Women more righteous than men

[hyohko]

Two reasons for few (if any) single men over 30 showing up at church:

1) Male mortality rates are higher. QED.

2) Being unmarried, LDS, and male is (either by perception or by actual action) so stigmatized that any poor man who finds himself in such a situation is automatically judged to be "gay"/"sinner"/"irresponsible"/"woman hater"/"porn addict" or (if divorced) "wife beater"/"child abuser," and subsequently treated as such. Instead of coming to church for the portion of God's love and healing to be received that Sunday, he meets critical and judging eyes, whispers in the hall, and a good deal of suspicion or even outright hostility. (You think I exaggerate?)

No wonder male retention is so difficult. We are so often stumbling blocks for our fellow brothers.

[Faded]

This topic AGAIN??

Um ... no comment. Nothing to see here folks!

[BenRaines]

Was the question Righteous or Self-Righteous? :)

Ben Raines

[RanMan]

Well, more can mean quality or quantity. There could be more women who are righteous and that does not mean that they have a greater spiritual capacity then men who are righteous. If that makes any sense.

:)

[Drac]

I have heard this many times but I do not know if it is true or not. In my ward we have lots of sisters who are either single, married to a non member, or their husbands are inactive. I can't think of one Brother who comes alone even though he is married.

As far as the women not having the Priesthood and being bitter commit always makes me laugh. I hold the Priesthood every night...my hubby!

I'm married and go by myself fairly often. If my wife decides she is not going that doesn't mean I won't.

Not that my wife is inactive, but it does seem there are more women with inactive husbands than men with inactive wives.

On the topic I'm not certain, but I tend to feel that on the whole women are more spiritual and willing to follow the Lord. Is that doctrine? No. That is just my opinion.

President Joseph F. Smith declared: “There are people fond of saying that women are the weaker vessels. I don’t believe it. Physically, they may be, but spiritually, morally, religiously and in faith what man can match a woman who is really convinced? Daniel had faith to sustain him in the lion’s den, but women have seen their sons torn limb from limb, and endured every torture satanic cruelty could invent because they believed. They are always more willing to make sacrifices, and are the peers of men in stability, Godliness, morality, and faith.” (Gospel Doctrine, 12th ed., Deseret Book Co., 1961, Chapter 19, sub-heading II, p. 352.)

I like how Pres. Hinckley infered of the position of women. "And so Eve became God’s final creation, the grand summation of all of the marvelous work that had gone before."

Edited February 6, 2010 by Drac

[Elphaba]

I feel like I'm being told this in church all the time, and it irritates me immensely. Given the discrimination issues in the USA today, I am also terrified to speak up about it, because white men aren't allowed to complain about poor treatment.

Of course they are. It's free speech. People might not want to listen, or they might not believe you, but that's another issue. Regardless, there is no penalty as far as the "USA" is concerned for complaining. If there were, I'd be in for life.

Whether or not Church officials would tolerate it is another question. Frankly, nothing in my experience as a Mormon ever led me to believe they wouldn't. But I am not a white man.

Elphaba

[Moksha]

2) Being unmarried, LDS, and male is (either by perception or by actual action) so stigmatized that any poor man who finds himself in such a situation is automatically judged to be "gay"/"sinner"/"irresponsible"/"woman hater"/"porn addict" or (if divorced) "wife beater"/"child abuser," and subsequently treated as such. Instead of coming to church for the portion of God's love and healing to be received that Sunday, he meets critical and judging eyes, whispers in the hall, and a good deal of suspicion or even outright hostility. (You think I exaggerate?)

Wouldn't this be an opportunity to rise above the unrighteousness of his fellow parishoners who are doing that? Walking in the valley of shadow while fearing no evil and all that stuff.

[hyohko]

Not everyone is so amazingly spiritual. One brother's testimony might be on the edge after so many years of singleness.

A hypothetical mental dialogue:

"If God loves me so much, and if he's supposed to provide a way to obey every commandment (Nephi 3:7), and if I'm a sinner for not being married yet, then what's wrong with me?"

Being subsequently dismissed, harassed, accused and suspected at every turn has pushed already spiritually weary brethren into inactivity. Already self-condemning because they haven't yet fulfilled the commandment to marry, they may (and do) begin to rationalize sin.

I fully acknowledge that they are responsible for their sins. HOWEVER, we are responsible for not being more Christlike in encouraging them into activity instead of condemning them because we perceive sins of omission.

Most of us frail humans need other humans to accompany us through the shadows of death - walking it alone is far harder. Normally, being married to a virtuous spouse takes care of that, but who will help these men, if not the rest of us?

[Saturnfulcrum]

I have only heard men say that women are the more righteous gender.

I wonder if they were trying to make me feel better?

[Moksha]

Most of us frail humans need other humans to accompany us through the shadows of death - walking it alone is far harder. Normally, being married to a virtuous spouse takes care of that, but who will help these men, if not the rest of us?

Your plea for a wakeup call is a good one.

