Kissing on Temple Square? Everybody?

[Traveler]

Yes He did. But, Jesus is God and is without sin. My point, lets us not be so quick to point fingers at other sinners. Was their actions wrong? Yes. Are we any better then they? No. So lets bring them into our church and teach, and forgive and love.

Why then are you pointing fingers?

The Traveler

[mightynancy]

I see this with citizens of the US taking sides with those who find fault with this country in order to appear more reasonable.

I'm always distressed when it's not okay to find fault with the government. This nation was founded by a bunch of dissenters who saw a better way. If one's only intent is to appear "reasonable", then it's preposterous to chime in and criticize. If one's intent is to make the country better, it's certainly a patriotic thing to do.

[its_Chet]

I'm always distressed when it's not okay to find fault with the government. This nation was founded by a bunch of dissenters who saw a better way. If one's only intent is to appear "reasonable", then it's preposterous to chime in and criticize. If one's intent is to make the country better, it's certainly a patriotic thing to do.

Having an occasional and legitmate complaint about your government is one thing, but always blaming it for everything, believing any accusation cheerfully, and adding fuel to the fire when other countries misunderstand our decisions is another. There are too many people who behave as if they are being paid to discredit this country in any way possible, and they are usually very strident in their accusations.

Funny thing is, those same people, when "their team" is in power, are quite unwilling to accept any dissenting opinions from those who disagree with them, which I find to be hypocritical.

We were talking about people who make an every day deal out of criticizing this country, and are never willing to give it the benefit of the doubt, or try to represent it in a positive light when other countries get a false understanding of our intentions and goals.

[JohnnyRudick]

I agree 100%. I'll never understand why some people feel the need to be the devil's advocate. You can be respectful without bashing your own country, religion, etc. If anything, I find less respect for people when they do that. What good is their faith when they are so willing to criticize it? What does that prove? All it proves to me is that they don't adequately respect their own religion. Sometimes I feel obliged to do that for them, even if it's a different one than mine.

And as far as America bashing goes, I say "Love it or leave it". Isnt' it interesting that after the Saints migrated to Deseret, they had big 4th of July parades? They'd been spit on by various state and lower level governments, and failed to get redress from President Van Buren, and yet their patriotism remained intact. And we've got "angst-ridden" teens in the suburbs wearing Che Guevara t-shirts. Go figure.

, , , , , , ,

[Jim108]

It's not a matter of earthly values, but of how we responded as converted souls. Can any sin separate me from God? Yes. But, as a Christian, how I respond to someone making out in my church will be different than how I respond to the overweight church member taking a third piece of pie at a church potluck. Both may need to repent, but the one willing to mock the house of God demonstrates a hardness of heart, and a spirit of mockery that my Bible gives me plenty of warning about. So, while all sin is enough to damn an unrepentant soul, not all sin is the same.

Yes, love the sinner hate the sin. But that love will ook different, depending on context. Jesus called the Pharisees vipers, He turned over the money-changers tables in the Temple, and He gave the rich young man a response that He knew would expose him as a money-loving hypocrite. Yet he was gentle with the Samaritan woman, the woman caught in adultery, and with the crowds that mocked him at his crucifixion.

A gay couple making out in a religious holy place, while likely intoxicated calls for loving, but definite removal. BTW, the Apostle Paul demonstrated the same rationale when he called for removal of a fornicator from the church--perhaps, if we give him over to Satan, he'll come to his senses and repent.

Jesus spent time with sinners, but his gentleness and favor went to the open-hearted, not to mockers. Would you, as a pastor, really allow mockers, for example, to disrupt your service with taunts and disturbance...or would you have your ushers escort them out? The latter would not indicate hate and judgment, but rather a holy respect for the house of God. If they disrupters want to repent, they still can.

Would you, as a pastor, really allow mockers, for example, to disrupt your service with taunts and disturbance...or would you have your ushers escort them out?

