I love this gospel, but it takes real Study

[Hill-Billy]

I really love this gospel; it is full of nooks and crannies of knowledge. The Hebrews or Old Israel if you please used the Palmagranit fruit as a way to show how we dig threw it to find little nuggets of sweet nectar. First we physically open it, then we taste it and what’s left is the seed to plant for others. What a wonderful thing to do for those coming after you. But it is only good if they chose to pick it and eat.

It is sad to know that many will refuse the Palmagranit because of who gives them the fruit. They get up set and instead of investigating the facts, truths or untruths will name call the person in some derogatory way; your not a prophet, your not in the church, your to old or what ever this childish mind can think off to place themselves back in there fuzzy comfort zone.

We have wings but refuse to use them, we have the power of prayer but refuse to use it or when we do, it doesn’t work as fast as we want it to work in telling us answers. Maybe we are not to get an answer before we do certain things; like repent, like turn over every rock and study it out first.

JS once said that to get anything into the head of the members of the church is like pounding a corn dodger into a hickory stump, or that they will shatter like potters clay at the sound of something contrary about their traditions. And so it is.

Why is it so hard to intellectually question, dig, and search after truth? Why are we so easily moved from search the truth or finding out the truth instead of just blindly accepting our traditions? We seem like those little rates called Lemmings who follow each other by the millions and run off a cliff, just so they can all be heading in the same direction?

We must be able to stand on our own bottom and not the arm of flesh. Let me tell you a story.

My daughter Celeste had just died and I buried her in the Cemetery across from UTC Redwood Rd. Driving home to Southern Utah and finally getting into bed after a long three day ordeal. I laid there thinking of my 18 year old daughter, Celeste. She came to me and sat on the bed and held me. We talked about here siblings and mother who was having a very hard time with her death. After about 20 min. She said that she had to return. I said, Celeste, before you go tell me what you regret doing here on earth most of all. I was thinking, not getting married, having kids, going to Disneyland etc. She said very seriously, DAD, NOT STUDING THE SCRIPTURES ENOUGH HAS REALLY HURT ME OVER HERE!

So I say to you, it is time to fix your BOW. Can we discuss things of the gospel without name calling and without tearing each other down? How about just discussing things, asking question and have an intellectual discussion, I don’t know if that is possible with this site, that is, from recent comments to my discussion ideas. I don’t know if there is any one mature enough to dig, search and not just condemn what they don’t understand.

[Misshalfway]

I love this gospel, but it takes real Study

I love this gospel BECAUSE it takes real study.

[Maya]

We have wings but refuse to use them

I love the way you said it! So true!

Like I an my friend were discussing tat so many Evangeilcal ahve starteed doing the help projects around... but we LDS anyway around where we live do nothing... we talk and talk about doing good and when it comes time to do it ... no one has time or they are too tired...

Maybe we are not to get an answer before we do certain things

Definately agree! Things just dont fall in our laps!

JS once said that to get anything into the head of the members of the church is like pounding a corn dodger into a hickory stump

I dont know about you... but he was right about me.... why cant I learn a bit easier?

We seem like those little rates called Lemmings who follow each other by the millions and run off a cliff

hahaha:p I know the game.. actually the ONLY game i liked.. I think their hair was so qute as it jumped up and down..... but to teh business... Yes it is easy to follow others. Also it is NOT easy to have a different opinion IF others put it down. Since we know so little adn we are in different steps on the stairs of knowledge no one should ever put anyones opinions down adn no one should ever come on too strong with their opinions. The wiser is the one who gives in. I believe we all learn little by løittle.... except those who deny to learn... they just throw stones at anything that moves. But also they may have a reason to the stonethrowing....

Thank you for sharing the story about your daughter. It was beautiful. I will tell it on so other kids can be prepared, and us grownups too. Maybe I should pick up the book more often! I just feel like JS said... nothing attaches between my ears more!

[Hill-Billy]

That was great and I will print that out.

[Hill-Billy]

Misshalfway: Why to you look so scary?

[pam]

Hey I thought you wanted this to be a nice civil discussion. And now you are saying someones looks are scary?

[john doe]

Are you directing this towards those who have asked you for references on claims you made? If so, you are off base. We ask for references here on things not well known in order to come to the correct explanation and interpretation of the facts. I welcome new and different views of things, but if a person comes on here asserting changes have been made to practices, then I expect them to back up that assertion with references to show the changes. Telling a questioner to scour the church archives to find the changes you are talking about is counterproductive to the discussion. As I said before, I won't waste my time on a snipe hunt. Calling people who ask where you came up with an idea unintelligent will not gain you friends either.

[bytor2112]

I love this Gospel because it's true.

