The LDS Industry

[justaname]

I remember being on my mission in a poor area and coming across a HUGE Spanish style mansion. It was easily 7-8k sq. ft. whereas all the other homes in the area were 1k or less apartments or old, dilapidated homes. Come to find out, this large home was owned by the local minister. I suppose that was the first time it ever dawned on me that people get rich from religion. I have a real hard time with that concept. I used to think that stuff doesnt happen in our church, but little by little, Im recognizing the big money that is being made in our religion.

Each time I walk into a Seagull and Deseret Book, I feel a little bit bothered by how much money is being made by "selling the gospel". There are so many products that are sold to LDS members such as books, paintings, puzzles, scripture enhancers, figurines, sculptures etc. It just feels weird to think that people are using members of the church as a means to make money. I wanted to get some of your thoughts on a few thoughts about this stuff.

Lots of our apostles, seventy, RS, Primary and even the First Presidency write books. Obviously they arent doing it for free. They are making money as well as the publishers. First question is, are we to take these books as scripture? Second, am I the only one that feels strange about our leaders making a dollar on sales of their books? I know people that treat these books as "must haves" and buy them all. Yes, I believe in capitalism, but . . . it just doesnt sit right with me. Its hard to pinpoint. What are the motives behind writing these books? Are they attempting to make a dollar, supplement the scriptures, or are so pure that they are simply trying to make the world a better place?

There are others that are making money off of selling figurines of heroes of the scriptures. There are coloring books, Book of Mormon bingo, card games, Book of Mormon simplified books, stickers, etc. For some reason I have a hard time envisioning Captain Moroni even THINKING about marketing the Title of Liberty, or King Benjamin selling additional thoughts about his sermon, or Ammon selling little replica swords.

We have people that paint tons of pictures of Christ, images of the scriptures, or of prophets and church history scenes. We have sculptures too. Lots of them. Let me make this clear and say that I have no problem with people painting and sculpting inspiring images and figures. I know that everyone needs to make money and we all rely on our talents and abilities to feed our families. BUT, I HATE the idea of people using our faith and out seeking after good things as an easy way to profit.

Am I the only one that feels like this? Im also curious as to find out when our prophets started writing books for profit. Or do they? Im trying to be open minded about this stuff, so give me your .02! (See, even I am asking for your money!)

[Tarnished]

This is completely different than a minister making money off his congregation. In those situations the congregation is paying donations to the church which the minister is then using as his income.

As for our prophets and other leaders, very often, especially with the prophet and the first presidency they give up their income to serve as leaders of the church. I don't know how book sales go in regards to their income, but I don't think we should worry that they are getting rich off of their books.

As for marketing to LDS people, you really only see this happen in the Mormon Corridor (aka Utah and Idaho) outside of those states seeing a CTR ring in a Walmart is unheard of, or if you want to buy a Setters of Zarahemla game you have to special order it or find a rare LDS bookstore.

I personally think it is fine. It allows us as a religion to have things that we can relate to. We can play games that remind us of scripture stories, we can wear jewelry that helps us to remember what we should be doing. We can fill our homes with beautiful pictures that really touch on our religion and our beliefs. Sure someone else is making money off of it, but we are the ones buying it, we are the ones telling our friends where we got the new "Who's your hero?" book for our kids. If we don't like it then we don't have to buy it.

I have no problem with people making money off of a market that is available, as long as they are doing it legally and are not guilting people into buying the items I think it is just fine.

[pam]

First of all I don't see it as a negative thing at all. It's a market to provide LDS with good wholesome books, games, paintings and other art that might not be found elsewhere.

We are told to seek after good things. We are told to read good books. Do you really think that the GA's make a huge profit from the writing of their books? Think of what a small market they have. It's not like their books are hitting the New York best sellers lists. I'm sure the majority of them write them to provide uplifting information to members at large. Not with the idea of making a profit on them.

I have paintings done by LDS artists on the walls in my home. It's to invite the Spirit in. Should I be getting these for free? Absolutely not. I grew up with a man that has been commissioned by the Church on numerous occasions to paint paintings that could be used in the Ensign. He's done an entire Book of Mormon series. This has been his livelihood to support his family over the years. Has he done it entirely for the money? Nope. Many of his paintings have been done because of inspiration.

Why shouldn't there be coloring books and LDS games for children? They learn of the gospel while playing games and coloring.