Lets cast them out? Who are we to cast out anyone. In my church (no religion) they would be welcome with all of us other sinners. I keep hearing on this forum about getting kicked out of the religion for one reason or another. That is not Christs church. There is way too much religion today and not enough faith. Get rid of your religion and turn to Jesus. Why is this so hard to understand? Jesus should be the start, middle and end to your faith, not some religion. .....and I am not talking just to the LDS here, it is all religion. I loath religion and I love Jesus. I can not tell you how many services (different religions) I have been to and not one mention of Jesus. People here say I point fingers. I am jus bringing out the fact that pointing fingers at sinners is wrong. It lifts you up to say I am just a minor sinner but he.....he is a major sinner. Look at how much better I am. This is what you are doing. It is wrong. In this square, where all the shouting took place, just think how quiet it would be if only the non sinners could shout. You could hear a pin drop. Do you not know that Jesus died for all our sins and yes even these gay sinners. Jesus loves them equally. They need love and teaching. Not mockery.

I know my words are hated by you. It is truth and I stand firm. fire away.

[JohnnyRudick]

Would you, as a pastor, really allow mockers, for example, to disrupt your service with taunts and disturbance...or would you have your ushers escort them out?

Lets cast them out? Who are we to cast out anyone. In my church (no religion) they would be welcome with all of us other sinners. I keep hearing on this forum about getting kicked out of the religion for one reason or another. That is not Christs church. There is way too much religion today and not enough faith. Get rid of your religion and turn to Jesus. Why is this so hard to understand? Jesus should be the start, middle and end to your faith, not some religion. .....and I am not talking just to the LDS here, it is all religion. I loath religion and I love Jesus. I can not tell you how many services (different religions) I have been to and not one mention of Jesus. People here say I point fingers. I am jus bringing out the fact that pointing fingers at sinners is wrong. It lifts you up to say I am just a minor sinner but he.....he is a major sinner. Look at how much better I am. This is what you are doing. It is wrong. In this square, where all the shouting took place, just think how quiet it would be if only the non sinners could shout. You could hear a pin drop. Do you not know that Jesus died for all our sins and yes even these gay sinners. Jesus loves them equally. They need love and teaching. Not mockery.

I know my words are hated by you. It is truth and I stand firm. fire away.

And you care not what they would turn your church into up to the time the police department Vice Squad raided you?

OK:confused:

Bro. Rudick

[pam]

Would you, as a pastor, really allow mockers, for example, to disrupt your service with taunts and disturbance...or would you have your ushers escort them out?

Lets cast them out? Who are we to cast out anyone. In my church (no religion) they would be welcome with all of us other sinners. I keep hearing on this forum about getting kicked out of the religion for one reason or another. That is not Christs church. There is way too much religion today and not enough faith. Get rid of your religion and turn to Jesus. Why is this so hard to understand? Jesus should be the start, middle and end to your faith, not some religion. .....and I am not talking just to the LDS here, it is all religion. I loath religion and I love Jesus. I can not tell you how many services (different religions) I have been to and not one mention of Jesus. People here say I point fingers. I am jus bringing out the fact that pointing fingers at sinners is wrong. It lifts you up to say I am just a minor sinner but he.....he is a major sinner. Look at how much better I am. This is what you are doing. It is wrong. In this square, where all the shouting took place, just think how quiet it would be if only the non sinners could shout. You could hear a pin drop. Do you not know that Jesus died for all our sins and yes even these gay sinners. Jesus loves them equally. They need love and teaching. Not mockery.

I know my words are hated by you. It is truth and I stand firm. fire away.

If you think we are such horrible people, why do you continue to come to this site?

[pam]

Let me put it this way...if someone came to my home and became extremely disrespectful to my family or to my home itself..or pulled out a bottle of whiskey knowing that I was against it...I would ask them not to. If they refused I would ask them to leave and escort them from my home if needed.

Why should this be any different? It's private property and therefore respect and courtesy to the owners should be observed.

[JohnnyRudick]

If you think we are such horrible people, why do you continue to come to this site?

Again, can never find that laugh button when I need it:roflmbo:

[Hemidakota]

I'm always really proud to see how the church deals with situations like this. Its done in a very diplomatic way.

Glad it is the church who handled this vice the destroying angels.

[Hemidakota]

Would you, as a pastor, really allow mockers, for example, to disrupt your service with taunts and disturbance...or would you have your ushers escort them out?