[Bluejay]

Hi, Elphaba

Thanks for the pep talk!

...because white men aren't allowed to complain about poor treatment.

Of course they are. It's free speech. People might not want to listen, or they might not believe you, but that's another issue.

Literary license: please do not take literally.

-----

Regardless, there is no penalty as far as the "USA" is concerned for complaining. If there were, I'd be in for life.

I think the whole country would be in for life: complaining is what Americans do best!

-----

Whether or not Church officials would tolerate it is another question. Frankly, nothing in my experience as a Mormon ever led me to believe they wouldn't. But I am not a white man.

I've tried it before. Everybody is convinced that the injustices I face are insignificant, and I become instantly unwelcome in any conversation where I try to talk about them.

[Jamie123]

Already self-condemning because they haven't yet fulfilled the commandment to marry, they may (and do) begin to rationalize sin.

Many years ago I asked some missionaries how they reconciled any "commandment to marry" with 1 Corinthians 7. Their reaction was rather strange:

1. Disbelief that such a scripture existed (they had never heard of it).

2. When I showed it to them, they said they didn't know and didn't want to discuss it.

3. When I pressed them on the matter they did look into it, told me there was an explanation, but refused to tell me what it was until I "got a testimony".

Looking back, I don't really blame them. I don't think that was a very happy time for that particular branch and that particular set of missionaries, and I was the irritating investigator who refused to either get baptized or go away.

P.S. I have heard the theory that Paul was giving advice specific to the people of Corinth relevant to that specific time, and that he wasn't advising permanent disobedience to any general "commandment to marry". That may have been the "explanation" the sisters were referring to, but it seems a little too convenient. Still - it's a possibility.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Jamie123

[need4peace]

I believe that women and men are about as spiritual/righteous as they make up their minds and hearts to be. Neither is more than the other and I believe it is wishful thinking on behalf of some sisters to believe they are more righteous/spiritual than their brothers and of course - vice versa. :)

I am happy :)to be a woman in the church and know that women are loved so very much by our Father in Heaven and our Saviour Jesus Christ. However I am happy knowing that men are loved just as much and that we all as individuals have the opportunity to return to Him.

It concerns me to hear that some believe that women or men are more spiritual/righteous than the other - this is just another twist on the old adage 'the battle of the sexes'. I get tired of it in society and it saddens me that there are those in the church that get caught up in this boring battle. We have far more important things to be concerned with on our spiritual earthly journeys than deciding who is more righteous.

I guess there are those who are divisive between men and women that would love to focus incorrectly on quotes like this one by Brigham Young. "You educate a man; you educate a man. You educate a woman; you educate a generation." We as women can become prideful thinking we are for example 'more educated'.

President Spencer W. Kimball, in speaking of the roles of men and women, added some personal perspective: “Our roles and assignments differ. These are eternal differences—with women being given many tremendous responsibilities of motherhood and sisterhood and men being given the tremendous responsibilities of fatherhood and the priesthood—but the man is not without the woman nor the woman without the man in the Lord. …

“Remember, in the world before we came here, faithful women were given certain assignments while faithful men were foreordained to certain priesthood tasks. While we do not now remember the particulars, this does not alter the glorious reality of what we once agreed to. You are accountable for those things which long ago were expected of you just as are those we sustain as prophets and apostles! …

“This leaves much to be done by way of parallel personal development—for both men and women.” (Ensign, Nov. 1979, p. 102.)

It is as wrong to do things just to be seen of women as it is to do things to be seen of men. Great women and men are always more anxious to serve than to have dominion.” (Ensign, Nov. 1979, p. 104.)

"Nobody will ever win the battle of the sexes. There is too much fraternizing with the enemy."

— Henry Kissinger

[RachelleDrew]

Ugh, I hear various versions of that phrase constantly and it irks me to no end. It seems to me to be a bit of a put-down on the brothers within the church.

I wouldn't like it if the statement was reversed, and frankly many women would rage and war over a statement like that. So I don't think we aught to be saying it in church, but I suppose people have freedom of speech.

One of the biggest criticisms frequently directed at our church is that it's a sexist institution because some of our doctrine so thoroughly stresses divine roles. Because of this, I believe the LDS culture has a tendency to put women on a pedestal and put down men in a reactionary attempt to show that we don't belittle or look down upon women. However it tends to have the opposite effect, I feel that a lot of the members are somewhat sexist against the men.

The intent is good, but the outcome is negative. I hate to think that any of our men feel like they are destined to not be as "good" as the women are.

Can't we just judge a person individually based upon their actions and beliefs, and offer them the same opportunities and rights regardless of whether they sit or stand to pee? I mean, that was the original definition of women's rights anyway.....

[need4peace]

Ugh, I hear various versions of that phrase constantly and it irks me to no end. It seems to me to be a bit of a put-down on the brothers within the church.

I feel that a lot of the members are somewhat sexist against the men.

I hate to think that any of our men feel like they are destined to not be as "good" as the women are.

