Obstacles to our faith

[Still_Small_Voice]

It would have been better for my testimony if Joseph Smith had been portrayed to me as a man with weaknesses that were ironed out by the atonement, but I was not shown that. I was shown that he was perfect.

Does that make sense?

It is good that you found out more about Joseph Smith by study. It is a very common story told over and over in the church that Joseph had the golden plates and other sacred items taken from him for a season because he sought to do things his own way rather than listening to the counsel of the LORD. We learn from Joseph's sin that when you ask God and He tells you "No" to listen and not ask again and again.

[bytor2112]

The history of the church is wonderful.....particularly Joseph Smith's history. Truly he wasn't perfect.....but he was amazing. I would strongly encourage anyone to read Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman. I think the church portrays Joseph in the light that the Lord would be pleased with and they are accurate in doing so.

[bytor2112]

My greatest obstacle....myself.

[bytor2112]

Our own church history and the way it is dealt with today by our leaders.

It seems to be more important to have many short faithpromoting pieces of history in our lesson manuals than to face the whole history with some of its teachings and practices that may be embarassing.

There is no point to pretend some things never happend. They did. So why not be honest about it?

Respectfully......How many members have fragile testimony's? A lot, right? They struggle with understanding simple doctrine or why they can't drink coffee or wine...."Jesus drank wine". So, the church should say, " Okay, we have thrown alot at you.....and asked you to accept alot (and hopefully they have prayed and received a Spiritual witness and are feeling pretty good about things like the First Vision and BOM....but just so you know....Joseph had 38 wives and yada yada yada.

The Gospel gets lost in the fascination or obsession over trying to understand 19th century church history while peering through 21st century lenses. What is most important? Obviously....that Christ is returning soon and Heavenly Father has prepared away for HIS children to return home. Focus on the here and now and the mission....the real mission of why you are here. Pray and listen to the Still Small Voice.

[pam]

My greatest obstacle....myself.

You stole my answer.

[bytor2112]

You stole my answer.

If this was Family Feud....probably number one answer.

[Misshalfway]

I don't disagree with you. Living the principles of the Gospel will show you whether or not the principle is a true principle. I have strived to live the gospel faithfully my whole life. I have strived to always strengthen what I was taught were the five points of a testimony - belief in God, belief in His Son, belief that Joseph Smith was/is a prophet, belief in the Book of Mormon, testimony that the church is true. I have been taught to follow the teachings and example of Christ.

Here is where I have personally run into problems. (I am not making generalizations. I am speaking about my own personal experience.) The image that my primary teachers, parents and leaders put forward was useful for building my faith. I grew up hearing stories in primary about how noble Joseph was even as a child - so noble that when he had surgery on his leg he would not drink any alcohol. He was so noble that he saw God and Christ and was called to be a prophet.

I was not shown a weak man. I was always shown a very strong, and noble man. I was always shown a man that was nearly perfect even from his youth. I can go back and read the Bible and see the weakness of those prophets, but I was NEVER shown the weakness of Joseph Smith. So yeah I was shocked and surprised when I started to learn things about church history that did not show him as being perfect. I felt betrayed and lied to. THIS is what I mean when the history of the church starts to surface and it shocks you.

It would have been better for my testimony if Joseph Smith had been portrayed to me as a man with weaknesses that were ironed out by the atonement, but I was not shown that. I was shown that he was perfect.

Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense! I remember when I found out Moses killed a man in a middle of the night wrestling match outside Egypt. Or when I found out Noah might have been drunk occasionally. I also remember when I realized my own dear father wasn't perfect and that he struggled with earth life too.

I am comforted by the scriptures. Moses knew he wasn't a perfect man.

Exodus 4: 10 "And Moses said unto the Lord, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speach and of slow tougue."

Enoch felt the same way. Moses 6:31 "...Why have I found favor in thy sight, and am but a lad, and all the people hate me...."

But the Lord says, Exodus 4: 11 "Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord? Now therefore go, aand I will be with thy mouth and teach thee what thou shalt say."

King Benjamin is another example. You think he is pretty amazing? I do. Yet he reminds his people in Mosiah 2:10-11, "I have not commanded you to come up hither that ye should fear me or that ye should think that I am myself am more than a mortal man. But I am like yourselves, subject to all manner of infirmities in body and mind...."

