Age of Accountability

[Moksha]

On another thread PrisonChaplain said the quote below. It clicked with me that this in itself is a worthy topic

I join many of my Protestant family in ascribing to the Age of Accountability--a teaching that before a child is old enough to discern right and wrong, if such a one dies, s/he will be ushered into the presence of the LORD.

As far as I know, LDS teachings agree with this presumed innocence of being unable to discern right from wrong and we set this age from birth till 8 years of age.

I have wondered though about the discrepancy between knowing something and the ability to follow through with it. Various States set the age of getting a drivers license between 15-18 years of age. This group of young adults between the ages of 15-23 have traffic citations much higher than older groups of drivers. There is a discrepancy between being old enough to drive and driving responsibly as a whole.

At age 18, they have the right to join the armed forces, vote, and are assumed to be adult in sexual matters as well.

At age 21, they can purchase alcoholic beverages and are assumed to be adult in all aspects of their lives. Even for the rights of 18 year olds and 21 year olds, there seems to me to be a discrepancy between having these rights and using them responsibly.

So why eight years old? The court system would never recognized the ability of an eight year old to make adult decisions.

Your thoughts on this matter?

:)

[prisonchaplain]

Eight is an age when many churches believe most children are able to understand the basics of the gospel, and to be baptized. I've heard of children younger, and many wait until a bit older. Interestingly, for Jews it's 13 when they are considered responsible for their own decisions. We don't set 8 as the hard and fast age, but by then, it does seem that most understand right and wrong well enough that they can confess their sins to God.

[Justice]

/Agree with PC

[LDSVALLEY]

With the Church of Latter-day Saints we do say the age is eight but that is not the complete end and beginning. You can not get baptized younger then eight but might not be able to at eight either. A Bishop must interview and find the child able to understand what the commitment means. Realizing of course that at eight understanding is pretty much limited to the short term and abstract. I have known cases where a child was not sufficient in understanding and had to wait some time.

A person's ability to understand also plays a part. Someone with insufficent mental capacity is considered innocent and thus already saved. While a baptism can happen for such a person it is simply for show and has no real meaning.

Two of our three children were baptized without having a full testimony of their own but developed it over time. But they had the basic understanding of right and wrong and the covenants they were making. The third had it all from the get go.

Even Adults coming into the church often don't have a full understanding of what it all means. But have the basics to begin the journey.

[Hemidakota]

What ever the Lord says is the age of accountability; this is the age that a child will be accountable to sin. At this point, any state, nation, or even the world, it really doesn't matter what is given by any field of academic in proving otherwise.

Alonzo L. Gaskill in his book, ‘The Lost Language of Symbolism’, spoke about symbol of numbers seen in the scriptures. Surprising is the amount of this number is seen and symbol meaning behind it [i add some footnotes for those who wish to study the symbol itself] -

The number eight is associated with the concepts of resurrection,125 new beginnings,126 rebirth,127 and baptism.128 Because of its association with resurrection, it is sometimes also seen as the number of Christ. Additionally, some commentators call the number eight the sign of superabundance.129

The Apostle Paul associated baptism with the symbol of resurrection rather than cleansing. He stated:

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. (Romans 6:3–5.)

In reference to this passage, one numerologist wrote, "Christ rose from the dead on 'the first day of the week,' that was of necessity the eighth day."130 Since, for all of those born in the covenant, baptism is to be performed at the age of eight (see D&C 68:27), the connection between the symbols of baptism, resurrection, Christ, and the number eight are natural and appropriate. Indeed, the reason the number eight is utilized as a symbol for Christ, resurrection, baptism, new beginnings, and so on is that they are all intricately related ideas.

Continuing this theme, it is noteworthy that only eight humans survived the deluge of Noah's day. In 1 Peter 3:18–21 we read:

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

A number of commentaries note that Peter's declaration is clearly a symbolic reference to the saving powers of baptism.131 Just as Noah and his family were "saved by water," those who accept Christ and his revealed ordinances—including baptism—are also "saved by water." Reference is made in the passage to the symbolic number eight, baptism, Christ, and, by default, a new order of things—as Noah and his family witnessed the destruction of all and began anew the human family.

According to the law of Moses, circumcision was to be performed on the eighth day (see Genesis 17:12). As a foreshadowing of the ordinance of baptism, that time frame served as a reminder to Israel that their children were not accountable until their eighth year (see JST, Genesis 17:4–20).

