Baptist next door

[beefche]

I think a FHE is in order to teach your children about tolerance, love, kindness, and tact. And then give the example as you go out of your way to be kind and friendly to this neighbor and the family. I honestly don't think I'd bring it up at all. Just be a great neighbor--offering to help in the yard, pick up mail when they are on vacation, give some of your garden tomatoes to them, sing Christmas carols to them, etc. I would also be aware of anything going on in their life--birthdays, graduations, anything big and celebrate it with them--sugary goodies are always accepted.

[freckleface]

It's pretty shocking that first time you hear someone say hurtful things about your faith. Sort of takes your breath away. I've heard them all, too.

I like a lot of the ideas presented here. Especially the barbque . . . nothing like a good burger and some potato salad to warm the heart. I'll have to try it on my own family.

[BenRaines]

I have been LDS for almost 40 years. I have not seen one piece of literature that the LDS church produces that says any other church and it's members are going to hell.

As a missionary when we talked with someone and they expressed no interest in LDS faith or hearing about it we encouraged them to attend the church of their choice.

Our responsibility is not to judge anyone but to be Christlike.

Ben Raines

[Heavenguard]

It shames me when other Christians, esp Baptists (as I am one) act like that. Shoulda seen some of the attitude that went around in my group when we were talking about reaching out and listening to our gay neighbours.

Anyhow, Jesus taught us to love. That's all I got. If this guy cant figure it out, well, be the better example. I would not try to refer this person to any passages in the Bible about loving your neighbours. He will probably be offended that a heathen point out his religious flaws and get an even worse attitude.

If you bring cookies and try to make friendly and he rejects it, then try to at least have an agreement to be civil and neighbourly, as you are neighbours. Maybe some ground rules would help. Perhaps you could both agree not to speak to each other about religion/faith? I know most people see Mormons and try to avoid as best they can because they don't want to be preached at.

[Seanette]

And a lot of LDS cringe at dealing with the more fundamentalist end of Protestantism because of similar problems with having preaching rammed down our throats, with a generous dose of "I know better than you do what your church teaches, and it's evil".

In my experience the most venomous attacks on other churches do come from the Baptist/Assemblies of God/Pentecostal end of the Protestant spectrum. I've attended various churches fitting that description, BTW, and that's where I was getting anti-Mormon, anti-Catholic, anti-(insert denomination) stuff preached at me from the pulpit and having that literature urged on me.

[prisonchaplain]

There is no excuse for rudeness, and an adult telling a child not to sing an innoculous hymn is boorish. On the other hand, at least some of the "anti" literature being condemned is targeted evangelism. You may not like it. YOur church doesn't engage in it. But it's not an inherently evil practice. "When in Rome, do as the Romans." So, those who wish to evangelize in areas with heavy LDS population might learn some key doctrines and practices, and attempt to engage in conversations that lead to conversion to evangelical Christianity. From our point of view, this is akin to Paul saying to the Pagans, "I see you have this unknown God, let me explain who He is."

I have no interest in defending lies in print, or blatant attacks (i.e. Jack Chick stuff). But at least some of the Southern Baptist and Assemblies of God materials makes a reasoned attempt to be honest, show differences, and, of course, argue for an evangelical understanding of the Plan of Salvation.

When LDS missionaries speak to householders about the Great Apostasy, are they not, though with less precision, targeting Protestants and Catholics for evangelism and conversion? No, it's not the same, and LDS stuff is generally more polite, more postive, more "soft sell." But, to pretend that all non-LDS evangelism of LDS is "anti" and hateful, and rude and Westboro Baptist-ish is not quite fair, imho.

[Seanette]

PC, quite frankly, I have never experienced in the fundamentalist end of Protestantism any effort at "reasoned" or "honest" when it comes to discussion of LDS belief. When an Assemblies of God pastor urged me to read "The Godmakers", claiming it to be completely factual, and when I heard similar claims made by Baptist pastors, that didn't exactly impress me with their concern for accuracy. Once I thought over the material I was being presented about Mormons and found out just how distorted and inaccurate it was, I concluded that I couldn't depend on that theological POV to be accurate about anything without verification.

