Romans 16:1

[marshac]

I came across this today and found it interesting-

In the KJV, Romans 16:1 says

"I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea"

However in other bible translations, 'servant' is translated as deacon. In an attempt to figure out the disparity, I checked out Wikipedia, and it actually has an entry for Phoebe, and the main point is this-

"Some have interpreted the Greek "diakonos" to relate Phoebe as a deaconess, the most literal interpretation of the word is as a servant which is what all deacons or deaconesses should be. Hence why they are called "deacon" which comes directly from Diakonos."

Next I checked on what the greek word for a regular servant would be just to make sure that "diakonos" wasn't a generic term, and indeed, it's not- The greek term for a regular servant is doulos.

So clearly this woman is not a regular servant in how we would think of the term today, and due to the word chosen, is probably what we would think of as a deacon. So how is it that a woman in the original church could hold the title/office of a deacon? Isn't this inconsistent with our understanding of the priesthood? Thoughts?

[Finrock]

Good afternoon marshac! I hope you are enjoying your day. :)

I came across this today and found it interesting-

In the KJV, Romans 16:1 says

"I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea"

However in other bible translations, 'servant' is translated as deacon. In an attempt to figure out the disparity, I checked out Wikipedia, and it actually has an entry for Phoebe, and the main point is this-

"Some have interpreted the Greek "diakonos" to relate Phoebe as a deaconess, the most literal interpretation of the word is as a servant which is what all deacons or deaconesses should be. Hence why they are called "deacon" which comes directly from Diakonos."

Next I checked on what the greek word for a regular servant would be just to make sure that "diakonos" wasn't a generic term, and indeed, it's not- The greek term for a regular servant is doulos.

So clearly this woman is not a regular servant in how we would think of the term today, and due to the word chosen, is probably what we would think of as a deacon. So how is it that a woman in the original church could hold the title/office of a deacon? Isn't this inconsistent with our understanding of the priesthood? Thoughts?

From what I gather the word "doulus" is intended to mean a slave servant. It seems in context that this isn't what Phebe was. On the other hand, "diakonos" seems to indicate someone who is a servant of royalty or serving because of desire and not because of coersion. So, I don't think in that verse it is speaking of the office of deacon, but of a person who faithfully serves in the Church.

I think that an amplified translation of the verse would be something like this: "I present this woman Phebe as someone who is worthy, having willfully and faithfully served in the church at Cenchrea."

Regards,

Finrock

[prisonchaplain]

Just to offer an expanded and contrary perspective, my rather conservative, fundamentalist church ordains women, in part, due to dear Sis. Phoebe. http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_downloads/pp_4191_women_ministry.pdf

[Maureen]

The NET Bible gives this information:

Now I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant 1 of the church in Cenchrea…(Romans 16:1)

1 tn Or “deaconess.” It is debated whether διάκονος (diakonos) here refers to a specific office within the church. One contextual argument used to support this view is that Phoebe is associated with a particular church, Cenchrea, and as such would therefore be a deacon of that church. In the NT some who are called διάκονος are related to a particular church, yet the scholarly consensus is that such individuals are not deacons, but “servants” or “ministers” (other viable translations for διάκονος). For example, Epaphras is associated with the church in Colossians and is called a διάκονος in Col 1:7, but no contemporary translation regards him as a deacon. In 1 Tim 4:6 Paul calls Timothy a διάκονος; Timothy was associated with the church in Ephesus, but he obviously was not a deacon. In addition, the lexical evidence leans away from this view: Within the NT, the διακον- word group rarely functions with a technical nuance. In any case, the evidence is not compelling either way. The view accepted in the translation above is that Phoebe was a servant of the church, not a deaconess, although this conclusion should be regarded as tentative.

NETBible: Romans 16

M.

[Intrigued]

I was under the impression that women do in fact hold the Priesthood (through their husbands, especially). They do not a hold an office but they can and may exercise it if the need arises. It is also not unheard of for an LDS wife to exercise administering priesthood blessings in unison with her husband. I also would like to point out that women receive 'all the blessings of Abraham, etc' (along with many other blessings) while getting their endowments, right?

In 1873, Apostle George A. Smith, then a member of the first presidency, travelled with a party of Mormons, including Lorenzo Snow, his sister Eliza, Feramorz Little and others, to the Holy Land. At a stopover in Bologna, Italy, he felt ill. "I became fatigued and dizzy," he wrote in his diary. "I got into a carriage and returned to the hotel. On arriving at the hotel I found myself so unwell that I requested Bros. Snow and Little and Sister Eliza to lay hands on me."

- George A. Smith, Diary, 9 January 1873, holograph, CA.

In 1849 Eliza Jane Merrick, an English convert, reported healing her sister: "I anointed her chest with the oil you consecrated, and also gave her some inwardly .... She continued very ill all the evening: her breath very short, and the fever very high. I again anointed her chest in the name of the Lord, and asked his blessing; he was graciously pleased to hear me, and in the course of twenty-four hours, she was as well as if nothing had been the matter."