Remember JSmith's words too. (From the Joseph Smith manual Ch. 45) "I went over to the store (Nauvoo), where a number of brethren and sisters were assembled, who had arrived this morning.......I told them I was but a man, and they must not expect me to be perfect; if they expected perfection from me, I should expect it from them;; but if they woud bear with my infirmaties and infirmities of the brethren, I would likewise bear with their affirmities."

When we exalt people above what they really are, then that is our mistake. We do it with sports figures and movie stars and then when the tabloids come out our image is shattered.

Frankly I am not sure a "perfect" prophet is any more valueable or powerful than a man that is empowered by God. I feel the beauty of being perfected IN Christ is the same for all of us who have committed to this latter day work. So....we know we are all human and we remember that when we work with bishops and high counselmen and area authorities and prophets and we sustain each other because we know Jesus is at the helm of it all.

Sulli.....I am not so concerned that your idealistic view of Joseph may have been shattered. I suspect if Joseph were here with you, he'd be happy for it as he helped you learn what being called as a prophet really means.

And you know......maybe you are just ready for your testimony to mature. Perhaps the shattering of the pretty picture is a gift. I mean wouldn't you rather be a person of deep sound wisdom rather than an idealistic obedient child?

Edited December 1, 2009 by Misshalfway

[TruthSeeker]

I remember when I first came across some incriminating church history....I left the church for 3 years. My life went from pretty ordered and good, to chaotic and awful. Upon my return, I understood the value of Gospel principles. Still to this day, I struggle with things early church leaders said and did...however, I have to constantly remind myself of two things...

1) How do I know what REALLY happened? (Any source has an agenda)

2) No man/woman is perfect.

I often think about how I would feel if I was called to be the prophet one day. People would probably come out from my past and detail the wrong choices I had made...and I would then think about how no words could explain my change of heart and true intentions. I imagine much was the same with Joseph and Brigham. They said and did some crazy things. They, however, were men. If aything, I have learned to take them as prime examples of how the atonement can work.

Even though I understand this, I still struggle with my testimony at times. Luckily, I have had 2 or 3 spiritual experiences that will never forget and not ever be able to deny, and I latch on to these. I also see how doing my best in the church has brought me many blessings to my life.

Will I ever understand why one of Joseph's wives was 14 years old? Can I justify this? Not at all. However, it is not my place to.

[Still_Small_Voice]

One thing I find interesting is there is no evidence that Joseph Smith had physical intimacy with any woman other than Emma his first wife. I wonder if Joseph's plural marriages to other women were just so they could have a husband to go with to exaltation.

[Moksha]

I honestly don't think anyone is "bashing" the church. Why this reaction? Our history is sometimes hard to understand. It takes a minute to process especially for those who never knew they had to look further. Bringing this concern out in frank terms, IMHO, is not bashing.

I recently read how an LDS fellow by the name of Scott Lloyd, on one of those fierce message boards, described how some of us are what he termed, "Folk Mormons", who have not bothered to search out genuine history beyond legend. The other side to this coin was what he termed "Orthodox Mormons" (the term Educated Mormons would be a better fit) that have searched out information beyond the Sunday School lessons.

Frank understanding as you say is vitally important.

[Guest mormonmusic]

... I still struggle with my testimony at times. Luckily, I have had 2 or 3 spiritual experiences that will never forget and not ever be able to deny, and I latch on to these. I also see how doing my best in the church has brought me many blessings to my life.

Will I ever understand why one of Joseph's wives was 14 years old? Can I justify this? Not at all. However, it is not my place to.

This, for me, says it all. As the recent "appeal to the scriptures" on the topic of Godhead/Trinity has confirmed to me -- if we haven't personally witnessed something we don't have a perfect knowledge. We have to rely on something else to guide us to the truth.

However, the Spirit is definitely real, and that's the ultimate source of truth for me. It's happened so many times when I've had that pleasant feeling my chest, or the more enveloping swell of spiritual emotion, or rarer, but even more powerful, that feeling of being overcome with the Spirit to the point I feel energy surround my whole body to the point I can't move -- after asking a question in a prayer. Or the repetition of words over and over again in my mind that prevent me from thinking anything else, coupled with an outpouring of the Spirit.

