Please Help

[dizzysmiles]

This post will sound very disturbing or racist and I apologize for it. I have been having a conversation with someone who believes these things. I need HELP with any doctorinal evidence that this person is WRONG. Otherwise, if you feel he is right, show me the evidence that he is.

These are what he thinks:

1. "The holocaust happened because the Jews killed Jesus." - I say that since the begining before Christ came, the Jews have always had trouble. They were slaves, and had been in bondage for YEARS. I also said that I as we are not held accountable for Adam's transgressions, why would their great great and so on grandchildren be held accountable for theirs? ( I know that if there was an action there is a consequence, but this wasn't something like the Jews destroyed the temple, never rebuilt it and therefore their offspring never got to go to the temple) It happened because there is such a thing as EVIL and it exists!

2. "In the pre-mortal life there were those that shouted for joy, and those that went with satan. However, there was also fence sitters not knowing which to go, therefore they were desendants of cain and are what we know as black people. Therefore they couldn't have the preisthood for years." - I said that is foolish. We all are God's children and he isn't going to Punish us for something we did in the pre-mortal life when we came here for our test. Joseph Smith had a friend who was black who had was given the priesthood back in the day. I am not sure exactly why they had to wait for a while, (but still this isn't the debate here) the debate is that we all have our trials, and maybe they came with a different color of skin because they happen to be stronger to withhold the trials of racisim? Either way doesn't matter what color you are, We are all God's children. If we were all the same, life would be boring. I am sure there were fencesitters,but we don't know who they are, it could have been any of us and that isn't bad thing! The beauty of it is they had a CHOICE, why would God give them a conseqence for deciding what they wanted to do and chose the right?

3. " After the millenium a thousand years of peace ( satan will be in bondage, but after he will be released), Satan will once more reign for a thousand years before judgment and then be cast to outerdarkness."

I thought that Christ casts Satan out before the millenium. I don't like the idea of this yo yo - a thousand years of peace, after the destroying of the earth as we know it, then just to have a thousand years back of wickedness?!- Plus if only good people are alive in the milleinum (whether resurected, twinkled or whatever) where will all the bad guys come from? I thought Satan was cast out, the millenuim happens and then judgment.. no in between of satan reigning again. This is his chance, now.

Well that is enough for right now, but those are the three that I need help with support from scriptures or so on that A. Jews and the holocaust. B. Fence sitters are of different races. C. satan coming back after the mil.... HElp!

Edited May 12, 2010 by dizzysmiles

[FunkyTown]

Dizzy?

Your friend is dictating the argument. His arguments are not based upon scripture, but rather a misunderstanding of scripture. If you bash with him, he will simply ignore your biblical evidence or claim it doesn't mean what you think it means. He is saying what he's saying because he has a point to prove. Don't let him do it.

The moment you posted these things, I could envision the type of person who would say it. Don't get in to it with him.

[Wingnut]

I definitely agree with Funkytown on this one.

However, I personally believe that there were fencesitters in the proverbial war in heaven. I don't believe that they were punished or that they are any one particular race, though. There are plenty of people in this world who are evil (or otherwise unrighteous) who are white.

[dizzysmiles]

I definitely agree with Funkytown on this one.

However, I personally believe that there were fencesitters in the proverbial war in heaven. I don't believe that they were punished or that they are any one particular race, though. There are plenty of people in this world who are evil (or otherwise unrighteous) who are white.

Yes I agree. However, the man telling me this is my HUSBAND! I have to prove him wrong. What's so shocking is he never says anything bad about anyone, I honestly think it's because of little rumors he heard as a child and simply believes it.

[FunkyTown]

Yes I agree. However, the man telling me this is my HUSBAND! I have to prove him wrong. What's so shocking is he never says anything bad about anyone, I honestly think it's because of little rumors he heard as a child and simply believes it.

Ouch.

Well, then you can say anything you want to him. You don't have to disprove anything.

Say, 'Dear? We could argue about this or you could go watch Nascar for the next few hours. Go. Watch Nascar. While you're doing that, I'll look up and see if there are any hodowns.'

He might not get it.

But I'll laugh.

[MarginOfError]

This post will sound very disturbing or racist and I apologize for it. I have been having a conversation with someone who believes these things. I need HELP with any doctorinal evidence that this person is WRONG. Otherwise, if you feel he is right, show me the evidence that he is.