I guess I don't totally understand your concern in this.

[mnn727]

Being Outsdie of Utah, I was happy to find I could order things that Utah People take for granted. When I first converted I had no idea there were LDS Bookstores, I was like a kid in a candy store when I found that out. To be able to get books written by and for LDS people is great. Deseret Book and others like it provide a service that is worth money to me.

Are LDS leaders getting rich off of these? I doubt it, the potential market is small, but I believe as the Bible says the worker is worthy of his hire. The F.P., the Twelve and the 70 can not have outside jobs, so if they write a book or 2 or 12 why shouldn't they be able to profit from it?

As far as people making: statues, rings, etc. if there were not a market for it they wouldn't be in business.

Should we take these books as scripture? Definatly not

As far as lots of people getting rich, there is exactly 1 LDS bookstore in the entire DFW area - over 7 million people in the area (there used to be 2 but the area couldn't support 2 LDS bookstores) so when you get outside of Utah LDS items are not exactly big business.)

The above examples are waaaaaaay different than a minister taking peoples tithing money and using it for big houses, fancy clothes, expensive cars, etc.

Edited June 18, 2010 by mnn727

[urloony]

Lots of our apostles, seventy, RS, Primary and even the First Presidency write books. Obviously they arent doing it for free. They are making money as well as the publishers.

Judging by the size of President Monson's "mansion," I think you may be onto something!

I live in CT, I would love to have a Deseret book around here. Instead the best we have is the local Christian Bookstore where I can buy copies of "Kingdom of the Cults," and pamphlets on "why my religion is right and yours is wrong."

Edited June 18, 2010 by urloony
typo

[TheMightyQuinn]

How rich are you imaging the leaders are getting from writing books for such a small audience of which only a tiny fraction will buy?

BUT, I HATE the idea of people using our faith and out seeking after good things as an easy way to profit.

Concerning the selling of gospel related items--the alternative means most items wouldn't exist.

Do you believe it is wrong to buy a painting of Christ for my home? Do you believe it is okay to make Batman and Superman toys but wrong to make Nephi and Moroni toys?

Why do people sell those things? Because people want them. No one has forced me to purchase an item I didn't want.

While I understand your feelings, I really think it's not an issue. I think it's a good thing to sell uplifting and wholesome items.

[justaname]

I am well aware that our leaders do their work on a voluntary basis. I understand that they give up their income to do so. Its pretty amazing that they are all willing to give up their careers for their callings.

I find it interesting that two of your responses both mentioned that the market was small, as if its not an issue because it IS small. Would you feel differently if it was in a large market?

Pam, if they are writing to provide uplifting information to the at large membership and not for profit, why not publish it through the church and make them as cheap as possible rather than use expensive publishers? Im sure the first answer to that question is because it would then be interpreted as scripture or as official church material. Ok, I get it. But how does one separate the words of a prophet publishing in the Ensign vs. publishing with a private publisher? Are the prophets' words cheapened because they are published by Seagull or another publisher?

I didnt grow up in Utah, though I do live here now. It wasnt until after my mission I moved here and saw what a crazy industry this is. I dont expect people to paint or sculpt for free. I dont think I really conveyed that message. I suppose all this stuff feels strange to me because it feels as though the products conjured up with the dollar in mind. It feels like every artist churns out as many pictures of Christ as possible, not because they were inspired by the image, but because they know that homegrown Mormons go nuts for that stuff. I can understand an artist being inspired by an image or two, but when their entire portfolio is marketed directly to the LDS folks, it feels too . . . manipulative? I dont know what word Im looking for. It just touches a nerve with me.

[MarginOfError]

I remember being on my mission in a poor area and coming across a HUGE Spanish style mansion. It was easily 7-8k sq. ft. whereas all the other homes in the area were 1k or less apartments or old, dilapidated homes. Come to find out, this large home was owned by the local minister. I suppose that was the first time it ever dawned on me that people get rich from religion. I have a real hard time with that concept. I used to think that stuff doesnt happen in our church, but little by little, Im recognizing the big money that is being made in our religion.

Well yeah. The Church takes in over $1 billion dollars in donations each week. That doesn't include business ventures. That's strictly tithing, fast offering, and other donations on the tithing slip. That all comes from members. If you extrapolate that, you can make the assumption that members of the Church earn a little less than $10 billion dollars per week (perhaps, say $750 million?) So yeah, there's a lot of money being made by the members of our Church. That isn't quite the same as saying that the clergy are making a lot of money at the expense of the members.

