Tolerance

[Maxel]

I fear it's being pushed way too hard on the rising generation.

My little sister had a back-to-school night for her public high school. Everywhere- in the classrooms, hallways, cafeteria...- were posters advocating tolerance and the acceptance of diversity. In my days of high schooling (a whole 5 years ago) I remember posters promoting personal virtues were the main wall decorations (I attended a charter school). I can't help but remember President Monson's remarks that sin often wears the halloween mask of tolerance a few General Conferences ago, and I'm wondering...

Can a neglect of fostering personal virtues, coupled with the belief that "whatsoever a man does is no sin" and tolerance of diversity is prized as a virtue of the highest caliber lead to the bleak homogenization of the world and to (conspiracy theory alert!) some sort of global government?

I'm reminded of the slogan on the coin that the Russian president presented as a prototype of a new world currency: "United in Diversity". It seems this kind of unification- the kind that comes because of diversity- is replacing the kind of unification that comes from believing similar values. The new kind of diversity can be summed up in the phrase "Divided we Stand"- but we know that a house divided against itself cannot stand. I think we see the common thread throughout history is that people don't come together unless they have a common, core value- such as a belief in God and/or that God favors a certain cause (their cause).

One of my fears is that the devil will rage in the hearts of men who accept tolerance as the highest virtue, causing them to band together against those that believe in God- uniting them in a cause: the cause of hating righteousness. Those believing in tolerance of all kinds of wickedness will not be able to tolerate righteousness.

Of course, if all this does happen, it's years away and would require more than a few natural and man-made disasters to push people to the 'edge of insanity', as it were.

Just rambling... I'm troubled tonight.

[pam]

I honestly feel there is a good tolerance and a bad tolerance.

You have the good tolerance where patience is required. For example: someone that is handicapped that might be taking just a few minutes longer at the check out stand then you would like.

But then you have the bad tolerance..that we need to just put up with foul language, pornography, and other things that tear us down. Or with those whose only agenda is to tear down our beliefs and our Church.

Good subject Maxel.

[Maxel]

You have the good tolerance where patience is required. For example: someone that is handicapped that might be taking just a few minutes longer at the check out stand then you would like.

But then you have the bad tolerance..that we need to just put up with foul language, pornography, and other things that tear us down. Or with those whose only agenda is to tear down our beliefs and our Church.

Exactly! Well put.

I fear that accepting the general idea of "tolerance"- both the good and bad kind- while neglecting the fostering of personal virtues within one's self (and especially neglecting one's personal duty to God) will lead to the good kind of tolerance dying wihin ourselves and the bad kind of tolerance festering.

[deseretgov]

Yes, I've added tolerence to my list of dirty words. It's sitting there alongside Democracy. I'm more than happy to say I'm a bigot against bad things.

I find it odd that tolerance only goes so far. We are told to be tolerant of homosexuals. But why aren't they being tolerant of our current views? Shouldn't we be tolerant with murderers too? Or are we just supposed to be tolerant to the degree that certain people can do what they want and not get told it's bad?

But a note on Pam's good tolerance. That should also be extended to sinners. Maybe a person(ourselves included) is taking a bit longer repenting and trying to be righteous than we would like.

I can't and wont condone behaviour that I feel to be wrong. But I will love the sinner. It's possible to love a person but to hate, reject, and condemn certain things they are doing. Afterall I'm a sinner too. I would expect people to still love me even though I do not always to right things.

[Connie]

I can't and wont condone behaviour that I feel to be wrong. But I will love the sinner. It's possible to love a person but to hate, reject, and condemn certain things they are doing. Afterall I'm a sinner too. I would expect people to still love me even though I do not always to right things.

Well said!

[sixpacktr]

You're right about tolerance being used by Satan, I believe, to push sin upon the children of men. For ages, we were counseled to 'hate the sin, but love the sinner'. That should still be our watchword (or watchphrase, whichever fits), but what has happened is that if you criticize the behavior, people automatically take it that you are criticizing them. Any fault you may have is paraded out as proof that you have no right to say the things you do, and it is a great tool of Satan's to silence criticism of certain behaviors (homosexuality, promiscuity, talking like a sailor, etc). If we are not perfect in every respect, then we have no right to raise concerns about behaviors in their view.

Also on this board we need to realize that criticizing or discussion of your POV doesn't mean that you are thought of as stupid, etc. Personally, I think that Pres Obama is a disaster AS A PRESIDENT. But I believe that he is a good father to his kids, and that I might even like him personally if I had the chance to get to know him. But if I criticize any of his policies, then I am intolerant, etc.