These are the things that I rely on to convince me of what is true, and what isn't. And if I've ever had testimony issues, it's because I've forgotten these experiences, or haven't been living my life spiritually enough to have more of them.

That's why I think keeping a personal journal is critical -- it's a voice from the past, reminding you of your connections with truth in the past, that help you get past unsettling or faith-detracting information -- like Joseph's 14 year-old wife.

Edited December 4, 2009 by mormonmusic

[Traveler]

What is the biggest obstacle to your faith?

Mine is my own lack of consistency in studying the Word and applying it. I know that is where truth lies, and still I neglect it.

It is my opinion that the only obstacles to our faith – which is the faith to do all things that G-d has commanded – are those things we create by lack of faith in keeping the commandments to justify our error. When we teach that it is impossible to keep G-d’s commandments or that it is not really necessary to do so our faith in G-d is overcome such that it is impossible for us to abide with G-d and his spirit.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

............

Will I ever understand why one of Joseph's wives was 14 years old? Can I justify this? Not at all. However, it is not my place to.

What we know of Mary the mother of Jesus - it was likely that she was younger than 14 when she gave birth. If Joseph can be condemned - how is it that G-d is not as guilty. Is there a double standard??

The Traveler

[annamaureen]

Laziness. I also tend to find church meetings boring.

[Justice]

What we know of Mary the mother of Jesus - it was likely that she was younger than 14 when she gave birth. If Joseph can be condemned - how is it that G-d is not as guilty. Is there a double standard??

The Traveler

Personally, I'm thankful He did.

God has always done, or caused to be done, things that may not be right in one instance, in order to bring about the greatest good for the most people.

I do not question or doubt His motives, nor will I volunteer to act as prosecution at His trial.

[Justice]

You might think my last comment is from someone who is brainless and refuses to think for himself.

On the contrary, I have developed that attitude over many years of brainless and thoughtless doings. I have questioned God's motives in the past.

I have since learned God is beyond reproach. He loves, and His actions are motivated by love. He does not harm others or act in any way unbecoming of perfection, nor does He seek to advance His personal cause.

Moses 1:

39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

I believe this scripture, and therefore do not doubt that all that He does is for the benefit of man. He has ALWAYS proven it to be true in my life.

[rayhale]

If you belong to a religion and aren't interested in its history, then you don't care too much about it. I'm sorry, but that's the hard truth. I found out about the major controversial events in the Church's history when I was 13-14, from anti-Mormon websites. The information is there, available to anyone who will look for it- the anti-Mormons have seen to that, as have the real historians (both Mormon and non-Mormon).

Looking at anti sources is not all that good since you don’t know what is written is true or not. Read ‘The truth about the God makers’ by Gilbert Schariffs to see what I mean.

[rayhale]

My stumbling blocks:

Reading the Old Testament in a LDS doctrine framework.

The HUGE time gap between what the Bible says things happened, and what scientific evidence says things happened.

Church history *

History of Christianity itself.

The silence of Christianity when it became public that the Nazi regime held Jews in concentration camps. Including our own church.

* Yes there are instances in Church history that are unbelievable, several Apostles leaving the Church is one, yet read the Old Testament, there are instances of God telling His people to kill EVERYONE in the enemy camp, not just the people that fought, but, also the women, children, and even the animals.

One thing that I’ve noticed about Church history is that the interviews of some of the people involved are over 20 years after the fact. There HAS to be a gap between what the person remembers and what really happened. Read the Gospels in the New Testament to see how different each account is from each other.

[Moksha]

My stumbling blocks:

Reading the Old Testament in a LDS doctrine framework.

The HUGE time gap between what the Bible says things happened, and what scientific evidence says things happened.

Church history *

History of Christianity itself.

The silence of Christianity when it became public that the Nazi regime held Jews in concentration camps. Including our own church.

* Yes there are instances in Church history that are unbelievable, several Apostles leaving the Church is one, yet read the Old Testament, there are instances of God telling His people to kill EVERYONE in the enemy camp, not just the people that fought, but, also the women, children, and even the animals.

Still, belief needs to be based on something. Might as well take an idealized perception and branch outward from there with your eyes fully opened.