That verification, BTW, is how I wound up LDS.

Of the various fundamentalists I've interacted with since becoming LDS, maybe 5% or so have any clue about what is really taught in my church. The rest rely on Ed Decker, the Tanners, et. al., and claim the (IMO highly unscriptural) right to decide whether I believe that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior or not, while accusing me of lying when I state the truth of my faith.

Your end of the spectrum really could stand to not be trumpeting that they are the ones who decide who is a Christian. That's up to God, IMO.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Seanette
reword for clarity

[prisonchaplain]

Seanette, Godmakers falls somewhat ahead of Jack Chick, but no, that would not be on my top-10 list of evangelical materials about your faith. I'm thinking more along the lines of The New Mormon Challenge, and some of the joint evangelical-LDS "conversations" that are going on, such as those Robert Millet (LDS) is engaged in, efforts by Standing Together (an evangelical group that strongly opposes conference picketers, and encourages christlike discourse). Robert Mouw, president of Fuller Seminary, is another positive example.

My point is not to dismiss some truly poor evangelical behavior, but rather to point out that some of us are doing better.

[Seanette]

Funny how few of those I see online or in real life. The Deckerites are MUCH more common, and claim to be the TRUE Christians, with anyone who disagrees with their theology or their approach to evangelism actively working on behalf of Satan.

I'd suggest that evangelicals really need to find a way to rein in or disassociate from the Deckerites if you want LDS and other "cultists" (in their terms, this includes Catholics and just about everyone who doesn't agree exactly with their theology) to not cringe at dealing with evangelicals. The Deckerite types have really poisoned the evangelical image in inter-denominational discussion, and they ARE the most vocal and seemingly the most numerous. (Probably because more civilized types like you are busy with Christian service and your own spiritual lives instead of defining yourselves by hate.)

[Guest TheLutheran]

. . . go out of your way to be kind and friendly to this neighbor and the family. I honestly don't think I'd bring it up at all. Just be a great neighbor--offering to help in the yard, pick up mail when they are on vacation, give some of your garden tomatoes to them, sing Christmas carols to them, etc. I would also be aware of anything going on in their life--birthdays, graduations, anything big and celebrate it with them--sugary goodies are always accepted.

it always puzzles me when we fail to be direct in our human interactions. I'm not advocating a smackdown but its so less complicated when everybody shoots straight.

LDS are known for their extraordinary efforts to spread their gospel (2-year missions by young men and women; baptism for the dead). The LDS church is often labeled one of the "fastest growing" religions and this can be threatening to non-LDS. Your neighbors may fear that you want to convert them or their children. If that's the case, the neighborly behaviors described above without mentioning the beliefs issue might be misinterpreted.

I was surprised to learn of Article of Faith #11 a couple of years ago. I don't mean to offend my cyber LDS friends but in my lifetime of real world interactions with LDS friends and neighbors, it wasn't a principle always demonstrated. We do, however, have the best relationships with those that do live that principle.

Do all those great neighborly things Beefche suggested but address the beliefs issue. Otherwise, your neighbors are going think they are #1 on your list of prospective converts.

[pam]

Might be good to have these Baptists over for a barbecue. When we get to know each other as people, our judgments become kinder.

If I tell you I'm Baptist, can I come over for a barbecue?

[prisonchaplain]

Concerning Ed Dekker, CARM, the Tanners, etc., while many LDS are so very familiar with them, most evangelicals are not. Frankly, I'm in a minority, in that I have seen the Godmaker films. I've seen the CARM website, but not Dekker's work, and not much from the Tanners either. And...I'm a minister--a chaplain even (we deal more in interfaith dialogue). So, the demands for evangelicals to denounce, disassociate, distance, etc. leave us flat-footed. When I see video clips of sign waving, BoM stomping, sacred-G desecrating "evangelists," it's easy for me to say, "Oh wow...that's terrible...that's certainly not what we're about." And indeed, in a heartfelt and risky move, President Mouw (Fuller Seminary) did offer an apology for evangelical misbehavior.