Lets cast them out? Who are we to cast out anyone. In my church (no religion) they would be welcome with all of us other sinners. I keep hearing on this forum about getting kicked out of the religion for one reason or another. That is not Christs church. There is way too much religion today and not enough faith. Get rid of your religion and turn to Jesus. Why is this so hard to understand? Jesus should be the start, middle and end to your faith, not some religion. .....and I am not talking just to the LDS here, it is all religion. I loath religion and I love Jesus. I can not tell you how many services (different religions) I have been to and not one mention of Jesus. People here say I point fingers. I am jus bringing out the fact that pointing fingers at sinners is wrong. It lifts you up to say I am just a minor sinner but he.....he is a major sinner. Look at how much better I am. This is what you are doing. It is wrong. In this square, where all the shouting took place, just think how quiet it would be if only the non sinners could shout. You could hear a pin drop. Do you not know that Jesus died for all our sins and yes even these gay sinners. Jesus loves them equally. They need love and teaching. Not mockery.

I know my words are hated by you. It is truth and I stand firm. fire away.

Does Jesus love Lucifer? Does He love Stalin who murdered over 30-million Russians? Does the Savior love Hitler? What did John see about those who are GOD's henchmen [guardians angels] when the world falls into wickedness?

Putting the word back into its proper meaning, I am gay person [happy individual] and He loves those who strive to be like Him.

[its_Chet]

I keep hearing on this forum about getting kicked out of the religion for one reason or another. That is not Christs church. There is way too much religion today and not enough faith. Get rid of your religion and turn to Jesus.

Why are you here? This website is clearly designed for the discussion of our religion by us and people friendly to us. If you're looking for a Mormon-bashing website, your search is not over and you'd be a lot less frustrated if you moved along now.

But I gather from what you've said so far that you think it's appropriate for people shoot verbal spitballs in a place of reverence, and everyone's supposed to just put up with it. That is not a house of order. That is not reverent. That, sir, is not Christ's Church.

Have you ever considered that when an entire congregation insists that all religion is bad, and that the only proper way to approach God is through some church that is supposedly anti-religion, that those people have organized a religion themselves? Have you ever considered that for a group of people to gather together and, in unison, declare their shared doctrine to be correct, with one of its focal points being that all religion is evil, that they are themselves a religion? In short, have you ever considered that you've made a religion out of pretending you don't have one? Please understand how seriously your criticisms of the true Church of Jesus Christ will be taken here as they are launched from the soap box you've employed thus far. You, like anyone else here, have an organized system of belief, and yet you would not allow anyone else the right to have such a system of belief if it is contrary to your own. You and people like you have made a religion out of nothing more than telling all others that they're wrong. What lost scripture have your ecclesiastical authorities translated? What Gospel principles have they restored? What laws and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ have been reinstituted through the authority of your church, and where did it get whatever authority it claims to have?

We happen to know a little something about Christ's Church, thank you. When you are no longer content to merely have a form of Godliness while denying the power thereof, just let us know. We can teach you more about faith and truth than you have demonstrated ever imagining.

I lack the patience at present to explain to you how and why there is a difference between false religion and true religion, and how writing them all off without making an honest effort to prove the hypothesis is failing to show proper diligence in the pursuit of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I lack the charity at present to search for something in you that is truly willing to put God before your own pride. So I'll just end here, with much left unsaid.

[bytor2112]

We happen to know a little something about Christ's Church, thank you. When you are no longer content to merely have a form of Godliness while denying the power thereof, just let us know. We can teach you more about faith and truth than you have demonstrated ever imagining.

:clap:

[prisonchaplain]

Would you, as a pastor, really allow mockers, for example, to disrupt your service with taunts and disturbance...or would you have your ushers escort them out?

Lets cast them out?

NO. Escort them out. Casting them out might cause injury, which would open the church to unnecessary litigation. Pardon, if my tongue seems to protrude from my cheek, but I decided to fight fire with slightly immature humor.

Who are we to cast out anyone.

Jim, I'm not suggesting we cast out anyone. ESCORTING is far more polite, and is a minimal response to intentional disruption.

In my church (no religion) they would be welcome with all of us other sinners.