So to get back, yes, 'tolerance' is being co-opted to mean that anything goes, and that if you don't accept that, you are either racist/homophobic/self-righteous/a hater, etc (take your pick, depending on the issue).

[Misshalfway]

Anyone have any ideas about how to combat this? Make sure our kids know the difference?

Sometimes I worry as I see parents and church members confused about this.

I often think also there is tolerance of people and tolerance of behavior. Sometimes it is hard to separate the too and people get offended so easily these days. I get frustrated when this popular version of "tolerance" is used to promote a society where anything goes......well, anything that tells me I can't do something anyway. :) I actually don't think this mentality can back up even its own platform as it demands tolerance for itself, but withdraws tolerance from people who oppose it.

[sixpacktr]

Perhaps D&C 121 is the way to combat this? 'Rebuking betimes (often) when moved upon by the HG, but afterwards showing an increase of love lest he esteem thee as his enemy' or something like that. Perhaps as we raise our children we show that type of attitude. We discipline them for the things they do that are wrong, but we love them the more so that they don't think we are their enemy.

Someone on this board has a great quote about criticizing others is the utmost sign of friendship/love, in that we want to see them do better, and if we didn't love them we wouldn't give a fat rat's behind what they did. But because we love them, we want them to know the truth and do better.

At least, that is what my wife tells me all of the time!!!

Edited August 21, 2009 by sixpacktr

[sixpacktr]

I was just thinking about this and remembered the sons of Mosiah. The famous verse in Alma where the very thought of anyone being cast into hell made them quake, being sorrowful and scared for them. I have to think that during their 14 year missions that they were called 'intolerant' for teaching the gospel and not accepting the traditions of the Lamanites, maybe even that they were laman-phobic...

We have a responsibility to teach truth and stand for righteousness, in order to help others find Christ and come unto him. But we will be subject to the same ridicule as the Savior himself was.

Edited August 21, 2009 by sixpacktr

[Danite]

The key word in D&C 121 is showing a increase of love, not telling. Some of us think telling and showing are the same thing. passivity is not necesarily morality

[Moksha]

We are told to be tolerant of homosexuals. But why aren't they being tolerant of our current views? Shouldn't we be tolerant with murderers too? Or are we just supposed to be tolerant to the degree that certain people can do what they want and not get told it's bad?

Those are good questions. Perhaps the answer is in the behavior itself. Asking the question, is the behavior injurious to myself or others is a good starting point to determine our degree of tolerance.

[john doe]

But then you have the bad tolerance..that we need to just put up with foul language, pornography, and other things that tear us down. Or with those whose only agenda is to tear down our beliefs and our Church.

There you go again Pam. Why can't you be more tolerant of those who come here only to point out our 'inconsistencies'? They're just here to help you see how wrong you are to think like that. Please, be a little more tolerant and not offended in the future.

[hordak]

I think tolerance is great. The problem is that many people confuse tolerance( a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own ) with acceptance ( to give admittance or approval to

to endure without protest or reaction,).

and they are to different things. I find that when most people ask for tolerance they actually want acceptance.

[Maxel]

Anyone have any ideas about how to combat this? Make sure our kids know the difference?

I've got the primary answer: study and learn about Christ!

Actually, in my life, I've found that the best way to combat false doctrine is to learn correct doctrine. My current game plan (not being a father) is to teach my future children scripture stories when they're first being able to understand them. Also, I plan to use William J. Bennett's The Book of Virtues as a text to teach my children the basic virtues taught therein- Self-Discipline, Compassion, Responsibility, Friendship, Work, Courage, Perseverance, Honesty, Loyalty, and Faith. The third part of my three-pronged tactic is to provide the best example I can and the safest, most righteous home I can.

I often think also there is tolerance of people and tolerance of behavior. Sometimes it is hard to separate the too and people get offended so easily these days. I get frustrated when this popular version of "tolerance" is used to promote a society where anything goes......well, anything that tells me I can't do something anyway. :) I actually don't think this mentality can back up even its own platform as it demands tolerance for itself, but withdraws tolerance from people who oppose it.

Agreed. At least one thing I think is constant in Satan's plans and strategies is the fact that they're founded on hypocrtical philosophies- and the philosophy of 'valueless tolerance' (the bad kind of tolerance; acceptance of the negative behavior) is most definitely hypocritical and void of real charity.

