deseretgov Posted August 10, 2009 Report Share Posted August 10, 2009 Truth is you simply dont believe Christ is who he says he is.Plain and simpleSo if a person really believes in Christ then they will do certain thing because they are the natural result of a true belief?Or were you specifically refering to Gatorman? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 Truth is you simply dont believe Christ is who he says he is.Plain and simple I believe that Jesus taught that we should (must?) lie up in store "treasures" in heaven for us to benefit. It appears to me that you are saying Jesus was a liar - that there is no “treasure” in heaven that we can "earn" by our efforts? I am sorry - but I disagree with your assessment. I believe Jesus wants us to earn the treasures in heaven and that he will teach us and help us earn all the treasures of heaven. But if you are not interested in what Jesus taught – You may quote someone else in scripture you think is of greater importance to you than Jesus.The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antsyl Posted August 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 I believe that Jesus taught that we should (must?) lie up in store "treasures" in heaven for us to benefit. It appears to me that you are saying Jesus was a liar - that there is no “treasure” in heaven that we can "earn" by our efforts? I am sorry - but I disagree with your assessment. I believe Jesus wants us to earn the treasures in heaven and that he will teach us and help us earn all the treasures of heaven. But if you are not interested in what Jesus taught – You may quote someone else in scripture you think is of greater importance to you than Jesus.The TravelerIt appears to me that the Mormon religion seems to promote that Jesus Christ and His death on the cross with not sufficient, that you as a mormon need to do something to help Him to get you some pass into heaven. I think you are going to be really surprised some day.I give up on talking to people in this forum. I will leave you to your own devices. Work hard on your salvation. You only have this life to do enough good to buy your ticket to where ever you are going. One good thing is that I have received a great education on what to talk to my family members that are mormons. I really have some work to do.This place makes me sad for you all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antsyl Posted August 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 No need to respond to my last post. I wont be posting here any longer. The fact that you think you can do good deeds to get into heaven is proof that you dont really realize the cost of your sin. You will never be able to pay that debt. You are dead in your sins. Dead people can do nothing to bring themselves back to life. I dont know why I even came here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatorman Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 *looks back through the posts for a post that said that we could get into heaven simply by works. Works without faith are wasted. Faith without works are dead. Neither will see you in Heavenly Father or Christ's presence, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 Truth is you simply dont believe Christ is who he says he is.Plain and simpleTypical troll response. If you don't believe the way I want you to believe - then you don't believe Christ. Don't you have something more creative they teach you in anti- school... like if you believe that, then you believe Jesus is a liar?Blahhhh.Is there are reason you are avoid post #16? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatorman Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 *looks around for the sky to be falling, the date to be 12/21/12, or some other sign...Thank you Snow. I agree with you on this.Typical troll response. If you don't believe the way I want you to believe - then you don't believe Christ. Don't you have something more creative they teach you in anti- school... like if you believe that, then you believe Jesus is a liar?Blahhhh.Is there are reason you are avoid post #16? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beefche Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 I honestly don't understand the OP. Jesus asked that question and it has deeper meaning than the simplicity of it. When a complete stranger asks that and actually references Jesus and His statement...well, seems presumptuous to me. I don't know you. You don't know me. A question such as this tells me that you have something more to say that simply, "hey get to know me." So, tell me again. What's the point of this question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 I honestly don't understand the OP. Jesus asked that question and it has deeper meaning than the simplicity of it. When a complete stranger asks that and actually references Jesus and His statement...well, seems presumptuous to me. I don't know you. You don't know me. A question such as this tells me that you have something more to say that simply, "hey get to know me."So, tell me again. What's the point of this question?Stick around beefche, you'll figure it out.It's a standard routine. Evangelical comes on site; professes innocent motives; poses a few questions... the question is how many posts will it take before the poster reveals their real motives, ie denigrating the faith of members of The Church of Jesus Christ while elevating his/her own, and thus their delicate sense of worth.You can almost always tell by post number 2 but I usually don't call them on it right away until they dig themselves a bit of a hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 This thread gets me a little on the tee'd off side. Obviously antsyl was not looking for answers because he did not even try to see our point of view on the matter. He was only waiting for somebody to say, you're right antsyl. Your evangelical faith is the only way and we, the LDS, are all morons. What kind of mindset does it take for somebody to go into an LDS site and expect LDS members to agree with him when obviously they have a difference in doctrine? Goodness gracious! I saw it on post #1 Snow... hence my response to just provide the links to the other troll threads to save us some keystrokes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 Well - if antsyl returns, I hope I can get some answers from him. ... since Mormons have faith in Christ and that is all that is required, then what's the problem if on top of doing the minimun (believing) we go the extra mile and actually try and obey God? Does obeying God negate your faith in Him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deseretgov Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 Well I've had great fun sinning! Good thing antsyl showed up and showed me the error of following Christ. I guess it took a real believer in Christ to show me the error of my ways. I don't really have to follow Christ. I just have to believe in Him. Life is SO much easier now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunkyTown Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 Well I've had great fun sinning! Good thing antsyl showed up and showed me the error of following Christ. I guess it took a real believer in Christ to show me the error of my ways. I don't really have to follow Christ. I just have to believe in Him. Life is SO much easier now!I notice that he didn't answer my, 'So... Wait... Which of the qualities are you referring to that Satan doesn't fulfill?' question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deseretgov Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 I notice that he didn't answer my, 'So... Wait... Which of the qualities are you referring to that Satan doesn't fulfill?' question. Yeah. Isn't it awesome Satan will be saved too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 It appears to me that the Mormon religion seems to promote that Jesus Christ and His death on the cross with not sufficient, that you as a mormon need to do something to help Him to get you some pass into heaven. I think you are going to be really surprised some day.I give up on talking to