Mixing the races..?

[JohnnyRudick]

I'll second what others have said, I'm American (caucasian), but my husband is from India.

I spoke to my bishop a few times about some cultural differences we have, and also religious (my husband is a Catholic). And my bishop simply said,

"Well, that's why when people are young and single, we encourage dating inside your own culture and religion. Its got nothing to do with race, we are all humans. But a marriage is hard enough without extra differences to deal with."

While I agree and it sounds perfectly reasonable, sometimes you just can't help who you have that special bond with.

So, I guess the lessen here is - be careful who you

began to develop that special bond with?

[MarginOfError]

Aaronic Priesthood manual 3. Choosing an eternal companion.

I should point out Misskitty, my purpose isn't to dissuade you from dating this man. But to show that this isn't some obscure 1960 sign of the times quote given by a missinformed member but something taught from the manual updated in 1995.

Personally i see it like all council, general advice for the membership at large but something that doesn't fit every situation. So if you like this guy, date him and don't let the color of his skin getting in the way.

Thanks for looking that up for me. For those who are wondering why it is still in the manual, I have some comments to explain.

The current Aaronic Priesthood manuals were published in 1995, having received approval in 1992. I don't know how much they differ from the previous versions. Currently, each year the Church publishes a resource guide with supplemental (read: contemporary) resources for the corresponding lessons. It is up to the teacher to use the resource guide to replace and make relevant the current lessons.

So, to put it bluntly, this quote is still in the manuals because it costs a small fortune to produce new manuals, translate them into 70 languages, and publish them. The Church simply can't afford to do that very often. So dated quotes are bound to be in our lesson manuals.

I might also make the claim that it isn't a bad quote, but a very poor editing job. I looked up the speech in its entirety (you can download it as a pdf here), and the tone and message of the speech are exactly what is being provided here. The only reference to race is the statement in the Aaronic Priesthood manual--one sentence among eight pages. After saying that it is preferred that spouses come from the "same racial background generally" (and I think generally is a key word there), he later goes on to say,

Two people coming from different backgrounds soon learn after the ceremony is performed that stark reality must be faced. There is no longer a life of fantasy or of make-believe; we must come out of the clouds and put our feet firmly on the earth. Responsibility must be assumed and new duties accepted. Some personal freedoms must be relinquished and many adjustments, unselfish adjustments, must be made.

At one point, a formula for a successful marriage is offered.

There is a never-failing formula which will guarantee to every couple a happy and eternal marriage; but like all formulas, the principal ingredients must not be left out, reduced, or limited. The selection before courting and then the continued courting after the marriage process are equally important, but not more important than the marriage itself, the success of which depends upon the two individuals--not upon one, but upon two.

In a marriage commenced and based upon reasonable standards as already mentioned, there are no combinations of power which can destroy it except the power within either or both of the spouses themselves; and they must assume the responsibility generally. Other people and agencies may influence for good or bad. Financial, social, political, and other situations may seem to have a bearing; but the marriage depends first and always on the two spouses who can always make their marriage successful and happy if they are determined, unselfish, and righteous.

The formula is simple; the ingredients are few, though there are many amplifications of each.

First, there must be the proper approach toward marriage, which contemplates the selection of a spouse who reaches as nearly as possible the pinnacle of perfection in all matters which are of importance to the individuals. And then those two parties must come to the altar in the temple realizing that they must work hard toward this successful joint living.

Second, there must be a great unselfishness, forgetting self and direction all of the family life and all pertaining thereunto to the good of the family, subjugating self.

Third, there must be continued courting and expressions of affection, kindness, and consideration to keep love alive and growing.

Fourth, there must be a complete living of the commandments of the Lord as defined in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

So it seems odd to me that the quote that includes racial background is one of the three from that speech included in the Aaronic Priesthood manual. The other two are about the importance of choosing the right spouse, and about the fallacy of a "soul-mate." But it completely ignores the entire substance of this speech.

I highly recommend this speech. It's a good read with lots of good principles. And the next time that Aaronic Priesthood lesson comes up, I'd leave out the quote in question (its selection adds a misleading emphasis to race that was never intended) and use the formula quote as the centerpiece of discussion.