These are what he thinks:

1. "The holocaust happened because the Jews killed Jesus." - I say that since the begining before Christ came, the Jews have always had trouble. They were slaves, and had been in bondage for YEARS. I also said that I as we are not held accountable for Adam's transgressions, why would their great great and so on grandchildren be held accountable for theirs? ( I know that if there was an action there is a consequence, but this wasn't something like the Jews destroyed the temple, never rebuilt it and therefore their offspring never got to go to the temple) It happened because there is such a thing as EVIL and it exists!

To a certain extent, this is true. At least in the sense that it was the justification that some wicked people used for slaughtering the Jews. But the fact that it is true doesn't make it right. In fact, it was horribly wrong, indefensible, and entirely un-Christlike.

2. "In the pre-mortal life there were those that shouted for joy, and those that went with satan. However, there was also fence sitters not knowing which to go, therefore they were desendants of cain and are what we know as black people. Therefore they couldn't have the preisthood for years." - I said that is foolish. We all are God's children and he isn't going to Punish us for something we did in the pre-mortal life when we came here for our test. Joseph Smith had a friend who was black who had was given the priesthood back in the day. I am not sure exactly why they had to wait for a while, (but still this isn't the debate here) the debate is that we all have our trials, and maybe they came with a different color of skin because they happen to be stronger to withhold the trials of racisim? Either way doesn't matter what color you are, We are all God's children. If we were all the same, life would be boring. I am sure there were fencesitters,but we don't know who they are, it could have been any of us and that isn't bad thing! The beauty of it is they had a CHOICE, why would God give them a conseqence for deciding what they wanted to do and chose the right?

I believe this was a statement made by Brigham Young to a legislative body in Congress, but don't quote me on that. There was a good article about this in an issue of Sunstone in 2005 or 2006. The article also detailed a number of other evidences that the priesthood ban may have stronger roots in racism than in doctrine. In any case, there's no scriptural evidence that the 'fence sitters' were destined to be the descendants of Cain.

3. " After the millenium a thousand years of peace ( satan will be in bondage, but after he will be released), Satan will once more reign for a thousand years before judgment and then be cast to outerdarkness."

I thought that Christ casts Satan out before the millenium. I don't like the idea of this yo yo - a thousand years of peace, after the destroying of the earth as we know it, then just to have a thousand years back of wickedness?!- Plus if only good people are alive in the milleinum (whether resurected, twinkled or whatever) where will all the bad guys come from? I thought Satan was cast out, the millenuim happens and then judgment.. no in between of satan reigning again. This is his chance, now.

Again, I believe there is some truth, but I don't care to look up the references. If I remember, after the Millenium, Satan will be loosed for a time before the end of the world. I don't recall ever reading anything that said it would be 1,000 years. The time could be significantly shorter. The scriptures, if I recall correctly, are kind of vague on time frame.

Well that is enough for right now, but those are the three that I need help with support from scriptures or so on that A. Jews and the holocaust. B. Fence sitters are of different races. C. satan coming back after the mil.... HElp!

What it sounds like to me is that your husband is taking a number of unverified statements he heard people make in his youth and accepting them as doctrine. He should spend more time reading the scriptures and questioning some of the things he believes. Personally, I don't believe there's much point in believing anything if you don't know why you believe it or what it's origin is. Simply accepting what people have told you without searching for its source is the easiest way for false doctrine to creep into the Church.

[dizzysmiles]

Ouch.

Well, then you can say anything you want to him. You don't have to disprove anything.

Say, 'Dear? We could argue about this or you could go watch Nascar for the next few hours. Go. Watch Nascar. While you're doing that, I'll look up and see if there are any hodowns.'

He might not get it.

But I'll laugh.

Lol, I am sure he will get it. He Ain't No Redneck.. jk lol

[Traveler]

This post will sound very disturbing or racist and I apologize for it. I have been having a conversation with someone who believes these things. I need HELP with any doctorinal evidence that this person is WRONG. Otherwise, if you feel he is right, show me the evidence that he is.

These are what he thinks:

1. "The holocaust happened because the Jews killed Jesus." - I say that since the begining before Christ came, the Jews have always had trouble. They were slaves, and had been in bondage for YEARS. I also said that I as we are not held accountable for Adam's transgressions, why would their great great and so on grandchildren be held accountable for theirs? ( I know that if there was an action there is a consequence, but this wasn't something like the Jews destroyed the temple, never rebuilt it and therefore their offspring never got to go to the temple) It happened because there is such a thing as EVIL and it exists!