I agree with your comments RachelleDrew, it bothers me too when I hear my sisters in Relief Society put men down under the guise of a 'joke'. Sadly if men were to put women down, it's deemed as sexist or abuse but when women put men down, it's humour. Of course none of us should put anyone down. As soon as we do this the Spirit withdraws and Satan laughs at the so called 'joke'.

This happens a lot on TV & in advertising too, where men are portrayed as bumbling idiots, failures and mere objects with no rights and are subject to domineering women.

An example was an ad that aired here (downunder) recently. It started with the 'wife' in the ad storming out of the bathroom in a towel fuming because she had to have a cold shower. She really blasted her husband with put downs because the hot water didn't work properly. He was portrayed as an idiot for having the wrong type of pump. I was horrified.

I contacted the rural pump company who owned the ad and their response? "It was only in humour". I asked them if it had of been the 'husband' in the ad blasting the 'wife' would they still consider it humour? Of course not, it would have been considered abuse.

From a woman's point of view I do not like being portrayed in ads as a domineering know-all bully.

I suggested they look after the men in their lives and treat them with the respect they themselves desire. I pointed out that the company should remember that the majority of their customers were men from the land. I told them if my darling hubby and I ever needed to get a pump we would choose another brand.

What happened to the commandment to love thy neighbour as thyself? We must remember that our neighbours include men. Let's top this gender division in and out of the Church.

[annamaureen]

I couldn't agree more with you, need4peace. Ads and jokes making fun of men really make me angry.

[MeIRL]

Wouldn't this be an opportunity to rise above the unrighteousness of his fellow parishoners who are doing that? Walking in the valley of shadow while fearing no evil and all that stuff.

Is this also your response to the women who whine and moan about how badly the Church "patriarchy" treats them? Or is your condescension reserved solely for the men?

[ryanh]

Where's Vort now that one of his pet topics is being discussed???

Thank you need4peace for those thoughts.

I haven't seen the following manifestation of the idea as much in UT as I would see it in OR and CA. I see it some here, just not quite as obvious. I would note, that almost without fail, mothers would be praised over and over on Mother's Day. How indispensible they are, how wonderful they are (all true stuff), and generally give the impression that they simply could do no wrong.

However, come Father's Day, there was more than a fair share of: "you aren't doing enough", "you need to step it up", "cast off the natural man", etc. The impression given was often that they could do no right without great effort.

For many years, I dreaded attending church on Father's Day.

[FunkyTown]

Hi, Annamaureen.

I feel like I'm being told this in church all the time, and it irritates me immensely. Given the discrimination issues in the USA today, I am also terrified to speak up about it, because white men aren't allowed to complain about poor treatment.

I have been in conversations with women in the Church who could interpret anything I said as stemming from a deep feeling that I am superior to women. So, I don't talk a lot when these topics come up: but I have walked out of numerous Sunday School classes and Elder's Quorum meetings because it irritates me so much.

So, basically, I'm an emotional wreck.

Hi Bluejay,

I think you might be putting way too much stock in to something that isn't doctrine and isn't even frankly that important.

The question isn't: "Are women more righteous then men?"

The question of righteousness has nothing to do with groups, but rather individuals. You shouldn't be so concerned over whether a generic and non-existent 'woman' tends to be more righteous than a generic and non-existent 'Man'.

That man and woman don't exist. You exist. The only real important question is whether or not you're struggling to be righteous. Questions like this generally don't matter.

[pam]

Where's Vort now that one of his pet topics is being discussed???

I think he must have made a New Years resolution to give up lds.net as he hasn't posted since last year.

[HEthePrimate]

Could it be a way that male leaders of the Church attempt to make female members of the Church feel better about not having any actual power or decision-making authority? ( feeling naughty!)

HEP

[Seminarysnoozer]

Hi Bluejay,

I think you might be putting way too much stock in to something that isn't doctrine and isn't even frankly that important.

The question isn't: "Are women more righteous then men?"

The question of righteousness has nothing to do with groups, but rather individuals. You shouldn't be so concerned over whether a generic and non-existent 'woman' tends to be more righteous than a generic and non-existent 'Man'.

That man and woman don't exist. You exist. The only real important question is whether or not you're struggling to be righteous. Questions like this generally don't matter.

Yes! well said.

[john doe]

Could it be a way that male leaders of the Church attempt to make female members of the Church feel better about not having any actual power or decision-making authority? ( feeling naughty!)

HEP

No.

[MeIRL]

Could it be a way that male leaders of the Church attempt to make female members of the Church feel better about not having any actual power or decision-making authority? ( feeling naughty!)

Now there is the "heirarchy"-bashing I was expecting! Just didn't know who was going to start it out. You usually can't spot Salt Lake Tribune readers from usernames alone.

[beefche]

Oh for heaven's sakes...I'm thinking HEP said that with tongue in cheek, waiting for some of these reactions.

HEP, anytime you need my superior righteousness, you let me know. I'll condescend to provide you with wisdom and guidance. Then you can have the power to make the RIGHT decisions.