Young Men's Leader is a bad influence

[raycatcher]

Looking for advice on how to handle this situation.

I have 2 sons - one is a Deacon and one is a Priest. I am the Young Men's Secretary. There is another leader (we'll call him "John") who is very active in the Young Men's activities. He attends scouting trips, Youth Conference, fundraisers, and many other activities. However, my sons are telling me about some of the things that he says and does that I find disturbing.

A couple months ago, we had a fundraising activity where we sold candy bars and aerated lawns. John drove several of the Deacons around selling the candy bars. My son told me of several times where John would make comments such as "Hey, there's some fat people at this house. They'll buy some candy". Plus there were derogatory comments aimed at those who did not buy the candy (not stated to the people, but in front of the Deacons). I drove some of the boys home, where they recanted this story, and many of them found John very funny. I let this one go.

Last week, my older son was at Youth Conference. "John" was in attendance as well. Evidently, there was a controversy between one of the boys in our Ward and another from another Ward in the Stake. John intervened and pulled aside several of the boys from our Ward, including my son. He asked them several times if they knew why the other boy was acting so badly, and they did not know how to answer. He finally said, "He's acting that way because he is BLACK!" Now my son knew that this was not appropriate and let me know about it. When I sat in on Teacher's Quorum the following Sunday, the story was recounted by the boys, who again thought it was very funny. I brought it up to one of the Bishopric counselors, because my older son will be attending High Adventure camp with him and with John this coming week. The counselor told me he would "monitor the situation" and ensure that the setting remained appropriate and spiritual.

While I am not terribly concerned that my son will be influenced by him (he knows that this guy is a jerk and does not find him funny), I AM concerned about his influence on the other boys. He seems to say these types of things to get a laugh from the boys, and it often works. If he is a bigot and a racist, that is sad but I suppose that is his business, but he has no right to say such things around the youth and is clearly a bad influence. While I am trying to hold back a bit in this post, I am honestly outraged by this. I was very close to pulling my son from the High Adventure camp because I did not want him further exposed to this guy, but he seems clear on what is right and I did not want to punish him in any way.

I'm not sure if I should wait this out, confront "John" myself, or raise the issue with the Bishop. Has anyone else been in a similar situation? How is this best handled?

Edited June 22, 2010 by raycatcher
typo

[Wingnut]

Your son sounds like he is well-grounded, and not afraid to appropriately question those in authority. This is good. For now, don't do anything. You've alerted the bishopric counselor, who will be actively paying attention to John's behavior and conversation this week. After High Adventure is over, meet with him again. Discuss further concerns with him, and ask if he observed the behaviors that concern you. Don't go to the bishop until after you've had a chance to speak with the counselor again. If the counselor observes and.or heard things at High Adventure that are concerning to him, he will no doubt address it in bishopric meeting.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I personally would've gone straight to the Young Men's leader and shared my concerns with him privately. Share my thoughts about the appropriateness of the comments, influence on the boys, etcetera. That way I'm not using up higher leaders' time, I know for sure that the message gets to this YM leader, I can see his reaction, and I know he's been spoken to about it.

If this YM leader is NOT the YM president, but a counselor, and the behavior continues, I'd go to the YM President next. I'd already be "armed" with the fact that I'd spoken to this YM leader privately, and saw no change. This might motivate the YM President to do something since the problem is now appearing chronic.

And if the behavior continued, I'd then go to the Bishop's Counselor over YM to it.

The way you've handled it so far, the issue is in the hands of the Bishop's Counselor, no action is taken, and you're still disturbed by it. Further, it appears the Counselor in the Bishopric isn't going to do anything immediately. Plus, YM is only one auxiliary on this Counselor's radar, so it's faded in with all of this other responsiblities.

Best deal with issues as close to the source possible unless there's some powerful reason not to do so.

Going forward, I'd use cautious judgment. If it happens again, I might follow up with the Bishop's Counselor since you've put the ball into that court. If there is no action after a reasonable time, and the Bishop's Counselor hasn't spoken to the leader about it, I'd tell the Bishop's Counselor I'm going to have a gentle conversation with the YM leader myself. See what the couselor in the Bishopric says to this ....so, you would be putting a bit of pressure on the bishop's counselor to motivate him to action.

Edited June 22, 2010 by mormonmusic

[pam]

And if the behavior continued, I'd then go to the Bishop's Counselor over YM to it.

Is there a counselor over YM as I guess I've always associated YM with Aaronic Priesthood which the Bishop is over.

[raycatcher]

The way you've handled it so far, the issue is out of your hands and you're still disturbed by it. Further, it appears the Counselor in the Bishopric isn't going to do anything immediately. Plus, YM is only one auxiliary on this Counselor's radar, so it's faded in with all of this other responsibilities.

Best deal with issues as close to the source possible unless there's some powerful reason not to do so.