- Jane Merrick Journal and Letters 1849, page 205

"His father and mother [Phoebe Carter Woodruff] laid hands upon him and blessed him and dedicated him unto the Lord" (Wilford Woodruff Jr. Journal , 4:244)

(Thought I would point this out.. I thought it was very interesting. Coincidence I'm sure. )

Edited April 23, 2010 by Intrigued

[Traveler]

A couple of observations. First - it is apparent that man has little authority to interpret scripture. Those that rely on scripture to define doctrine must deal with some degree of uncertainty. I am not sure this in how man should define themselves before G-d.

In LDS theology scripture is important and studying scripture is vital to spiritual quest but when there is any degree of confusion LDS theology allows for revelation through G-d’s appointed “Apostles” and “Prophets”. This structure is conducive to the L-rd’s intent that his flock (kingdom) have “unity” in their faith and doctrine and that there is no cause for division among us.

With other scripture provided by the Doctrine and Covenants there is no guessing, on wondering concerning the will of G-d.

There is one other dimension not being considered in this discussion. There are many ancient documents that are not included in our current Bible that are known and studied. We have experienced and know that many well intentioned individuals attempting to serve G-d take upon themselves tasks, duties and other responsibilities beyond G-d’s calling them to service. This happens at all levels – even among general authorities. Even Joseph Smith acknowledged errors in his service. LDS theology is one of few exceptions that can allow for leadership error among an individual and still maintain covenant solidarity by establishing the L-ord’s organizational structure. Thus we are not dependent on any single individual. Even our president is authorized through a presidency of 3 that is shadowed by a quorum of 12 apostles which holds the same authority in reserve. For matter of covenant and doctrine the presidency of 3 and quorum of 12 acts unanimously and are upheld by common consent (sustaining vote) of the church membership.

The Traveler

[TheAngelPalmoni]

Notice when we are given the priesthood on any level we are never told in the ordinance to receive any more power than we currently have. It is simply something we already have the ordination just gives us access to those keys... I would say that the Gift of the Holy Ghost, Grace, the Fire, or the Spirit of Christ is the Priesthood. I would say that Both Men and Women have this Gift of the Holy Ghost. Men are ordained to use it in specific capacities but the women use it and do not need to be ordained to minister in the Temple.

web.me.com/angelpalmoni

[Blackmarch]

I came across this today and found it interesting-

In the KJV, Romans 16:1 says

"I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea"

However in other bible translations, 'servant' is translated as deacon. In an attempt to figure out the disparity, I checked out Wikipedia, and it actually has an entry for Phoebe, and the main point is this-

"Some have interpreted the Greek "diakonos" to relate Phoebe as a deaconess, the most literal interpretation of the word is as a servant which is what all deacons or deaconesses should be. Hence why they are called "deacon" which comes directly from Diakonos."

Next I checked on what the greek word for a regular servant would be just to make sure that "diakonos" wasn't a generic term, and indeed, it's not- The greek term for a regular servant is doulos.

So clearly this woman is not a regular servant in how we would think of the term today, and due to the word chosen, is probably what we would think of as a deacon. So how is it that a woman in the original church could hold the title/office of a deacon? Isn't this inconsistent with our understanding of the priesthood? Thoughts?

I don't think the relief society that we have today wouild be considered as a "regular" servant or service either. My guess would be that there probably was some sort of organization or order created for women.

Or it could mean a woman of faith that was prominent in the church.

Or perhaps a wife of a leader.

[Adomini22]

A couple of observations. First - it is apparent that man has little authority to interpret scripture. Those that rely on scripture to define doctrine must deal with some degree of uncertainty. I am not sure this in how man should define themselves before G-d.

In LDS theology scripture is important and studying scripture is vital to spiritual quest but when there is any degree of confusion LDS theology allows for revelation through G-d’s appointed “Apostles” and “Prophets”. This structure is conducive to the L-rd’s intent that his flock (kingdom) have “unity” in their faith and doctrine and that there is no cause for division among us.

The Traveler

Traveler, I like your posts. I do. But I have to say something that I feel is important.

Scripture is given to us so that we may interpret it. That is why we have it. Any other reason other than this one given I do not believe in (such as God/prophets going through so much to give us these scriptures, and then not letting us read/interpret them)

Also, scripture makes sure that we are on the right path. Give you an example. Adam-God doctrine, taught by Brigham Young himself. Now, this was opinion, as stated by current general authorities, but scripture can be used to help determine what is opinion and what is actually scripture. GA's make mistakes doctrinally like we do. History (and scripture) proves this.

Best Regards.

[Still_Small_Voice]

I don't think the relief society that we have today wouild be considered as a "regular" servant or service either. My guess would be that there probably was some sort of organization or order created for women.

Or it could mean a woman of faith that was prominent in the church.

Or perhaps a wife of a leader.

I was thinking along the same lines. I think Paul was referring to a specific calling this woman had.

Only righteous worthy men are ordained to the priesthood. But women can work mighty miracles thru faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. There is almost nothing that a woman can't do in faith except the ordinances of the Holy Priesthood.

[Matthew0059]

I agree that it probably meant some office other than what we call a 'deacon' in the current organization of the Church- probably similar to a modern-day Relief Society leader (and similar to the prophetesses of the Old Testament), or the wife of a prophet or church leader.

I don't think we should look too much into the disparity of titles if they exist; while many titles have remained some have changed ('evangelist' to 'patriarch', for example).