Really? Your pastor, speaker, elder, church leadership would welcome intentional mockers to come in to your church, interrupt the service with taunts, jeers, and "civil disobedience homosexual make out sessions," and simply rejoice that they were in the building??? Are you actually picturing what that would look like, or just repeating religious (yes RELIGIOUS) cliches. There is no merit in allowing God's house to become a forum for mockery and sacrilege. Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more, not, "Hey, next time bring it to the Temple."

[JohnnyRudick]

Would you, as a pastor, really allow mockers, for example, to disrupt your service with taunts and disturbance...or would you have your ushers escort them out?

Lets cast them out? Who are we to cast out anyone. In my church (no religion) they would be welcome with all of us other sinners. I keep hearing on this forum about getting kicked out of the religion for one reason or another. That is not Christs church. There is way too much religion today and not enough faith. Get rid of your religion and turn to Jesus. Why is this so hard to understand? . . .

1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is

fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as

named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

1 Corinthians 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather

mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away

from among you.

1 Corinthians 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present

in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present,

concerning him that hath so done this deed,

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye

are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord

Jesus Christ,

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the

destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day

of the Lord Jesus.

1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a

little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye

may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our

passover is sacrificed for us:

1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old

leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but

with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company

with fornicators:

1 Corinthians 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of

this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with

idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep

company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or

covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an

extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

1 Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also

that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

1 Corinthians 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth.

Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with

unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with

unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

2 Corinthians 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or

what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God

with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath

said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their

God, and they shall be my people.

2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be

ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and

I will receive you.

2 Corinthians 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall

be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly

beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the

flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Bro. Rudick

[its_Chet]

NO. Escort them out. Casting them out might cause injury, which would open the church to unnecessary litigation. Pardon, if my tongue seems to protrude from my cheek, but I decided to fight fire with slightly immature humor.

There is no merit in allowing God's house to become a forum for mockery and sacrilege. Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more, not, "Hey, next time bring it to the Temple."

Dang, prisonchaplain! Your idea of slightly immature humor is what I consider class and dignity! I hope that says more good about you than it does bad about me. :)

[JohnnyRudick]

Dang, prisonchaplain! Your idea of slightly immature humor is what I consider class and dignity! I hope that says more good about you than it does bad about me. :)

Still Lookin' for that "Laugh Button":roflmbo:

[prisonchaplain]

Jesus cast them out...

12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

13 And said unto them, It is written, My ahouse shall be called the house of bprayer; but ye have made it a cden of thieves.

(New Testament | Matthew 21:12 - 13)

If we ask ourselves WWJD....

First century Jerusalem was a far less litigious society than modern day America. My guess is that Jesus would have escorted them out. Likewise, he might have carefully packed and boxed the tables and supplies.

[Moksha]

And as far as America bashing goes, I say "Love it or leave it".

I have heard this "If you don't like it, you can leave", said by my fellow Utahans so many times when someone dares criticize something about our state. Would you extend this to our beautiful Deseret state as well?

[its_Chet]

I have heard this "If you don't like it, you can leave", said by my fellow Utahans so many times when someone dares criticize something about our state. Would you extend this to our beautiful Deseret state as well?

It's not mine to extend, but yes, I would. If I didn't love where I live, I'd feel the responsibility to leave, myself. The only other option history seems to exhibit is for malcontents to antagonize those around them and demand that an entire culture adapt to them, rather than adapting to the culture around them which was there first. Kind of reminds me of all those people I saw with "Darwin fishes" on their cars when I lived in Salt Lake City, except that some of them moved to Salt Lake City and expected it to conform to them rather than vice versa.

You gotta respect the culture. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

No offense intended.

[Moksha]

Kind of reminds me of all those people I saw with "Darwin fishes" on their cars when I lived in Salt Lake City, except that some of them moved to Salt Lake City and expected it to conform to them rather than vice versa.

You gotta respect the culture. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

So would

• If a Darwin fish offends thee cast it out, or
• Why do we see the fish in our brother's eye but fail to notice the shark in our own?

be more applicable in this situation? Tough choices.