2. "In the pre-mortal life there were those that shouted for joy, and those that went with satan. However, there was also fence sitters not knowing which to go, therefore they were desendants of cain and are what we know as black people. Therefore they couldn't have the preisthood for years." - I said that is foolish. We all are God's children and he isn't going to Punish us for something we did in the pre-mortal life when we came here for our test. Joseph Smith had a friend who was black who had was given the priesthood back in the day. I am not sure exactly why they had to wait for a while, (but still this isn't the debate here) the debate is that we all have our trials, and maybe they came with a different color of skin because they happen to be stronger to withhold the trials of racisim? Either way doesn't matter what color you are, We are all God's children. If we were all the same, life would be boring. I am sure there were fencesitters,but we don't know who they are, it could have been any of us and that isn't bad thing! The beauty of it is they had a CHOICE, why would God give them a conseqence for deciding what they wanted to do and chose the right?

3. " After the millenium a thousand years of peace ( satan will be in bondage, but after he will be released), Satan will once more reign for a thousand years before judgment and then be cast to outerdarkness."

I thought that Christ casts Satan out before the millenium. I don't like the idea of this yo yo - a thousand years of peace, after the destroying of the earth as we know it, then just to have a thousand years back of wickedness?!- Plus if only good people are alive in the milleinum (whether resurected, twinkled or whatever) where will all the bad guys come from? I thought Satan was cast out, the millenuim happens and then judgment.. no in between of satan reigning again. This is his chance, now.

Well that is enough for right now, but those are the three that I need help with support from scriptures or so on that A. Jews and the holocaust. B. Fence sitters are of different races. C. satan coming back after the mil.... HElp!

Some thoughts:

1. There are a number of LDS that believe that a possible reason the holocaust was allowed to happen during WWII was because the Jews were ignoring their ancient covenant and not returning to Jerusalem. This seems more reasonable and relevant to me than “punishment” for Jesus’ death 2,000 years ago.

2. See Alma 13. This is a good chapter about select individuals from the pre-existence being pre-ordained to the priesthood in this life on the account of their exceeding faith. We are told in scripture that there was a third part of heaven that followed Satan. Many think this means that one out of 3 followed Satan – this is not correct. It means that Heaven was divided into 3 parts or groups – we are not told how many there were in each part. Satan took one part. Abraham 2 identifies the second part as the “noble and great”. The other part are sometimes called fence sitters. This is false. They chose to follow G-d’s plan but they did not qualify as “noble and great”. Also note that following the flood mankind was divided into three groups, 1. The covenant children of G-d 2. The gentiles and 3. The outcasts sometimes called “infidels”. So also is the resurrection – there are 3 groups. It should not be a surprise that Heaven was also divided into three parts.

3. The term millennium means 1,000. The dispensation known of as the millennium is like a “Sabbath” era to “rest” in the work of the L-rd and bring peace to mankind in the covenant and promise G-d made in the creation that is also in 7 dispensations. At the end of this final Sabbath era of peace Satan will be loosed for one last time. The scriptures call this a season – it is at the end of the Sabbath or millennium dispensation and is not another dispensation. See Revelation chapter 20 about the millennium and verse 7 speaks to the release of Satan. At the beginning of the millennium dispensation Satan is bound, at the very end he is cast out forever from the children of men resurrected to glory.

I would say your husband was likely to have been raised in a good home – and now it is time for the two of you to study these things together (read scriptures together on a regular schedule) and make your home a safer place for the spirit of G-d in these troubled times preparing the few that will remain for the millennium.

The Traveler

[WillowTheWhisp]

Dizzy?

Your friend is dictating the argument. His arguments are not based upon scripture, but rather a misunderstanding of scripture. If you bash with him, he will simply ignore your biblical evidence or claim it doesn't mean what you think it means. He is saying what he's saying because he has a point to prove. Don't let him do it.

The moment you posted these things, I could envision the type of person who would say it. Don't get in to it with him.

Every time I read this sort of response on here I cringe. People do have genuine queries and are genuinely puzzled about things they have been taught in the past but are not sure are scripturally accurate, or things which don't seem to gel with what they learn in church and yet they are not sure where they have come from. Simply telling people to blithely ignore such concerns does not put them to rest. If anything it sounds more like blind obedience and a refusal to look at any other point of view.

Surely it is more productive to look at the queries and look at the scriptures and study what prophets have taught and reach some sort of conclusion about whether or not something is accurate.

[Elgama]

I might be able to help historically with number 1 it wasn't just Jews that were part of the holocaust they were just the start, but homosexuals, gypsies, JWs etc all were sent to the death camps

[rameumptom]

Tell your husband he is welcome to his opinion. Or, he can prove to you his points by bringing out the evidence. Otherwise it is only opinion.