people in this forum. I will leave you to your own devices. Work hard on your salvation. You only have this life to do enough good to buy your ticket to where ever you are going. One good thing is that I have received a great education on what to talk to my family members that are mormons. I really have some work to do.This place makes me sad for you all. You said that you will look no longer to this forum. Never-the-less I feel that your remarks deserve a response. I believe that G-d will force no one to heaven or hell. Only those that want to be in heaven will be there. Likewise only those that want to be in hell will be there. Jesus Christ and His death on the cross with not sufficient for Satan and his followers.The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deseretgov Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 ...that you as a mormon need to do something to help Him to get you some pass into heaven. I think you are going to be really surprised some day.What's the worst that is going to happen? After all you said all we need to do is believe. So the worst than can happen is Christ will tell us we didn't need to do all that extra stuff. We'll still make it into heaven, according to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmy- Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 It appears to me that the Mormon religion seems to promote that Jesus Christ and His death on the cross with not sufficient, that you as a mormon need to do something to help Him to get you some pass into heaven. I think you are going to be really surprised some day.I give up on talking to people in this forum. I will leave you to your own devices. Work hard on your salvation. You only have this life to do enough good to buy your ticket to where ever you are going. One good thing is that I have received a great education on what to talk to my family members that are mormons. I really have some work to do.This place makes me sad for you all.Don't let the door hit you on the way out, Grow some skin. If you sincerely believed in what you posted above you would not be leaving this forum. Instead, you would be doing every bit of what you could to "save" us like a 'true' Christian should -- no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john doe Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 Well, if merely believing in Jesus is the ticket to heaven and I choose to take that concept further and help my fellow man by doing good works, where is the harm in that? Does my doing good works automatically condemn me to hell somehow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 I dont know why I even came here.That officially makes it unanimous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanette Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 What's the worst that is going to happen? After all you said all we need to do is believe. So the worst than can happen is Christ will tell us we didn't need to do all that extra stuff. We'll still make it into heaven, according to you.Not according to most evangelicals I've heard comment. You see, if you do the extra stuff, that somehow constitutes "rejecting" or "negating" Christ's Atonement and trying to save yourself by yourself, which of course can't be done.And of course, a Jesus the Christ who actually expects to be obeyed as a demonstration of the faith needed for His grace to kick in is supposedly not the Jesus the Christ of the Bible. Didn't you know all this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 I agree antsyl. That was a perfectly accurate answer to the idea that good works are not required. If good works are not required, why did Christ teach them, by example and word, and then tell us all we should be like him? Can we have faith and NOT do works? Is it possible? Or, would such faith be as empty as deseretgov's example would have been. The flaw in the 'faith' only thinking is that it gives you a 'get out of jail free' card. Would someone who truly believes in Christ not try to do good works? Would they not 'work' to follow the commandments? Would someone who does NOT do those things truly have any real faith? Here's my analogy for salvation and all it entails.Conversion = impregnationBaptism = deliveryLearning and obeying Christ's commands = growing Obeying Christ's commands is not necessary for conversion or baptism. Baptism is not necessary for conversion. But, if there is no follow through, the baby will die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 It appears to me that the Mormon religion seems to promote that Jesus Christ and His death on the cross with not sufficient, that you as a mormon need to do something to help Him to get you some pass into heaven. I think you are going to be really surprised some day.I give up on talking to people in this forum. I will leave you to your own devices. Work hard on your salvation. You only have this life to do enough good to buy your ticket to where ever you are going. One good thing is that I have received a great education on what to talk to my family members that are mormons. I really have some work to do.This place makes me sad for you all. Antsyl, you and I probably share more in our faith and beliefs than I do with the LDS at this site. And yet, I've found this to be a place with sincere discussion is welcome. I've been here close to four years, without finding it frustrating, or finding I need to shake the dust off my feet and move on. Jesus reserved his frustration for leaders in his own "church"--so why the flustration here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 Well - if antsyl returns, I hope I can get some answers from him.... since Mormons have faith in Christ and that is all that is required, then what's the problem if on top of doing the minimun (believing) we go the extra mile and actually try and obey God?Does obeying God negate your faith in Him? Let me make this even more muddied, if I may. I am convinced that there were at least some sincere Christians in the Jim Jones cult and the Branch Davidian cult (the former mostly died in a mass suicide, the latter in a failed government raid). Those that died with sincere faith, despite having been deceived by false prophets/leaders, will receive entry into the kingdom of heaven.And really, when it comes down to it, if someone has a personal testimony to their own right relationship with God, no amount of doctrinal debate is going to reverse that. When I joust over particular doctrines, I may hope that some here would see at least the reasoning behind my beliefs. Any changes of mind, heart or soul are between God and his child. Wow...that does sound a bit LDS doesn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 If "all we needed" was Christ's works then all men would inherit eternal life. That is as simple and basic as the logic gets. The fact is, even if you believe that a man must "believe," you still think that man must do something. The scriptures are very clear that there is something required by the man. What truth you need to add to it is that without Christ it is impossible, so it doesn't matter what men do without Him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 Justice, you are, of course, right that no matter how grace-focused evangelicals are, we require a response. The only group that can truly say it's all God are those Predestination folk who believe God simply picks who will be saved and who won't. Those who will have no choice--the grace is irresistable. On the other hand, we'd argue that accepting a gift (the response) is not a work, in the sense that Ephesians 2:8-9 meant. We cannot curry God's favor, or merit it. Yet, it's available to all. What we can do is receive it. BUT, true reception must needs be life-changing, Part and parcel of that change will be the production of good works. When I say "I'm saved, sanctified, filled with the Holy Ghost, etc." I am bragging on God, not myself. I must decrease that He may increase. Ironically, day in and day out, the ideal LDS and the ideal evangelical would lead very similar lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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