[Palerider]

The Gospel of Jesus Christ- The Plan of Happiness....:)

[Hill-Billy]

I was looking at her picture and all. Not to be nasty mean like the others. She sounds different than the picture represents. I was confused. I didn't want to offend.

OK John Doe You asked for it and here it is.

Take a look at President Grants whole administration. Pres Grant is the 7th president and He is also referred to in chapter 7 of Isaiah as well, that is according to me.

During President Grants proclaimation on Priesthood Ordination was changed. It was found that we no longer needed to confer the Priesthood, just call the male to an office in the church. The Proclaimation is easy to find and it is also written in the Missinaries hand book at that time. It went along for many years and when he died Pres. McKay returned it to what we have now and what it was at the beginning with JS.

So, now we have a major problem, do you or does anyone in the church have priesthood? We all understand and teach that you can't give what you don't have. Common Sense. I think everyone should do their geneology on their own priesthood to find out if someone in their line was ordained during the Pres. Grant time. If so they may not have had the priesthood properly conferred on them. JT during a revelation from God prophesied that this would happen during the Seventh Pres. and it did.

Another note; Pres. Grant often said in his writtings that he would be glad when all those poligamist were arrested, tried and jailed. When Pres. GQC and about 20 or more men went to prison at the point of the MT. A health President Grant went to bed and was called home that night to answer for his administration, I believe.

You draw your own conclusions but that's the facts.

I WANT TO MAKE IT POSSITIVE STATEMENT THAT I DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO USE THIS INFORMATION TO LEAVE THE CHURCH. THE CHURCH IS THE ONLY CHURCH GOD REGOGNIZES. STAY STRONG. BUT KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN.

I hopeI don't get any hate mail on this... I am just the messenger not the guy who did it.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Hill-Billy
adding to John Doe

[Hill-Billy]

Are you an attorney with the John Doe thing.

Anyway let me tell you up front not that you will look it up or care. Take a look at the missionary had book and proclaimation of President Grants era. It's all plan history. I didn't think you would take the time to search.

[john doe]

to Mr. Jethro Bodeen

I didn't think you would come up with a reference for your claim either. But at least you were given ample opportunity to provide it. It may surprise you to know that most of the readers of this board don't have the time, money or resources to do extensive searches looking for snipes. We ask for references in order to have something of substance to discuss. If you refuse, then there is nothing to discuss, as your assertion is merely your opinion until you provide substance to back it up.

[Wingnut]

By the way, there's no such fruit as a Palmigranite. Perhaps you're referring to the pomegranate, of ancient Greek fame?

[john doe]

Huh, I missed that one. I thought he was talking about his palms of granite.

[Moksha]

to Mr. Jethro Bodeen

It is not true about that calling of names not hurting anyone. Sometimes they can be very hurtful.

[john doe]

and calling people who ask for references unintelligent is not hurtful? Besides, he calls himself hill billy, I merely mentioned the name of the most famous one. Jethro Bodeen is a hero to the hill billy movement. I've known a few who have looked upon him favorably.

Edited December 1, 2009 by john doe

[john doe]

It is not true about that calling of names not hurting anyone. Sometimes they can be very hurtful.

Cheap shot jokes about certain church-owned schools are hurtful too, but when did that ever stop you?

[MarginOfError]

I really love this gospel; it is full of nooks and crannies of knowledge. The Hebrews or Old Israel if you please used the Palmagranit fruit as a way to show how we dig threw it to find little nuggets of sweet nectar. First we physically open it, then we taste it and what’s left is the seed to plant for others. What a wonderful thing to do for those coming after you. But it is only good if they chose to pick it and eat.

It is sad to know that many will refuse the Palmagranit because of who gives them the fruit. They get up set and instead of investigating the facts, truths or untruths will name call the person in some derogatory way; your not a prophet, your not in the church, your to old or what ever this childish mind can think off to place themselves back in there fuzzy comfort zone.

I see we've stepped back from direct confrontation to passive aggressiveness. I can only guess that somebody somewhere assumed that those of lesser intellectual rigor would not have picked up on the change of tactics.

But I see your point. Never on this forum have we ever stepped outside of our comfort zones to discuss any uncomfortable ideas. I can't think of any time when we've discussed the possibility of racial biases affecting administrative decision; nor have we ever debated how homosexuals fit into the Church; it has never even been suggested that pro-choice political positions can be consistent with the gospel; we certainly would never dream of exploring the role of women in the priesthood; and may God strike us down if we ever debate the Bible as an allegorical or a literal text. We always stick firmly within our comfort zone of faith, repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Nothing beyond our fuzzy comfort zone at all.

Okay, enough of the passive aggressive. There is a large collection of members on this forum who make your idea of intellectual rigor looks like a paint-by-number kit.