[ozzy]

I think that my own biggest stumbling block is my lack of patience. I try really hard to be patient with others over the small stuff, but eventually it just builds up and it is really depressing to just be filled to the brim with pent up anger over so much small stuff. Yep, I'd have to say that's it.

[anotherbrick]

For me, my biggest stumbling block in the Church, moreso than unsanitized Church History, would be individuals who respond in a very inconsiderate way towards members who are having problems with doubt or disbelief. This literally makes me feel physically ill.

I know people think the best way to deal with "fence-sitters" is to try to get them to pick a side, by saying "get with us, or get out". I find this to be very unChristlike, and unfortunately with the extremely judgmental mindset of a lot of Mormons, this problem is unlikely to be resolved any time soon.

[anotherbrick]

The information is there, but we aren't encouraged to look for it, or at least I was not. I was always taught that you don't look at those things. Not to mention the temple recommend interview question that asks something about whether or not you associate with anyone or any groups that are anti-mormon. I felt that if I ever looked at that information I would have to answer "yes" to that question and thus be found unworthy.

I admire you for your decision to avoid information that you feel would not be helpful in your journey as a Latter Day Saint. I ultimately feel this is a decision everybody has to make, for themselves.

I do, however, feel that for me, the only way I would answer yes to that question, would be if I sympathized, or associated with individuals whose sole intent would be to destroy faith, or the Church.

To me, there is a difference between thoroughly studying Mormon History, both good and bad aspects, and dwelling on the negative for the sole purpose of "attacking the Church".

One of my passions is attending Mormon studies conferences, reading books concerning the Church from an objective standpoint, and trying to see the "big picture" of everything. I find doing so, for me, is worthwhile, causes me to question less, and find a meaningful balance between intellectualism and spirituality. After all, I'm at a point where no piece of knowledge concerning religion in any way shape or form will cause me to desire to leave the Church, or attack it.

I understand some people may have a hard time comprehending how intellectualism could possibly have a place in a person's spiritual journey, if he or she desires to maintain their faith, but I have found a way to do so, and I believe it is a personal thing.

I do not say this to try to convince you to follow my example. Quite the contrary. I would actually advise you to keep doing what you are doing, and stay on the path that feels right to you. I just thought I needed to state that individuals currently struggling with issues concerning Church History do not need to despair, so long as they go about it in a way that does not bring others down.

[sulli]

I admire you for your decision to avoid information that you feel would not be helpful in your journey as a Latter Day Saint. I ultimately feel this is a decision everybody has to make, for themselves.

I do, however, feel that for me, the only way I would answer yes to that question, would be if I sympathized, or associated with individuals whose sole intent would be to destroy faith, or the Church.

To me, there is a difference between thoroughly studying Mormon History, both good and bad aspects, and dwelling on the negative for the sole purpose of "attacking the Church".

One of my passions is attending Mormon studies conferences, reading books concerning the Church from an objective standpoint, and trying to see the "big picture" of everything. I find doing so, for me, is worthwhile, causes me to question less, and find a meaningful balance between intellectualism and spirituality. After all, I'm at a point where no piece of knowledge concerning religion in any way shape or form will cause me to desire to leave the Church, or attack it.

I understand some people may have a hard time comprehending how intellectualism could possibly have a place in a person's spiritual journey, if he or she desires to maintain their faith, but I have found a way to do so, and I believe it is a personal thing.

I do not say this to try to convince you to follow my example. Quite the contrary. I would actually advise you to keep doing what you are doing, and stay on the path that feels right to you. I just thought I needed to state that individuals currently struggling with issues concerning Church History do not need to despair, so long as they go about it in a way that does not bring others down.

My wording in my post was not direct. I may have been told never to look at the history, but I have begun to look at the history. If you choose to look at the history and stick with FARMS and FAIR than you are sticking to more or less church approved means of studying the history. But I think that for many it would be hard to read even the FARMS and FAIR stuff and not begin to question. . . I am happy for you that you are at a point where nothing could make you question the church.

[Traveler]

I had already posted a thought – and now I think I will add to my thought.

When we think of faith – what is our faith? Well when we are as full of faith as we can possibly be – what do we call that?

When we are full of faith we are faithful!

When we are not faithful our faith has failed – or as some would say, we have stumbled.

The Traveler

[Guest]

My stumbling block is Nestea Iced-Tea.