Aaron and his sons were consecrated on the eighth day, after waiting "at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation day and night seven days" (Leviticus 8:35; 9:1). The number eight here is likely a symbol, both of their new beginning as consecrated priests and also of their typification of Christ, whose number is eight.132 Indeed, E. W. Bullinger noted, "Eight is the dominical number, for everywhere it has to do with the Lord. It is the number of His name, Jesus," which totals 888 in Greek gematria.133 He indicates that "other Dominical Names of Jesus are also marked by gematria and stamped with the number eight as a factor."134

Regarding eight as a number for both Christ and resurrection, one commentator offers an interesting insight: In the Bible "the risen Christ was seen by 512 persons. And 512 is the cube of 8 (83). The number of the disciples gathered in the upper room (Acts i. 15) was 120 (8 x 15)."135

One pioneer LDS typologist, Lenet Hadley Read, pointed out that "the beginning of God's new kingdom of glory" will be the "eighth age" and at the conclusion of the Resurrection.136 She added, "The age of Latter-day Saint baptism . . . fits perfectly into [the] pattern: Circumcision, eighth day; baptism, eighth year; Christ's resurrection, eighth day; the beginning of God's new kingdom of glory, eighth age. Each time period signifies becoming a member of God's covenanted people and (for those faithful to the covenant) entrance into God's glory."137

The number eight may have symbolic value in the Book of Mormon as well. For example, the Jaredites prepared eight barges so that they could cross the waters and obtain the promised land (see Ether 3:1). This crossing has been compared by one LDS author to the ordinance of baptism as a step on the voyage to the celestial promised land.138 In 1 Nephi we read that Nephi and his family spent eight years in the wilderness before embarking on their journey to the new land (see 1 Nephi 17:4). Eight here seems symbolic of the concept of new beginnings. We read further that Alma and his new converts traveled "eight days' journey into the wilderness" to escape King Noah and his men (Mosiah 23:3). Not coincidentally, one of the early symbols of their newfound faith was their participation in the ordinance of baptism, after which they began new lives in Christ (see Mosiah 18).

Note Reference:

125. See Cooper, Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols, 118; Johnston, Numbers in the Bible, 75; Julien, Mammoth Dictionary of Symbols, 135; Bullinger, Number in Scripture, 200; and Davis, Biblical Numerology, 122.

126. See Johnston, Numbers in the Bible, 75; Cirlot, Dictionary of Symbols, 233; Julien, Mammoth Dictionary of Symbols, 135; and Bullinger, Number in Scripture, 196, 200.

127. See Julien, Mammoth Dictionary of Symbols, 135.

128. See Cirlot, Dictionary of Symbols, 233; and McConkie and Parry, Guide to Scriptural Symbols, 46. "According to Clement of Alexandria, Christ placed those whom he gave a second life under the sign of 8" (Julien, Mammoth Dictionary of Symbols, 135).

129. "In Hebrew the number eight is Sh'moneh, from the root Shah'meyn, 'to make fat,' 'cover with fat,' 'to super-abound.' . . . Eight denotes that which is superabundant or satiating" (Bullinger, Number in Scripture, 196). See Draper, Opening the Seven Seals, 121; and Smith, Book of Revelation, 144.

130. Bullinger, Number in Scripture, 200.

131. See Elliott, 1 Peter, 673; and Reicke, Epistles of James, Peter and Jude, 113–14.

132. Of the dimensions of the tabernacles in which they would serve, Bullinger noted: "Eight is the first cubic number, the cube of two, 2 x 2 x 2. . . . The significance of the cube is seen in the fact that the 'Holy of Holies,' both in the Tabernacle and in the Temple, were cubes. In the Tabernacle it was a cube of 10 cubits. In the Temple it was a cube of 20 cubits. In Rev. xx the New Jerusalem is to be a cube of 12,000 furlongs" (Number in Scripture, 201).

133. See ibid., 203. "The Sibylline Oracles 1:342–44 give the number of the name of the Savior in Greek as 888 (I=10, A=8, S=200, O=70, Y=400, S=200)" (Draper, Opening the Seven Seals, 273 note 29). "In the Hebrew alphabet this is the sacred number of Jesus" (Cooper, Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols, 120).

134. Bullinger, Number in Scripture, 204. Bullinger points out that, if spelled out in Greek gematria, "Christ" totals 1,480 (8 x 185); "Lord" totals 800 (8 x 100); "Our Lord" totals 1,768 (8 x 221); "Savior" totals 1,408 (82 x 32); "Emmanuel" totals 25,600 (83 x 50); "Messiah" totals 656 (8 x 82); "Son" totals 880 (8 x 110). Additionally, in gematria "the names of the Lord's people are multiples of eight" in most cases (see ibid., 203, 204, 205–7).