:)

[JohnnyRudick]

. . .Why do we see the fish in our brother's eye but fail to notice the shark in our own? . . . Tough choices. :)

Not really:huh:

My shark can eat your fish:D

Or did I miss something;)

[its_Chet]

So would

• If a Darwin fish offends thee cast it out, or
• Why do we see the fish in our brother's eye but fail to notice the shark in our own?

be more applicable in this situation? Tough choices.

:)

This much I know:

The members of the Church I knew in Salt Lake City were all, without exception, salt of the earth type people. So were most of the non members and inactive people that I occastionally came into contact with.

But there were bitter non members I met who moved in from somewhere else and resented the high concentration of LDS and the prevailing culture that resulted, and every person I met who had a Darwin fish on the back of their car was the kind of person that makes you count the seconds until you can get away from them.

That's not something I read in a book, but something I observed personally.

I hear a lot about "those Utah Mormons" from uppity people in the Church, who live in other places where the LDS population is similarly concentrated, but I have found members of the Church from Utah to be truly wonderful people. More often that not, it's their critics who reveal signs of an attitude problem, especially people who come to Salt Lake City and are not charitable enough to grant the members of the Church the same cultural rights as Catholics rightfully get in Rome, for example.

So I have a much higher opinion of LDS from Utah than I do of people with Darwin fishes on their cars as a result of my own life experiences. If you feel the need to be my optometrist, feel free, I guess. I really don't see what there is to get all worked up about though.:chillpill:

[Guest dec2057]

I will say that I have had many walks with my wife through Temple Square and probably more than a few times had her kiss me on the cheek and saw many other couples there giving similar public displays of affection without rousing any concern from security. I think that statements like "politely asked to stop engaging in inappropriate behavior — just as any other couple would have been" are blatantly false from my experience, especially with something like a kiss on the cheek. I don't think either side is claiming they were sitting in Temple Square sucking face or anything like that.

Yes, they should have left when asked since it is private property, but I also have no doubt they were singled out for being homosexual as well and I would have much more respect for the people involved if they simply said that the reason they were asked to leave was because the they are not comfortable with public displays of homosexual affection.

So yes, it is entirely possible that the couple came to Temple Square specifically to make a point and/or draw media attention, but in my opinion it is also quite possible that they were simply enjoying the beauty of Temple Square and became somewhat understandably confrontational after feeling blatantly discriminated against.

Hey, did you read the news articles? They were coming back from attending a music concert, got disgusting and were intoxicated. Here is the article from the news:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

* Gay Couple Detained Near Mormon Plaza After Kiss

Matt Aune has said he and his partner, Derek Jones, exchanged a modest kiss at the plaza 11 days ago, but church officials contend their behavior was lewd.

"There was much more involved that a simple kiss of the cheek," Farah said in a statement Friday. "They engaged in passionate kissing, groping, profane and lewd language, and had obviously been using alcohol."

The men have said they were walking home from a nearby concert and cutting through the plaza on their way home.

A police report said they sat down for a kiss and were approached by a pair of church security guards, who asked them to leave because their behavior was "unwanted."

-----------------------------------------------------------

I wouldn't have cared if they were gay or it was a straight couple - it's unacceptable. EEEEuuuuwwww! No one wants to see that.

[HEthePrimate]

IMHO the gay couple thought it would be funny to smooch in the heart of prop-8 land. They likely have no respect for the sanctity of the place, because they believe the Church to be a promoter of hate, and therefore unworthy of basic decent treatment. It just all seemed rather "in your face," rather than an innocent act of two people who did not quite realize where they were. Their confrontational attitude towards the security people only enhances my suspicions.

This protest is not about smooching on Mormon grounds. It is about further efforts to humiliate and cause to cower political enemies of the same sex marriage proponents.

Hey, welcome to America where we have freedom of speech. That includes speech we find offensive. If they refused to leave LDS property and were charged with trespassing, that's one thing, and the Church is within its rights to do something about it. However, I have a hard time feeling sorry for the Church because these people were "in your face," confrontational, or disrespectful. They'd be wise not to do exercise their freedom of speech on Church property in the future, but I can certainly understand why they want to make a statement. This is not a political issue the Church should have gotten involved in, IMO.

Peace,

HEP