[Maxel]

I think tolerance is great. The problem is that many people confuse tolerance... with acceptance...

and they are to different things. I find that when most people ask for tolerance they actually want acceptance.

Agreed; I think those crying for tolerance want acceptance and validation. When Prop 8 was the hot topic, the poster interalia posted a great blog about what legalizing gay marriage is really about (validation of the lifestyle).

Don't want to get into a gay marriage debate though... Just an example.

[annamaureen]

So true... it seems like in today's society, tolerance is used to mean "acceptance and support" instead of "respectful but neutral," which is how I view tolerance. I'm perfectly tolerant of other people's choices and lifestyles, but that doesn't mean I have to validate them.

[talisyn]

Maxel, I think the tolerance push in schools is to combat bullying, not to open the minds of children so far their brains fall out. Sometimes we look at things too much from an adult perspective.

[Traveler]

Tolerance is an interesting concept to try to understand – If we are to be tolerant, how then would we deal with other’s intolerance?

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

Everywhere- in the classrooms, hallways, cafeteria...- were posters advocating tolerance and the acceptance of diversity.

I'm all for it. Give me a box to stand on, and listen as I shout:

"I'm a disciple of Jesus Christ, and I believe that peace and joy in this world is best obtained by bending my will to His! I'm teaching my two girls to dress modestly and remain celebate until marriage! (They also won't be dating until they're 16.) We believe the definition of marriage is that one guy marries a girl, and anything else is not to be called a marriage! I'm teaching them that the guy should earn the living and the girl should raise the kids! Now who wants to come shower me with acceptance of my diversity? Form a line now, no pushing or shoving!"

[A hearty debate then ensues, on why the posters hanging everywhere are damnable lies.]

LM

(For extra credit, maybe I could also issue forth a zinger like this one.)

Edited August 25, 2009 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Maxel]

Maxel, I think the tolerance push in schools is to combat bullying, not to open the minds of children so far their brains fall out. Sometimes we look at things too much from an adult perspective.

Possibly. However, we'd be foolish to discount the rampant attack on traditional values that is aimed at the public education system- particularly in the realm of homosexuality.

Also, it's important to note that a large part of the problem I see is there isn't enough being taught about other virtues- tolerance seems to have taken over as the king of all virtues. It seems that nowadays a 'good' man is a man who is tolerant and accepting of others' views- not a man with integrity nor a man who maintains mastery over his desires (especially sexual desires). Tolerance is being enthroned as the master virtue, which it is not.

[Maxel]

I'm all for it. Give me a box to stand on, and listen as I shout:

"I'm a disciple of Jesus Christ, and I believe that peace and joy in this world is best obtained by bending my will to His! I'm teaching my two girls to dress modestly and remain celebate until marriage! (They also won't be dating until they're 16.) We believe the definition of marriage is that one guy marries a girl, and anything else is not to be called a marriage! I'm teaching them that the guy should earn the living and the girl should raise the kids! Now who wants to come shower me with acceptance of my diversity? Form a line now, no pushing or shoving!"

[A hearty debate then ensues, on why the posters hanging everywhere are damnable lies.]

Oh man... This is too funny an idea. It would be interesting to hear how many people immediately call you 'intolerant' because you believe in traditional values, although you've said nothing about how you deal with others' diversities.

(For extra credit, maybe I could also issue forth a zinger like this one.)

THAT was a heartening read. The importance of being the example cannot be overlooked.

[Gatorman]

Tolerance falls in line with the other major teachings of the schools and government. That there is nothing 'wrong'. Everything is acceptable.

[Misshalfway]

I am currently reading a biography of Ben Franklin. I like other stories from early American time periods as well. I think I miss the values of the old days. Perhaps they did get a little over concerned at certain things, but I miss the focus on character and honesty and right and wrong. I think we have lost our reverence for much of those old perspectives......something that I htink we have to fight for today. Fight to learn.....and fight to preserve.

[Justice]

/approved

This could be an example of how we all believe some things the same. It's uncanny how similar everyone feels about this topic, even with it being a very difficult one.

[Moksha]

I think tolerance is great. The problem is that many people confuse tolerance( a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own ) with acceptance ( to give admittance or approval to

to endure without protest or reaction,).

and they are to different things. I find that when most people ask for tolerance they actually want acceptance.

So when the rest of the world says they are tolerant of Mormons, we need to still think of the limitations of this tolerance, such as not "enduring it without protest or reaction", eh?

:)