135. Ibid., 233.

136. Read, Unveiling Biblical Prophecy, 24–25.

137. Ibid., 25.

138. See Valletta, "Jared and His Brother," 304, 318

[TheJoker]

I don't know about anyone else. But when i was 8 i still believed in Santa.

When we are eight years old we believe what we are told. We don't know anything for sure.

[will227457]

I agree with The Joker

I was baptized at 8 and over time I came to know the truthfulness of the gospel, but lets be honest at 8 I did it because it was expected of me

When my daughter turns 8 I will have to make a decision with my wife as to what the right move will be of course I want her to be baptized but I also need her to fully understand the commitment, so I guess if it takes till she is 10 to get it I'll wait...

[hordak]

I'm with thejoker and wil227457.

While at 8 you may know the difference between right and wrong but i think making an eternal commitment is a little out of your league for most at that age.

Plus since baptism is a washing away of sins why the rush?

You have been capable of sinning for 2 weeks, and get all sorts of people saying. "When are you going to get baptized, don't you want to be sinless?"

Should have waited til 40:D

[beefche]

I was about 8 when I gained a testimony of the church--because of my dad's objections, I had to wait 10 years for baptism. I don't think my testimony at 18 was that much different at 8--I had more knowledge, but that fire of testimony seemed the same. It wasn't until after baptism that the testimony fire began to burn as an inferno.

Remember baptism is not only about remission of sins, but it is also a committment to put off the "old" man and begin anew. I think children are capable of deciding to live their lives in a certain manner and understand what it means to promise something. Baptism is a gate--a committment to live as God wants us to live. I think children can make that distinction while still believing in Santa.

[TheJoker]

I was about 8 when I gained a testimony of the church--because of my dad's objections, I had to wait 10 years for baptism. I don't think my testimony at 18 was that much different at 8--I had more knowledge, but that fire of testimony seemed the same. It wasn't until after baptism that the testimony fire began to burn as an inferno.

Remember baptism is not only about remission of sins, but it is also a committment to put off the "old" man and begin anew. I think children are capable of deciding to live their lives in a certain manner and understand what it means to promise something. Baptism is a gate--a committment to live as God wants us to live. I think children can make that distinction while still believing in Santa.

Yes I do see your point but you gained a testimony because of your father.

Now you have decided that it is your own testimony. I am guessing now if your father left the church you would still go.

That's the difference really. Plus lets face it. Not many ways for an eight year old to sin.

[TheJoker]

Should have waited til 40:D

When i used to go church i was told that you are sort of at a disadvantage as a member. Being as your supposed to be accountable for what you know you should be doing.

[pam]

Interesting...I've never considered being a member a disadvantage. I look at it as more of an advantage. I know the plan of salvation. I know what is expected of me. I know what it takes to make it to the celestial kingdom. Now it's up to me to do the rest.

Ignorance is not always bliss.

[TheJoker]

Interesting...I've never considered being a member a disadvantage. I look at it as more of an advantage. I know the plan of salvation. I know what is expected of me. I know what it takes to make it to the celestial kingdom. Now it's up to me to do the rest.

Ignorance is not always bliss.

If that is true you are part of the less than 1% that is that lucky.

Personally i don't go anymore.

One problem i had is this:

Whether you accept the gospel or not. Is about where you are born and your life experiences. Because where we are born and what we experience. Makes us the people we are today.

[pam]

I seriously doubt that I fall into a 1% category that think the same thing. So does that mean you believe that 99% of members wish they didn't have that faith or knowledge? That they would rather be ignorant of the plan of salvation?

[beefche]

Yes I do see your point but you gained a testimony because of your father.

Now you have decided that it is your own testimony. I am guessing now if your father left the church you would still go.

That's the difference really. Plus lets face it. Not many ways for an eight year old to sin.

Joker, you misunderstand my post. My father has never been a member of the church and has never believed in it. He was anti-Mormon for quite a few years. The only way I learned about it was through the missionaries who came by during the day when dad wasn't there.

My testimony was my own. It was not my mom's or the missionaries or anyone. I distinctly remember when I realized the BoM was true--and it was independent of anyone.

That isn't to say that kids who grow up in the church don't rely on mom/dad's testimony. I'm sure they do. But having never attended church until I was 18, I didn't have anyone's testimony to rely on.

