying he shouldn't post this 'Garbage', Ana?

Someone disagreed with you and you called his post garbage, exactly two posts after you said you would defend anybody.

Ana? It's clear you have a bit of a bias. Relax, don't take it so personally. In fact, I'm amazed this has blown up as much as it has.

Funky, we must be speaking different languages because we're on completely different wavelengths.

Okay, let me put this simply... I WILL DEFEND YOUR PRIVILEGE TO POST GARBAGE ON A PUBLIC FORUM AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T BREAK TOS RULES.

How's that?

I think this has blown up because I got heightened. I tend to be very passionate about my principles. I guarantee you, if I've had kept silent, this would have ended on page 1. So, yeah, mea culpa.

Hmm... I think Bytor needs to send some jello my way. I've always wondered what's so good about them...

Edited June 9, 2009 by anatess

[bytor2112]

{I admit to being a bit of a political junkie. I work as a Financial Advisor and manage millions of dollars of other peoples money and spend nearly every morning listening to economic news.}

{quote} well guess we now know why you have the priorities you have; I wonder what yer priorities would be if you worked for the downtrodden?:)

I really don't get your post. Are you saying your priorities are somehow better than mine, because I have been outspoken regarding what I view as disastrous economic policy......not only my views, but the views of much of the world currently and how do you know that I don't work for the "down trodden" You seem to think that anyone that plans for retirement and invests money is wealthy? If you do you are very mistaken.

Edited June 10, 2009 by bytor2112

[MarginOfError]

Wow! I feel honored, to be so singled out. Perhaps you didn't read my most recent post, where I said that I would refrain from posting more about Obama. Maybe you did and chose to ignore or maybe you didn't...either way.

I admit to being a bit of a political junkie. I work as a Financial Advisor and manage millions of dollars of other peoples money and spend nearly every morning listening to economic news. Not just the dribble on the news or found in various publications, but also insight from big time economists and money managers. So, to say that my views are colored, bias and often narrowly focused would be an understatement. So, things that I find interesting regarding these issues, I post. It is not always an endorsement of what is in the article, but more of.....check it out and what do you think. My threads seem to get quite a few responses from both sides of the issues.....is that bad?

I do think it is in bad taste to make another member of lds.net the subject of a negative thread and to refer to their posts as a steady stream of garbage. Just because I believe something to be correct, factual or the way things should be doesn't make it so......the same goes for you MOE.

“quite a few responses”? The average number of responses is to your threads is 11.62, but a histogram shows a very skewed distribution (with an extremely high coefficient of variation). The median number of responses is 5. Over 50% of the threads you begin elicit 5 or fewer responses. The mode (most frequently occurring number of responses) is 0.

I will concede that characterizing your posts as garbage is inaccurate. The more appropriate term would be ‘clutter.’ These are dormant posts that keep getting posted and, typically, only elicit a relatively small number or responses. The things you are posting aren’t being discussed.

What’s happened here is that you’ve released so many threads in such a short time—many of them very similar to each other—that your threads have become redundant. I miss the good old days when you started fewer threads, but each one was accompanied by actual insight and thought. I miss the days when a new thread by bytor was and ecstatic, “great, a new thread by bytor” and not rolling-eyed, “great, a new thread by bytor.”

But over the past six months this forum has become increasingly hostile to people who don’t believe in conservative economic policies, or don’t subscribe to stereotypical conservative voting practices--you have been a big contributor to that hostile atmosphere. Reducing the clutter would go a long way to reducing the hostility.

SIDENOTE: No, I hadn’t missed your earlier thread. My decision to go ahead with this thread was a calculated risk.

[Wingnut]

So, how does that make conservative posts garbage?

I didn't say that it did. The point is that with so many posts on the same or very similar topics, it all becomes "garbage in, garbage out."

[Honor]

I wouldn’t mind if he posted one or two a week. But 1.3 every day just seems to create a lot of litter on the boards.

I'm not entirely sure that all the "litter" on the boards can be attributed to bytor...

Knowing how someone will react based on what they have previously said they believe doesn't mean that they aren't free to share their opinion even if it bothers you. If you read the boards regularly, you might be able to "predict" the type of reaction that several members would give.

I'm sorry that you have to sort through things you don't want to read, but we all do it. Unless there is some site rule about how many threads someone can post per day, I don't see how it's anybody's place (outside of site admin/mods) to say "enough is enough".

Quit trying to take away someone's site-given rights MOE!!!

[DigitalShadow]

<statistics and stuff>

You have wayyyyy too much time on your hands

[NeuroTypical]

Bytor uses this forum to post crap about Obama. There's nothing wrong with that. Your recourse is to ignore him, not gripe about him.

It's kind of the foundational understanding of freedom of speech - unless someone is forcing you against your will to watch or listen, then go away and stop complaining.

It's kind of a foundational understanding of ownership rights - if the owners of this forum are happy having political threads, then you'll have political threads. Your recourse is to go find some other forum, or go start your own. (FYI, Nauvoo.com doesn't allow political threads, neither does MADB.)

MOE, you really got no leg to stand on here.

[Guest]

You have wayyyyy too much time on your hands

Seriously, though, it's the reason I love MOE's post, even if I disagreed with it. He does put a lot of thought into it. You can tell it's not just some knee-jerk reaction to something that offended his sensibilities.

[bytor2112]

I will concede that characterizing your posts as garbage is inaccurate

It's not only inaccurate....it's rude. If I said that your posts were nothing more than condescending arrogance and were just arrogant dribble from one trying to prove to himself how smart he thinks he is....that might be inaccurate, but it would definitely be rude.

[Elgama]

is it the Brit in me that thought the original post was meant to be a satirical view? - I found it funny anyway it was so similar to Bytor's posts about Obama

-Charley

[MarginOfError]

You have wayyyyy too much time on your hands

Oh come on now, you know just as well as I do that 314.1593% of statistics are entirely made up.