Each time I walk into a Seagull and Deseret Book, I feel a little bit bothered by how much money is being made by "selling the gospel". There are so many products that are sold to LDS members such as books, paintings, puzzles, scripture enhancers, figurines, sculptures etc. It just feels weird to think that people are using members of the church as a means to make money. I wanted to get some of your thoughts on a few thoughts about this stuff.

I might be more in agreement with you if there were any pressure coming from the Church to buy things from these stores. However, I've never felt any pressure to buy anything. Given that Deseret Book is a Church owned company, it's actually quite remarkable that there is no pressure to buy from that company. In fact, the Church goes to great lengths not to pressure people or confuse them. You can buy books from Deseret Book, but all of your manuals, curriculum, and supplies for officially sanctioned Church programs are published by Intellectual Reserve.

There are likely also tax reasons associated with the official publishing arm and the business publishing arm, but it's congruent with the Church's message that salvation is a no-purchase-required goal.

Deseret and Seagull Book, however, are for-profit organizations. Is it unethical to sell things that people are willing to buy because of their emotional connection to the Gospel? No--so long as they never advertise that their products are essential to involvement and activity in and coversion to the Gospel. I have yet to see these bookstores make such a claim.

Lots of our apostles, seventy, RS, Primary and even the First Presidency write books. Obviously they arent doing it for free. They are making money as well as the publishers. First question is, are we to take these books as scripture? Second, am I the only one that feels strange about our leaders making a dollar on sales of their books? I know people that treat these books as "must haves" and buy them all. Yes, I believe in capitalism, but . . . it just doesnt sit right with me. Its hard to pinpoint. What are the motives behind writing these books? Are they attempting to make a dollar, supplement the scriptures, or are so pure that they are simply trying to make the world a better place?

No, we do not take these books as scripture. Even if they are absolutely true, we do not take them as scripture. In the strictest sense, the only books we take as scripture are those that are accepted in the official canon of the Church (the standard works). In a more loose definition, we may accept inspired words of the prophets in official Church publications. But we should never accept a book published and available only for profit as scripture. That seems to be a profound conflict of interests.

(What I just said gets a little dicey and may need some revision based on the Doubleday edition of the Book of Mormon, which retails for around $20. But your typical Book of Mormon can still be obtained very cheap, often for free if you use the right angle. I'm trusting most will listen to what I mean and get too bogged down in literalism with my words).

AS for the motives for writing the books, it's probably a combination of a sincere desire to expound upon scripture, share insight, uplift others, and supplement the retirement income they've been living off of. Yes, I do believe it's possible to both inspire and make a buck (hello, motivational speaker). But again, the Church is very careful not to confuse members about these books. I've never, ever heard an Apostle quote his own book, or recommend members buy his book, or anything of the sort. Nor do they endorse each others' books. Unfortunately, we as members often push these books in a way that makes it seem like we've almost lifted them to canonized status (Mormon Doctrine and The Miracle of Forgiveness are two examples that come to mind). But that was the work of members and not of the Church.

There are others that are making money off of selling figurines of heroes of the scriptures. There are coloring books, Book of Mormon bingo, card games, Book of Mormon simplified books, stickers, etc. For some reason I have a hard time envisioning Captain Moroni even THINKING about marketing the Title of Liberty, or King Benjamin selling additional thoughts about his sermon, or Ammon selling little replica swords.

Most of this I consider just plain silly. But some parents have a desire to immerse their children and themselves in all things Mormon all the time. I don't really blame anyone for satisfying that need, and I don't think it's immoral to provide those. In some ways, they can even be very beneficial to teaching children about the stories in the scriptures and in history. I just happen to be of the persuasion that I can use GI Joe action figures to reenact the Ammon stories just as well as I could with an Ammon action figure.

But I do see your point, especially in this area. I tend to avoid buying things such as these because I think they are overly silly. To me it feels like trying to make a market of "I want all the other things the rest of society has, but I want a mormonized version." A little bit like saying "frick" and "oh my heck." It just annoys me.