Thanks for the insight. Unfortunately, I had no opportunity to speak to "John" yet. There was only 1 day between the return from Youth Conference and the departure to High Adventure (poor planning), and I have not seen him yet. I would prefer to speak about this in person rather than over the phone. I approached the Bishopric Counselor for two reasons: 1. I have a personal friendship with him, and 2. He is going on the High Adventure as well, so I know this will be "on his radar" - certainly during this week, anyway.

[MarginOfError]

Is there a counselor over YM as I guess I've always associated YM with Aaronic Priesthood which the Bishop is over.

Depends on the ward. Some wards will have a counselor deal with the administrative part of the YM organization while the bishop focuses specifically on the youth. Others have the bishop do the entire thing. But about the only requirements I can remember for the handbooks (I'm not opening them up right now) are that the bishop should regularly attend the priests' quorum meetings and interview all youth at least annually.

[pam]

Thanks MOE, I really didn't know as I've never been a YM or had the Aaronic Priesthood or been a Bishop. hahaha

[Dravin]

Thanks MOE, I really didn't know as I've never been a YM or had the Aaronic Priesthood or been a Bishop. hahaha

And you haven't even played one on TV. The good news if you can now play one on Youtube!

/me goes rummaging for an old suit and a fake beard for Pam.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Dravin

[applepansy]

There were times as my boys were growing up that a leader would be inappropriate (mostly bad language) with the YM. Neither my husband nor I were tolerant of inappropriate behavior or language. While my husband is more tactful at addressing these things than I am, we both said something directly to the person involved before talking to the YM leadership or Bishop.

D&C 88 And if thy brother or sister offend thee, thou shalt take him or her between him or her and thee alone; and if he or she confess thou shalt be reconciled.

89 And if he or she confess not thou shalt deliver him or her up unto the church, not to the members, but to the elders. And it shall be done in a meeting, and that not before the world.

Edited June 22, 2010 by applepansy
typo

[raycatcher]

There were times as my boys were growing up that a leader would be inappropriate (mostly bad language) with the YM. Neither my husband nor I were tolerant of inappropriate behavior or language. While my husband is more tactful at addressing these things than I am, we both said something directly to the person involved before talking to the YM leadership or Bishop.

D&C 88 And if thy brother or sister offend thee, thou shalt take him or her between him or her and thee alone; and if he or she confess thou shalt be reconciled.

89 And if he or she confess not thou shalt deliver him or her up unto the church, not to the members, but to the elders. And it shall be done in a meeting, and that not before the world.

Thanks for the comments, and for the applicable scripture. For the most part, I agree, and I plan to take it up with "John" when they return from High Adventure. However, I still feel like it was appropriate to bring it up with the Bishopric member. This is not simply a case of him offending ME by his actions, or offending my son. He is in a position of influence over these young men, and is spreading his bigoted beliefs. As a member of the YM Presidency, I have a responsibility to these young men and to their parents. Since he is going to be in close contact with all the boys during this week's High Adventure, I wanted another leader who would be present to monitor his communications and make sure the boys are not exposed to anything they should not be.

[Gwen]

some will find this a bad suggestion but....

i would also talk to my son about how to handle such situations. as a youth i would not have hesitated to make my own comment there to his face in front of the other kids about the black comment and how inappropriate it was. not rude or offensive but clear and not putting up with it, then i would go hang out with the kid the comments were about. teach him to be a leader not a follower, even if the group contains adults.

my stepson and a couple other ym from our branch went to scout camp last yr and the "leaders" (older scouts) that were supposed to be teaching a particular class were goofing off and teasing the younger boys. i was thrilled to hear our 3 ym from our branch stepped up and told them to cut it out, they then took over the class and made sure things were done and the younger boys were safe.

when i was in yw's as laurel class pres i didn't hesitate to correct the girls when there was an issue with the entire group and them making fun of another girl.

the skill of being able to look a superior in the eye and tell them when they are wrong is a very valuable thing to learn.

[raycatcher]

i would also talk to my son about how to handle such situations. as a youth i would not have hesitated to make my own comment there to his face in front of the other kids about the black comment and how inappropriate it was. not rude or offensive but clear and not putting up with it, then i would go hang out with the kid the comments were about. teach him to be a leader not a follower, even if the group contains adults.

when i was in yw's as laurel class pres i didn't hesitate to correct the girls when there was an issue with the entire group and them making fun of another girl.

the skill of being able to look a superior in the eye and tell them when they are wrong is a very valuable thing to learn.

100% agree, Gwen! I love to see my kids (or any kids) stick up for someone who is being bullied or picked on. Strength of character is certainly a valuable skill and one that is sometimes difficult to teach when it comes to adults. You don't want your kid to be the smart-alek who questions adults about everything and wants to argue about trivial things or matters of opinion. But when it comes to values, you want them to stand like a rock and not waver, even in the face of peer pressure or adults who are just plain wrong. I think if they are taught right, it will come with maturity. The tough part is that we teach them to respect adults and follow the examples of their leaders. We need to also teach them that leaders are human and will sometimes be wrong.