We have wings but refuse to use them, we have the power of prayer but refuse to use it or when we do, it doesn’t work as fast as we want it to work in telling us answers. Maybe we are not to get an answer before we do certain things; like repent, like turn over every rock and study it out first.

Those are awfully accusatory words about people you know very little about. It seems to me that you're just whining because people disagreed with what you had to say and then you couldn't produce any decent references to back yourself up.

JS once said that to get anything into the head of the members of the church is like pounding a corn dodger into a hickory stump, or that they will shatter like potters clay at the sound of something contrary about their traditions. And so it is.

First of all, do you have a reference to back up that Smith ever actually said this.

Next, this statement condemns you more than it condemns any of us. We've all been quite clear that we are happy to adopt the teaching and policies of the current prophets. In other words, we don't care if a policy in contrary to our traditions, because we recognize that there are some traditions that just don't matter. You, on the other hand, have stated more than once that the Church should do everything exactly the way that it was done under Joseph Smith. It is you who are shattering at the sound of something contrary to your traditions. (Doesn't reality suck?)

Why is it so hard to intellectually question, dig, and search after truth? Why are we so easily moved from search the truth or finding out the truth instead of just blindly accepting our traditions? We seem like those little rates called Lemmings who follow each other by the millions and run off a cliff, just so they can all be heading in the same direction?

It isn't hard at all. Many of us are accustomed to doing so. One of the essential elements to intellectual research is transparency. That means citing references, providing evidence, and making it clear what statements are one's own and what statements are someone else's. But to claim, "if you read all the rare books I've read you'll have all the same conclusions that I have come to" is both ridiculous and false. There's no way for us to be able to intellectually judge the veracity of that claim without knowing which books you've read, what the context of those books are, and whether or not the books are reliable to begin with.

And for the record, rare books are usually rare because no one thought they were worth reproducing.

We must be able to stand on our own bottom and not the arm of flesh. Let me tell you a story.

And how is this supposed to mean that we're supposed to agree with what you say when you won't provide any evidence that you have the slightest idea what you're talking about.

My daughter Celeste had just died and I buried her in the Cemetery across from UTC Redwood Rd. Driving home to Southern Utah and finally getting into bed after a long three day ordeal. I laid there thinking of my 18 year old daughter, Celeste. She came to me and sat on the bed and held me. We talked about here siblings and mother who was having a very hard time with her death. After about 20 min. She said that she had to return. I said, Celeste, before you go tell me what you regret doing here on earth most of all. I was thinking, not getting married, having kids, going to Disneyland etc. She said very seriously, DAD, NOT STUDING THE SCRIPTURES ENOUGH HAS REALLY HURT ME OVER HERE!

Ironic that she would tell you that not studying the scriptures really hurt her and so you tell us that only studying the scriptures is hurting us. Which is it?

So I say to you, it is time to fix your BOW. Can we discuss things of the gospel without name calling and without tearing each other down? How about just discussing things, asking question and have an intellectual discussion, I don’t know if that is possible with this site, that is, from recent comments to my discussion ideas. I don’t know if there is any one mature enough to dig, search and not just condemn what they don’t understand.

It is actually quite impossible to have an intellectual discussion when you won't give references and citations. At that point, all we can do is have a speculative discussion. If you want to speculate, go right ahead, but don't expect anyone to take your speculations seriously.

[FunkyTown]

It is actually quite impossible to have an intellectual discussion when you won't give references and citations. At that point, all we can do is have a speculative discussion. If you want to speculate, go right ahead, but don't expect anyone to take your speculations seriously.

HEY! How did an argument over someone not providing source somehow not include me?

[Misshalfway]

Misshalfway: Why to you look so scary?

Well, that ain't what my momma told me. :D

[Hill-Billy]

Well, I thought someone would at least respond to my last reply about Heber J. Grant and what happened to our priesthood.

I often think that Gospel Doctrine classes should show Veggy Tail movies. Wish it was not so. We just don't want the meat anymore, our bow is truly broken.

Well, I have 8 Federal Cases to get ready for trial...

[Wingnut]

Well, I thought someone would at least respond to my last reply about Heber J. Grant and what happened to our priesthood.

Someone might have responded to it if you'd actually said said anything about it. No one is going to have a discussion with you when you refuse to discuss.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Wingnut

[Vort]

Well, I have 8 Federal Cases to get ready for trial...

MS Word has built-in spell check.

[/helpful_hint]

[pam]

Well, I have 8 Federal Cases to get ready for trial...

Is one of them this thread? Because I certainly see you making a federal case out of this.

[Wingnut]

I'm just wondering if that's supposed to impress us all.