We have people that paint tons of pictures of Christ, images of the scriptures, or of prophets and church history scenes. We have sculptures too. Lots of them. Let me make this clear and say that I have no problem with people painting and sculpting inspiring images and figures. I know that everyone needs to make money and we all rely on our talents and abilities to feed our families. BUT, I HATE the idea of people using our faith and out seeking after good things as an easy way to profit.

This part I actually have no problem with at all. I think it's wonderful that people are able to sell art, and I wish they could sell more. I hope the artists are feeling fulfilled in what they do. And I even buy some of the art and the figurines (we're suckers for some of the willow tree figurines).

But keep this in mind...artists don't make a lot of money. I home taught a guy who was in art school for a while, and he told me a story about a woman who did pottery. She would make what were largely considered fantastic pieces of pottery, but had a very hard time selling her work because the average consumer wasn't interested in her art. One day, while displaying some of her art at a craft show, she also had on her table about a half dozen small vases that she sold for $10 a piece. They were a super simple thing that she could whip out dozens of in a day. Her six little vases sold rapidly, while only a couple of her other pieces sold. She learned that if she spent a day here and there just making the little vases, she could sell enough of those easily enough to keep her finances where she could afford to devote time to the art that truly interested her. So before you put down the artists for making a buck on their paintings and sculptures, remember that they may do it as a means to pursuing their own personal artistic goals.

Am I the only one that feels like this? Im also curious as to find out when our prophets started writing books for profit. Or do they? Im trying to be open minded about this stuff, so give me your .02! (See, even I am asking for your money!)

I do understand how you feel, and on some points strongly agree with you. On other points, I'm not so concerned. I will say this though...I don't believe that the owners of Seagull or Deseret are really out to nickle and dime anyone. I truly do believe that they envision a store at which people can find Gospel-oriented materials to enrich their lives through Gospel study, art, music, literature, culture, and yes, even toys. I think some of those are less important than others. For instance, they may be selling toys as a way to make the profit margins they need to sell books that might really enrich a person's understanding of the Gospel.

My advice would be this: If you feel like there's a product in the store that has been brought in to "make a buck off the gospel" don't buy it. If you think there are things being sold that are worth purchasing, buy those. I know it's a little against how you feel, but let your money do the talking.

[Hemidakota]

I am glad urloony beat me to the punch...thanks brother. It does illustrate a point here.

I posted about one of our members (UC at Irvine) was doing a research on how much LDS brethren and sisters make on book royalties, what she gathered, it wasn't very much income to live on. Unlike, other members, write fictional novels, may make millions. The days of writing gospel book is completely change these days versus the 70's and 80s.

[justaname]

Judging by the size of President Monson's "mansion," I think you may be onto something!

I live in CT, I would love to have a Deseret book around here. Instead the best we have is the local Christian Bookstore where I can buy copies of "Kingdom of the Cults," and pamphlets on "why my religion is right and yours is wrong."

Cool link. Nice sarcasm. Do I think they are making money hand over fist? Not really. I also dont think the size of a home is always reflective of the income of a family either. My grandfather is a millionaire and lives in a tiny home from the 40's. My neighbor has a 5k sq ft. home and cant pay his bills.

[pam]

Pam, if they are writing to provide uplifting information to the at large membership and not for profit, why not publish it through the church and make them as cheap as possible rather than use expensive publishers? Im sure the first answer to that question is because it would then be interpreted as scripture or as official church material. Ok, I get it. But how does one separate the words of a prophet publishing in the Ensign vs. publishing with a private publisher? Are the prophets' words cheapened because they are published by Seagull or another publisher?

Are you aware that Deseret Book is owned by Deseret Management Corporation which is owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

In arguing whether people should market strictly to LDS perhaps the Church then should get out of the myriad of other businesses they are in as well. It's the business side to the Church.

[justaname]

Margin, great response! I appreciate your views and insight into the topic. I appreciate the way you come across as genuine and non-combative. I notice that in many of your posts.

Im curious about the first portion of your response though, about us taking in over a billion a week. Can you corroborate your statement? I have held the finance clerk position in my ward and have always felt that church financial data is held strictly confidential. What is your source other than your own assumption?

[justaname]

Are you aware that Deseret Book is owned by Deseret Management Corporation which is owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

In arguing whether people should market strictly to LDS perhaps the Church then should get out of the myriad of other businesses they are in as well. It's the business side to the Church.

Yes, I am aware.

[justaname]

But keep this in mind...artists don't make a lot of money.