[NeuroTypical]

"Hey, there's some fat people at this house. They'll buy some candy".

...

He finally said, "He's acting that way because he is BLACK!"

Those two examples are worthy of bringing to the bishopric's attention.

I brought it up to one of the Bishopric counselors, because my older son will be attending High Adventure camp with him and with John this coming week. The counselor told me he would "monitor the situation" and ensure that the setting remained appropriate and spiritual.

You took appropriate action.

While I am not terribly concerned that my son will be influenced by him (he knows that this guy is a jerk and does not find him funny), I AM concerned about his influence on the other boys.

And here is where you're tempted to grab some stewardship that isn't yours. Unless you get called to the YM program in some capacity, let that part of it go. If you hear more, then talk to the Bishop directly.

Has anyone else been in a similar situation? How is this best handled?

Oh yeah. I was exec sec in the Bishopric for 5 years. Stuff like this comes up all the time. It really does. Interesting matters I watched the brethren grapple with:

* Bro so-and-so seems a bit too 'huggy' at the mutual activities.

* Varsity coach whatsisface gets waay too physical in an altercation between two boys, siding with his son, and almost gets himself arrested.

* Folks getting all upset and offended over someone and threatening to pull their kids from activities (or church entirely), unless the bishopric does [insert armchair quarterbacking here]. Some of the offenses are very understandable, some appear to be big overreactions from hypersensitive mommies and daddies.

How is this best handled? By letting the Bishopric do it's job. They do discuss such things, and prayerfully consider these matters, inviting the spirit to influence them as they search for the right decisions. Sometimes, the spirit seems to overrule common sense, and nobody quite understands why for a while, then it works out.

You have stewardship over your kids. If they understand racists and bigots exist and are not swayed by encountering one trying to be funny, then kudos to you, dad. You're raising good boys. Part of kids growing up, is learning how to deal with various kinds of unsavory characters.

LM

[raycatcher]

And here is where you're tempted to grab some stewardship that isn't yours. Unless you get called to the YM program in some capacity, let that part of it go. If you hear more, then talk to the Bishop directly.

I am the Secretary in the Young Men's Presidency. This is why I said I feel some responsibility for these young men.

Thanks for your insight and your advice.

[NeuroTypical]

I missed that, Ray. Good on ya then!

[Just_A_Guy]

Not too long ago, President Hinckley gave a talk saying something to the effect that racism is incompatible with being a priesthood holder.

I'd suggest you dig out that talk and, directly or indirectly, make sure this guy is aware of it.

Update: Here's the talk.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[pam]

Anyone that knows me well knows I don't tolerate racist comments at all. I would not have held back. Some might say there is a time and a place for everything. In this case I would disagree. There is never a time or a place for these kinds of comments.

[Moksha]

That is hard on some boys when the leader is displaying such attitudes. I remember back when I was a young guy in the teacher's quorum, the leader was spouting some overtly racist stuff during the meeting. It offended my sensibilities as to what I thought should have been said. I really didn't know what to do and I didn't want to put the other boy's in the position of defending racism and attacking me, so I simply announced that I did not have to listen to that and walked out.

Since then, there has been both a policy change and a major attitudinal shift in the Church in this regard. That youth leader of today is clearly of of step with Church leaders of 2010.

[sodapop]

I once attended a youth camping trip wherein one of the leaders(someone old enough and who have gone to a mission) made an epic fail presentation. During the presentation, he was imitating a local actress in a scene of being unwillingly forced to copulate. Weird I know...and the other adults thought it was very funny.

[skippy740]

sodapop,

Why are you commenting on old posts? This one is over a year old.

[Iggy]

sodapop,

Why are you commenting on old posts? This one is over a year old.

Why shouldn't he?

For heavens sake- if the moderators on this forum do not want members to post to old threads, then delete them BEFORE they get posted on. I haven't read this one before- doesn't matter to me that it is over a year old. The remarks and opinions are still appropriate.

This is the only forum I have been on where the moderators get in a tizzy over people posting to old threads.

Now watch, I'll get disciplined or banned because I dare to question a moderator!

[Guest Sachi001]

First as ES in a Bishopric. Our Stake President has reiterated church safety procedures.

Your YM Presidency should know that it's always 2 PH with 2 Youth at all times. Especially when alone and driving around is not permitted. Fast offerings included.

Second- Wrong place to seek advice. Counsel in spiritual concerns is a matter of Bishopric concern and you should meet with him ASAP.

[Guest saintish]

I know this is an old post but as someone who has had trouble with the people in leadership positions I thought I would share my 2 cents.

Christ has told us how to handle these situations.

15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

MAT. 18:15-17

Go to him privately first. If that doesn’t work, go to the YM’s presidency. If that still doesn’t work, take it to the ward council. If all that fails, there isn’t anything you can do but pray that he changes.