However, to help you a bit, try these links:

There is no scriptural evidence that God punished the Jews with the Holocaust for killing Jesus. However, the Nazis and others used that excuse for enacting the Holocaust: Antisemitism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fence Sitters: Blacks and the Priesthood

The scriptures teach that Satan "will be loosed for a season" at the end of the Millennium (Rev 20), during which he will gather his last troops for the final war of Gog and Magog. This will not be for a thousand years, but for a matter of years, maybe a few decades at most. There will be a giant battle, with Michael/Adam leading the armies of God. At the end of the war, the wicked will be finally cast into Outer Darkness for eternity.

Adam and Eve (LDS Church) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And also this one: LDSLastDays.com

[mnn727]

1. This was part of Hitlers propaganda to stir up hatred against the Jews

2. This was passed along by some people and is a Mormon myth, but this was completly debunked by modern day Prophets (Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, "There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan.")

3. 1000 year reign of Satan!!! just plain false (although he will "be released for a season" according to scripture - Rev 20:3 )

Edited May 12, 2010 by mnn727

[MarginOfError]

Tell your husband he is welcome to his opinion. Or, he can prove to you his points by bringing out the evidence. Otherwise it is only opinion.

However, to help you a bit, try these links:

There is no scriptural evidence that God punished the Jews with the Holocaust for killing Jesus. However, the Nazis and others used that excuse for enacting the Holocaust: Antisemitism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fence Sitters: Blacks and the Priesthood

The scriptures teach that Satan "will be loosed for a season" at the end of the Millennium (Rev 20), during which he will gather his last troops for the final war of Gog and Magog. This will not be for a thousand years, but for a matter of years, maybe a few decades at most. There will be a giant battle, with Michael/Adam leading the armies of God. At the end of the war, the wicked will be finally cast into Outer Darkness for eternity.

Adam and Eve (LDS Church) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And also this one: LDSLastDays.com

Thanks for covering up my sloth by looking up references! You're the great enabler Ram.

[WillowTheWhisp]

2. This was passed along by some people and is a Mormon myth, but this was completly debunked by modern day Prophets (Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, "There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan.")

Thanks for that. I have sometimes been troubled by the thought that I was a fence sitter when I let myself down here.

[dizzysmiles]

I might be able to help historically with number 1 it wasn't just Jews that were part of the holocaust they were just the start, but homosexuals, gypsies, JWs etc all were sent to the death camps

Yes that is exactly true!

[dizzysmiles]

Thanks for that. I have sometimes been troubled by the thought that I was a fence sitter when I let myself down here.

If anything, I honestly think we had the agency to study our options in our minds before we chose. I don't find that a bad thing. I also think we ALL let ourselves down here in a place called LIFE. Doesn't make us a horrible person or less loved of God. :)

[volgadon]

1. There are a number of LDS that believe that a possible reason the holocaust was allowed to happen during WWII was because the Jews were ignoring their ancient covenant and not returning to Jerusalem. This seems more reasonable and relevant to me than “punishment” for Jesus’ death 2,000 years ago.

Perhaps you would care to explain why this happened when there was a mass emigration to Israel, a decade long emigration on the heels of another mass emigration, this emigration ending solely withe the outbreak of WW2, a mass emigration from the areas hardest hit by the Holocaust?

[Wingnut]

I guess I understand Joseph Fielding Smith's statement. Obviously, everyone chose sides -- there's no one stuck in limbo in between. I kind-of think of the war in heaven like a high school football game, though.

You have the players down on the field, right in the thick of it, getting dirty and getting injured. Then you have the cheerleaders, the band, and the die-hard fans, right in front, loud as can be. They're at every game, without fail. Then you've got most of the rest of the fans. They cheer when they're not chatting with their friends. Maybe there are some parents or other alumni thrown in that mix. You've got people at the concession stand, wondering what all the cheering is about, what they just missed. Finally, you've got the kids on the tops rows of bleachers, jeering at everyone else, throwing popcorn at people, and debating when to leave and go smoke pot under the bleachers.

Ultimately, everyone came to the game, but there are definitely those who are more involved than others.

[Traveler]

Perhaps you would care to explain why this happened when there was a mass emigration to Israel, a decade long emigration on the heels of another mass emigration, this emigration ending solely withe the outbreak of WW2, a mass emigration from the areas hardest hit by the Holocaust?