Will someone please find a picture of Greg Olsen's, Del Parson's, or Liz Swindle's homes?

[mnn727]

I find it interesting that two of your responses both mentioned that the market was small, as if its not an issue because it IS small. Would you feel differently if it was in a large market?

.

No, it would make no difference, I brought it up because you made it sound like they were getting rich off of these books and I was pointing out that they could not be getting rich. I wouldn't care if they did get rich off of them- I'm not the one having the problem with it.

[pam]

Will someone please find a picture of Greg Olsen's, Del Parson's, or Liz Swindle's homes?

I have no idea what their homes look like or how modest or fancy they are. I enjoy their paintings especially Liz Lemon Swindles. They bring a lot of joy and I find peace when looking at her paintings. I own 2 of them. It matters not to me if she is making a boat load of money or not. She is using her talent to bring joy to others. The fact that I can stand in front of one of her paintings and see the love in Christ' eyes is what it's all about for me. The thought they might be capitalizing on that fact that I am LDS and purchased these items never once crossed my mind.

There is a market for LDS things. To me no different than the market for those that like Harry Potter or the Twilight series and purchase items because of their like for these things.

[Hemidakota]

Will someone please find a picture of Greg Olsen's, Del Parson's, or Liz Swindle's homes?

Side note: two of his more well-known paintings are The Lord Jesus Christ, commissioned by the L.D.S. Church in 1983 of which millions of copies have been distributed world wide and a portrait of Joseph Smith, completed in conjunction with the P.B.S. television special.

Link: Del Parson - Marriott Library - The University of Utah

Notice how many copies were made? How much in royalties would he received for each of the two famous paintings?

Del Parson article: Meridian Magazine :: Arts: Del Parson: Painting the Savior’s Love

Del lives in Cedar City Utah...

Edited June 18, 2010 by Hemidakota

[MarginOfError]

Margin, great response! I appreciate your views and insight into the topic. I appreciate the way you come across as genuine and non-combative. I notice that in many of your posts.

Im curious about the first portion of your response though, about us taking in over a billion a week. Can you corroborate your statement? I have held the finance clerk position in my ward and have always felt that church financial data is held strictly confidential. What is your source other than your own assumption?

I seem to recall reading an article in TIME several years ago. I keep finding references to TIME setting Church assets as $30 billion, but I can't find the statement about income from tithes and offerings. I may have to revise my statement.

[Hemidakota]

I seem to recall reading an article in TIME several years ago. I keep finding references to TIME setting Church assets as $30 billion, but I can't find the statement about income from tithes and offerings. I may have to revise my statement.

A lot higher than that MOE.... But remember with any assets, having land, building, miscellaneous church holdings, non-church related church businesses investments, there is are liabilities payouts and maintenance the church has annually to pay for.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Moksha]

The Church is well run and has a knack for making money, from Deseret Book to Deseret Industries. If something is a money drain like Beneficial Life, it is jettisoned. That way the Church has money for its various projects.

[Hemidakota]

It can be a WHITE ELEPHANT in bad times.

[Moksha]

It can be a WHITE ELEPHANT in bad times.

Ganesha?

:)

[Hemidakota]

I seem to recall reading an article in TIME several years ago. I keep finding references to TIME setting Church assets as $30 billion, but I can't find the statement about income from tithes and offerings. I may have to revise my statement.

To add for others who do not understand the nature of the beast. Other countries accounting practices may differ from the US. The US by law, for non-charitable business, do have not have to report publicly. Even in General Conference, the church does not report any financial numbers.

Other countries outside of the US, the church only reports their holdings within the country. A good example is England. England does not have any provisions that protect non-charitable businesses from not reporting if the income is larger than 10,000 pounds (English currency). Most of them will use an outside accounting agency to show their books. In this case, the church uses a well known business in London. To see a sample report by the accounting agency and the church for this nation, see the link below;

2008 Report: http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/ScannedAccounts/Ends51%5C0000242451_ac_20081231_e_c.pdf

Edited June 18, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

Ganesha?

:)

No...to pinkish.

[Suzie]

Joseph F. Smith gave all the royalties of one his books to LDS Genealogical Society and LeGrand Richards didn't accept any royalties from one his famous books. The GA have the choice of giving it to charity, keep the money or simply reject it. We don't know what they do with their earnings, so it's a little unfair to speculate that the only possibility is that they are keeping it.