[Saguaro]

MOE, thanks for the background on the manuals. I wasn't aware of the supplemental resource guide, that's good to know. While I'm sure the guide helps add newer material to the lessons, it doesn't do anything about the old dated stuff.

I agree that it costs a lot of money to produce new manuals, but if these were approved in 1992 that makes them nearly 20 years old, yet we've had a new manual in RS/PH for nearly each of the last 10 years. I've heard the YW manuals are equally dated. It seems to be an issue of priority, and unforuantely the youth of our church are not being given a very high priority. But I'll remain optimistic and hope there are new manuals in the works.

[MarginOfError]

I haven't heard or read anything official, but I wouldn't hold your breath for new youth manuals. The Church is getting ready to release a new edition of the Church Handbook of Instructions, they've just finished revising Gospel Principles, and in order to have a new manual available for 2012, they'll need to have it heading to the publisher sometime this year.

But I agree. The youth manuals are atrocious. When I was teaching young men, I pretty much started with the lesson title, maybe one or two of the references in the material, and then took the rest on my own.

It's like they try so hard to boil it down to basics that they forget to provide any substance.

[Wingnut]

Also remember that the manuals are a guide. Just because a quote is in a lesson outline doesn't mean that you have to share it when you teach. And unless anyone is reading the manual as you teach your lesson, no one will be the wiser that a quote was left out.

I'm curious though -- racial tensions were not nearly as strong in 1992 (when the manual was approved) or 1995 (when it was released) as when the referenced statement was made -- why include it even as late as the early 90's? Mostly a rhetorical question, really.

FYI, the current YW manuals have a publication date of 1992. This means that, as a YW president in my ward, I am teaching my girls from the exact same lesson outlines that I was taught out of.

[Saguaro]

Also remember that the manuals are a guide. Just because a quote is in a lesson outline doesn't mean that you have to share it when you teach. And unless anyone is reading the manual as you teach your lesson, no one will be the wiser that a quote was left out.

Funny you should mention that, our YW president was complaining to my wife recently that one of the girls brought her ipod touch to class and was following along in the lesson and kept pointing out things she was missing.

[pam]

If I had been that teacher, I would have sat down and asked the girl to teach the lesson.

[Guest]

Ah yes. Different cultural backgrounds are definitely a challenge even for my husband and I who are super-duper stuck to each other like glue.

I'm Filipino, he's American. Every single day it's a challenge just to decide on dinner. For me, it is not dinner without plain white rice. For him, plain white rice is not good dietary decision for dinner. I have to learn to eat pot roast without rice just like he has to learn to eat spam out of a can with rice for dinner. It's a constant compromise. And that's just the easy one!

There are just too many subtle cultural differences that has the potential to break you - another simple difference - it is normal for Filipinos to send money to their parents. For Americans, that's a stupid waste of hard-earned money. This simple difference became a giant bone of contention between me and my husband.

But, the thing is, we both knew what we were getting into and we both resolved to work through ANY and ALL differences caused by our different cultural backgrounds. And we both love each other enough to accept the differences and live with it.

[Moksha]

... just like he has to learn to eat spam out of a can with rice for dinner.

This gives me hope that no matter the obstacle, we can swallow it one bite at a time. Your husband is a gem.

[prisonchaplain]

Abundant quantities of kimchee can overcome most any cultural difficulties. Besides, my wife discovered I have very few of the stereotypical American male qualities. Traveler may be right that there is only one race...but I dare say there are in excess of six billion cultures worldwide.

[pam]

I don't see kimchee overcoming anything :) Except perhaps a stuffed nose. The smell of it could clear anything.

[MissKitty]

I think the quote is still relevant today. Perhaps on not such a wide scale as shes a black girl hes a white guy (even thought I can appreciate that kind of mindless racism is still apparent in societys). But if you. look, for exmple, at the Hazara people of Afghanistan and the native Pahtuns, or Rowanda and the Hutu and Tutsi tribes, oh Zimbabwe with the Shona and Nbele. (I've probably miss spelt) but even though these people are of similiar skin tone, there can be a lot of violence towards others who are not of the same tribe.

Children who have a parent from different tribes would not actually "fit" into either and could be highly discrimated agaisnt so I don't think the counsel in the priesthood manuel is out of date though maybe it would be more tactful of them to replace the word race with cultural background. ALso the local people could cause a great deal of hostility to the family because the father married a girl from a different tribe for example. Or she stole one of our men. Those kinda things.