[beefche]

If that is true you are part of the less than 1% that is that lucky.

Personally i don't go anymore.

One problem i had is this:

Whether you accept the gospel or not. Is about where you are born and your life experiences. Because where we are born and what we experience. Makes us the people we are today.

I don't understand your post. What are you referring to when you say that less than 1% is lucky?

[hordak]

When i used to go church i was told that you are sort of at a disadvantage as a member. Being as your supposed to be accountable for what you know you should be doing.

Really? I was taught it was a great blessing being born lds and that the "best spirits" were born into the covenant (not sure if that is official doctrine could have been an overzealous teachers opinion) but came to the conclusion that it would be a disadvantage for the reason you cite.

[TheAngelPalmoni]

Ya i mean it is not like we are giving 8 year old kids the Mel Priesthood or the sealing power. We are just giving them the Spirit of Christ or the Gift of the Holy Ghost. Entering in at the gate.

edit: Deleted link

Sorry, we can't find "www.angelapalmoni.com". We suggest that you check the spelling of the web address or search above.

Angel Palmoni

Edited October 9, 2009 by pam

[TheAngelPalmoni]

Really? I was taught it was a great blessing being born lds and that the "best spirits" were born into the covenant (not sure if that is official doctrine could have been an overzealous teachers opinion) but came to the conclusion that it would be a disadvantage for the reason you cite.

Boo to that Idea!!

[Justice]

Whether you accept the gospel or not. Is about where you are born and your life experiences. Because where we are born and what we experience. Makes us the people we are today.

One day you will see how wrong you are.

People from all walks of life, from all nationalities and races, from all ages of the world past, have accepted Christ.

It's true that your life experiences may make it easier or harder, but do not make the mistake of believing the choice is not yours to make.

[Misshalfway]

I guess I always thought of the gift of the Holy Ghost as a serious advantage. I mean, why not equip our kids with heavenly guidance as soon as possible? OR I spose we could let the spiritual wolves have at them until their "ready" for protection.

[john doe]

I would think that by age 8 most normal children who have been taught correctly by their parents have a pretty good idea of the basics of right and wrong. Do they know everything? Of course not, but it's a start, and as they gain more knowledge they will be able to apply those things to their lives.

To those who think ignorance to the gospel is the way to go, would you say the same applies to education? Knowledge is power, and the more knowledge you have the more power you have to control your outcome.

[LDSVALLEY]

Originally Posted by TheJoker View Post

Whether you accept the gospel or not. Is about where you are born and your life experiences. Because where we are born and what we experience. Makes us the people we are today.

When I first joined the church there was a member who was the nicest guy you ever would meet. He always had treats for kids, warm smiles and handshakes for adults. In the 5 years in that ward I never heard or saw him get angry. He his wife and daughter were a very close united family. I thought if only I could be that good.

He gave his testimony about the church one day. He was sitting in jail, again, for spousal and substance abuse , his wife had run off with someone else and gotten pregnant. He was in his words violent and always angry and would try any substance. As he said he was living as he had been raised and so it wasn't his fault. Somehow he found the gospel in jail. He realized while his past could influence his life he had the agency to decide how he would live his life. He could continue to follow what his experience was or turn to God for help and create his future experience. That he could make his life in the image he choose. IN a very short time he completly transformed from being a difficult prisoner to a model one. He began writing to his wife and trying to make amends.

The long and short of it his wife took the gospel into her life as well, realized things she needed to change. He accepted the child completely as his own. He works as a volunteer with people dealing with substance abuse. Kids and members love him and his wife to death.

He decided to allow Heavenly Father to help him to become what he decided he wanted. He hates the "my situation is because of what I went through, or its not my fault because of how I was raised."

It has an effect no question but those of the best upbringing and situation can turn out the worst and the ones with the worst upbringing and situations can turn out the best.

Because Heavenly Father gave us the agency to choose.

And provides us a way to have the strength to do so.

It just takes lots of work, time, effort and faith.

[TheJoker]

Really? I was taught it was a great blessing being born lds and that the "best spirits" were born into the covenant (not sure if that is official doctrine could have been an overzealous teachers opinion) but came to the conclusion that it would be a disadvantage for the reason you cite.

I was told by one of my leaders that the reason lds members are born into it is because they are the ones who need to prove themselves.

Anyone have a source on this?

[pam]

I've never heard that the best spirits were born under the covenant or were the ones that needed to prove themselves.

I, too, would like to see any sources for this.