When you run into Trolls and "Antis"--yes, they are likely full of shallow but fervent prooftexts and unverified factoids, often skewed, decontextualized, and misstated. On the other hand, when you meet the typical evangelical coworker, neighbor, or just chance encounter, quite often they'll know little of the propaganda, and little of your church. So keep your theological stick behind your back until you know whether or not the evangelical in front of you is a discourser or a contender. :-)

[Seanette]

Yet again, by far the majority of self-identifying evangelicals I have had experience with (and please quit ignoring the experience you are being informed of) are of the "anti-everyone who doesn't believe the way I do" variety and are rather nasty about it.

Your more civilized approach is nowhere near a significant fraction of self-identifying evangelicals I have encountered, before my conversion or after, whether or not that person knew me to be LDS.

[prisonchaplain]

Seanette, in the last several posts I carefully stated that there are those who are offensive, and that there is no defense for boorish, dishonest or intentionally inflammatory tactics. Not for a post did I intend to ignore your experience. Rather, I hoped you see that I do indeed regret what some of my bretheren have unwisely dished out to you. At the same time, there are those doing better--on both sides. By highlighting those who take the higher road I wanted to encourage broadmindedness and discourage prejudgment (he's got a KJV, must be an Anti and a troll!!!).

Bottom-line: Each of us should do better ourselves. Those who have ears to hear will respond better, those who do not will continue to exercise their free agency...let God deal with them.

[Moksha]

You may not like it. Your church doesn't engage in it. But it's not an inherently evil practice. "When in Rome, do as the Romans."

Would prefer it if they behaved in a Christ-like manner.

When LDS missionaries speak to householders about the Great Apostasy, are they not, though with less precision, targeting Protestants and Catholics for evangelism and conversion? No, it's not the same, and LDS stuff is generally more polite, more positive, more "soft sell."

You are right. Getting one's message across should not come at the expense of other.

But, to pretend that all non-LDS evangelism of LDS is "anti" and hateful, and rude and Westboro Baptist-ish is not quite fair, imho.

That would be an unfair overstatement on our part. I suppose it would depend upon what was said. The Westboro approach seems rather Satanic in origin.

[ploomf]

I think part of the problem if that people tend to remember the rude people over the polite ones. I'm certainly guilty of this and I do this with all areas of my life not just religion. I've met more polite and sincere evangelicals than rude ones but I tend to remember the rude ones more. I don't think it's fair to tar an entire group of people based on the actions of a few. Now granted this is a very loud and vocal few and they are very out there and in your face but I still think that they are just a small percentage of the evangelicals in this country.

[prisonchaplain]

Would prefer it if they behaved in a Christ-like manner.

Christ was gentle with Gentiles, and the most direct with religious leaders. Be careful what you wish for...

You are right. Getting one's message across should not come at the expense of other.

And that's the crux of what is wrong with much of "confrontational evangelism." Instead of contending for truth with the world, Paul's command to do so was in the context of false believers WITHIN the church. When approaching Gentiles or non-Christians, the New Testament example is always one of caution, gentleness, and care. It's just not loud.

That would be an unfair overstatement on our part. I suppose it would depend upon what was said. The Westboro approach seems rather Satanic in origin.

IMHO some of the worst offenders (conference protestors and the like) are the product of bad teaching combined with personality imbalances.

[Moksha]

IMHO some of the worst offenders (conference protestors and the like) are the product of bad teaching combined with personality imbalances.

So the Westboro group would be more suited to an analyst's couch than an exorcism, eh?

I remember when they said they were going to haunt President Hinckley's funeral. I was so glad when that fizzled. Whatever the imbalance or bad teachings, I hope they get the help they need.

.

[prisonchaplain]

If it's any consolation, they picketed the Assemblies of God Headquarters and Jerry Falwell's church too.

[Jamie123]

Good old Jerry Falwell!!

ARMINIAN TRUTH FOREVER!!!!