[hordak]

just like he has to learn to eat spam out of a can with rice for dinner.

If marrying outside ones race result is the consumption of spam then this advice need to be taken out of the manual, taught and general conference, and made Official declaration 3.

I have alot of respect for you anatess but no relationship should result in the consumption of spam

[Wingnut]

I don't see kimchee overcoming anything :) Except perhaps a stuffed nose. The smell of it could clear anything.

PC, could you send some of that kimchee my way today, please?

[theBUBBAMANcan]

White guy checking in...

If/when I get married I will be looking at, as MLK said, the content of her character...not the color of her skin.

If Heavenly Father blesses me with the love of a good LDS woman I will spend my time being thankful rather than worrying about skin color, lol

[JohnnyRudick]

White guy checking in...

If/when I get married I will be looking at, as MLK said, the content of her character...not the color of her skin.

If Heavenly Father blesses me with the love of a good LDS woman I will spend my time being thankful rather than worrying about skin color, lol

Well said Bubbaman:)

[ruthiechan]

I think the quote is still relevant today. Perhaps on not such a wide scale as shes a black girl hes a white guy (even thought I can appreciate that kind of mindless racism is still apparent in societys). But if you. look, for exmple, at the Hazara people of Afghanistan and the native Pahtuns, or Rowanda and the Hutu and Tutsi tribes, oh Zimbabwe with the Shona and Nbele. (I've probably miss spelt) but even though these people are of similiar skin tone, there can be a lot of violence towards others who are not of the same tribe.

Children who have a parent from different tribes would not actually "fit" into either and could be highly discrimated agaisnt so I don't think the counsel in the priesthood manuel is out of date though maybe it would be more tactful of them to replace the word race with cultural background. ALso the local people could cause a great deal of hostility to the family because the father married a girl from a different tribe for example. Or she stole one of our men. Those kinda things.

Thank you for this. We have to remember that we are a global church. Therefore, it makes sense to have a general guideline in the youth manuals about race and culture. We must also remember that for many people in other cultures, race is the same as culture.

[mrmarklin]

PC, could you send some of that kimchee my way today, please?

Yes, kimchee really is quite wonderful!!!

[prisonchaplain]

PC, could you send some of that kimchee my way today, please?

Sure...here you go: Mother in Law's Kimchi - Artisan Kimchee Gift - Made in New York - Mother In Law's Kimchi Be sure and send some Pam's way. I know she'll see the light eventually.

[Wingnut]

Meh...I don't need it anymore. I was just really plugged up the other day. I resorted to peppermint essential oil and Mentholatum to help me breathe.

[dorave]

The only scripture reference I found was in Alma (I think it was Alma) when he councils the tribes not to corrupt their seed by mixing but I can hardly see how that is important now?

Some race based cultures and traditions even today are in direct conflict to church teachings, marry someone not willing to abandon or compromise such activity would be a detriment to your own beliefs, if you believe in what the church teaches.

[mrmarklin]

Some race based cultures and traditions even today are in direct conflict to church teachings, marry someone not willing to abandon or compromise such activity would be a detriment to your own beliefs, if you believe in what the church teaches.

Alma was really saying don't marry outside the Church.

[Seminarysnoozer]

The child of Hagar and Abraham, Ishmael wasn't good enough for the Lord, which had to be a race thing. Wasn't it? It couldn't have just been a cultural thing as Hagar was good enough to become Abraham's wife, meaning she was likely of the same religion and belief. I've always wondered if that was a race thing.

[Wingnut]

Was Hagar actually Abraham's wife? She was Sarah's handmaid, and since Sarah couldn't conceive, she gave Hagar to Abraham to conceive on her behalf. When Hagar conceived, Sarah was jealous and kicked her out. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Hagar and Abraham were never actually married.

[Moksha]

Was Hagar actually Abraham's wife? She was Sarah's handmaid, and since Sarah couldn't conceive, she gave Hagar to Abraham to conceive on her behalf. When Hagar conceived, Sarah was jealous and kicked her out. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Hagar and Abraham were never actually married.

Such are the hazards of multiple unions, of the pitfalls of being a Baby Mommy and the perfidy and fickleness of a Baby Daddy.