There were many events that "encouraged" Jews to "gather" and return to their home land from Europe for the past 150 years or so. It appears that those that gathered to Jerusalem prior to WWII were not involved in the holocaust of WWII.

One of the three basic pillars of covenantal blessing for obedience is protection from one’s enemies and a primary malediction of covenantal disobedience is loss of protection from one’s enemies. If you have a more reasonable explanation for the Jews lost in the holocaust – I would be most interested.

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

I definitely agree with Funkytown on this one.

However, I personally believe that there were fencesitters in the proverbial war in heaven. I don't believe that they were punished or that they are any one particular race, though. There are plenty of people in this world who are evil (or otherwise unrighteous) who are white.

Concur with the last statement. There was more than a third that rebelled after the announcement of the plan but not enough of a rebellious state to be cast out. What was left of those who already choose the Savior was required to do missionary work to save them.

The numbers of who was with the chosen Son does not exceed that choose the easier modified plan of Salvation presented by Lucifer. Perhaps, this is why Lucifer thought he had it in the bag.

There were, as stated by earlier GA of church, TELESTIAL SPIRITS, TERRESTRIAL BEINGS, and CELESTIAL BEINGS in the beginning.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Hemidakota

[volgadon]

There were many events that "encouraged" Jews to "gather" and return to their home land from Europe for the past 150 years or so. It appears that those that gathered to Jerusalem prior to WWII were not involved in the holocaust of WWII.

As a matter of fact, many who had gathered to Israel were caught up in the Holocaust when visitng relatives or on missions to encourage immigration.

Many more could not emigrate because the war broke out!

One of the three basic pillars of covenantal blessing for obedience is protection from one’s enemies and a primary malediction of ovenantal disobedience is loss of protection from one’s enemies. If you have a more reasonable explanation for the Jews lost in the holocaust – I would be most interested.

The Traveler

I'm off to work, so I don't have time to go into my personal thoughts on an event in which many of my family perished, but the not gathering to Israel theory is ridiculous.

[Traveler]

As a matter of fact, many who had gathered to Israel were caught up in the Holocaust when visitng relatives or on missions to encourage immigration.

Many more could not emigrate because the war broke out!

I'm off to work, so I don't have time to go into my personal thoughts on an event in which many of my family perished, but the not gathering to Israel theory is ridiculous.

I'm in no hurry. I am interested in your view. BTW - any numbers to compare before and after?

The Traveler

[SamuelWattles]

In response to your question, #2, we shouldn't be too surprised that there was a judgement involved when we left pre-existence to come to the earth anymore than we should be surprised to learn that there is a judgment involved when we leave this world to enter the spirit world, and a judgment involved when we leave the spirit world to be resurrected and so on. However, the business of spirits "sitting on the fence" in pre-existence was addressed by Joseph Fielding Smith in his "Answers to Gospel Questions."

There were no "fence sitters in pre-existence." It's true that some were more valiant than others. so we shouldn't be surprised to learn that the more valiant received different callings (if I can be permitted to use that term) than others, just as the more valiant in this earth life will receive "different callings" in the eternal worlds.

As for question #3, the conflict at the end of the millenium will come about for the same reasons the Nephites and Lamanites fell from their righteous state after just a few hundred years. Joseph Field Smith (I believe) is the one who suggested the period of conflict after the thousand year millenium "might be" a thousand years, because Christ came in the "meridium of time (middle of)," which if taken literally would mean that there would have to be the same period of time forward as had passed before Christ was born -- namely, 4,000 years!

Your husband has obviously read a number of LDS works, because he's not that far off off target, only some of the details he's naming are not on target. For one thing it was not the color black, but the Negro race that weren't allowed the priesthood. Remember Joseph also learned line upon line. We have a bad habit of expecting our prophets to always speak "thus sayeth the Lord."

Sam

[Moksha]

1. "The holocaust happened because the Jews killed Jesus."

If I understand the story correctly, it was the Roman soldiers who performed the Crucifixion of Jesus.

[Moksha]

2. "In the pre-mortal life there were those that shouted for joy, and those that went with Satan. However, there was also fence sitters not knowing which to go, therefore they were descendants of Cain and are what we know as black people.

I think this is best addressed by realizing that skin color has nothing whatsoever to do with curses. It is due to varying degrees of skin pigments. It is truly unfortunate that theories trying to justify racism became intertangled with religion.

The jury is still out as to whether tea plants were indeed planted too close to the fence and thus were blessed with being health promoting from the heavenly fence side and cursed from a theological perspective for being to close to the devilish side. Being a plant is a tough row to hoe.