converts leaving the church

[Cassiopeia]

That's where I got my thoughts about biting tongues.

It was my opinion and my opinion only. Just because I might disagree on a certain part of your statement in no way means you have to listen to me. I just find it hypocritical that you spout off about being able to express opinion yet you criticize someone else for the same thing.

Honestly, there are a lot of people I'd like to put on ignore. But doing that would mean that I can't affectively do the job as moderator that I am paid the big bucks to do on this site.

Fair enough. All I'm asking is that people not use sarcasm when they do disagree. That's a personal attack.

I'm quite happy to discuss opposing points of view. I learn that way.

But what I did was actually stand up for myself, retain my boundaries and from her visit today, I've got her respect and she mine and our devotion to each other as sisters is clearly greater than before. A good relationship, church or otherwise has to be able to bear up under someone speaking honestly and respectfully about their needs.

[Moksha]

Truth.

Don't forget to add Justice and the American Way.

[Intrigued]

The retention rate in the LDS Church is very-very low. I would expect it's low in every Church though. I was told by more than one missionary that retention rate is below 50% over either 3 or 5 years (I can't remember the amount). I've seen it myself a number of times.. once the honey moon is over you realize that the LDS Church is really no different than any other institution and that's when real faith becomes mandatory or they bail out.

I can't fault them for it. They're just searching for truth. I'm sympathetic really.. cause aren't we all still searching for the truth?

Edited August 7, 2010 by Intrigued

[Maya]

I am a convert and Kimko I know how that feels. My rescue was my testimony... so far so good. I remember when I become a member I relly mised the misionaries, but understood that they were needed elsewhere. My friend drove me to the church and then she just run to her tasks and there I was standing confused and alone in the hall.... well not compeletely alone and I knew where I was to go for the first hour. But I did feel alona especiallyas she was in primary... I hardly ever saw her... but HEY I did nto join because of her but because of truth!

Some anti-Mormons use this info to refute .... They take hols on ANYTHING believe me and even better if theycan push it a bit further...

Do you think it's true that many converts leave, and if so why? I really wish they would not leave the church if they have to so be inactive but not resighn. I am following a youg person fighting back to the church after a rash out. She has a testimony, but those anties....

It takes a lot to change one's religion; why would one go through all of that just to leave the Church? Good question.

America-focused the Church I dont see much change... I only hope that the americans begin to notice that the fantastic, beautiful world and its people dont end by the american border.

Why would an African or Latin American want to be a Mormon? Because LDS has the truth.

Becoming protestant... it is MUCH easier to be a protestant everything is allowed, even devorce and.....

do you think people with such backgrounds and without connections to the US and the pioneer history are more likely to revert after conversion? NO Truth is the same everywhere.

Do you see the Mormonism changing with so many members outside of the US? NO It changes if the profet is told by God to change it. I do hope peple change and that there will be more patriotism from ALL countries involved.

[Melissa569]

Not meaning to offend anybody, because its my church too-- But I think there are a few reasons why people leave the church, and I'll be very frank about them:

1-- Pressure to always be doing more callings and moving up in the church. People are busy. They have lives and things they have to do outside the church too, and dreams they want to acomplish. Some of the steps toward those dreams are not taken through the church-- not because the dreams are bad, but because maybe the church doesn't have influence in all circles? But people often get the old guilt trip thrown at them of, "How could you be too busy for god?" Well... That's the wrong way of looking at it. Nobody can avoid God, because he is with you everywhere you go! :) But you CAN be too busy to do something a bishop or a member of the church wants you to do.... So that's why you keep God in your mind and heart, and mentally consult with him in everythng you say and do, all day long. In this way, his will is always going to have influence over your actions, no matter where you are or what you're doing. Church callings aren't the only way to do god's bidding.

Yes, you can go to church and get support from other godly people-- that's fine. But you can't just isolate yourself from the world outside the church. At some point, you have to develop the strength to make your own stand as a soul, and face the world outside the church, without letting it shake your faith. Its almost impossible to get some members of the church to accept that, though. This tends to frustrate people and drive them away.

2-- Ideas fairly unique to the LDS church, like "becomming a god when you die", or "the gold plates", or "you have to be sealed in an LDS temple in order to be with god, or with your family members in heaven", etc., etc., etc. None of these things are taught in other religions, and they can be a lot to swallow.

3--Being the only LDS member in your family. When the rest of your family is not LDS, and they get mad at you when you try to convert them-- that can leave a person with a rather depressing feeling that the church wasn't geared toward "single converts". But rather "entire families". Often you see most of the leading members in a ward brag about being "3rd, 4th, or 5th generation" in the church, etc. If that's not the case for you, it makes you feel left out. And a person may not like being in a religion that makes them worry about not being with their family in heaven. So people tend to turn their backs on all that, and go in search of something less "exclusive". Something more centered around "believing in god, the bible, and being a good person", and not so much about the historical manifestation of a specific church, or its dogma.

I myself particularly struggle with #3. I've only ever regularly attended the LDS church, but much of the time, I feel very excluded in it. Its starting to look like ALL churches and all religions are more about glorifying their own dogma, history and structure in the eyes of man-- instead of focusing on god. That really disturbs me, and I get the feeling that god's not too happy about it either.

I would never turn my back on god or Jesus. But I've dismissed many specific churches as "too self-righteous" to lead anybody in the right direction. There is a BIG difference between god, and a church. Churches are run by humans. Humans can choose to listen to god, or choose to ignore him. I would never trust any other human to ALWAYS listen to god, and never distort his truth in any way. I would only trust myself to decipher the meaning of his words. Sure, I'll listen to others' opinions, but I will NEVER vow to blindly trust and follow any human, under all circumstances. Not even if its a "prophet". Because a prophet may mean well, but he or she is still a human.

Edited August 15, 2010 by Melissa569

[bytebear]

I will agree that some people leave because of the points you mention in #2, but I also think it's because they don't understand LDS doctrine correctly. For example. marriage is not a requirement to be with God. and we don't become a god, we inherit all that God has and become as God is. And this is founded in Biblical verse (almost a direct quote, in fact). It is sad that people become dissuaded from the church based on lies from outside forces.

[ADoyle90815]

I would think that there are some converts who joined too soon before they really believed, often from pressure by members, whether they were the missionaries, friends, or a member spouse or boyfriend/girlfriend threatening to leave them if they didn't join.

Other churches require several months to a year of classes, as well as regular attendance of services before they'll allow a potential convert to join. They also do what they can to make sure that the person is joining out of their own freedom to choose, and not because anyone is pressuring them to join.

[Bruce_MacKay]

Friends,

I'm new to this website, and this is my first post here...so, please, bear with me.

I think we've read much here already - and had some object lessons - on-topic: why do people leave the Church?

I'm currently serving as a bishop, and suspect that my experiences are roughly applicable to the Church as a whole. With that as foundation,

1) The single largest reason I've seen for people to leave (whether recently baptized or not) is a lack of a feeling of belonging. Whether we speak of a recent convert for whom HT and/or VT is not happening; a person trying to return to activity where other members simply shun the returnee, or an otherwise active member who becomes the topic of unhappy conversation by others, the result is the same: in a ward/branch full of people, they somehow feel "alone". That is not what Father intended, nor is it how we are to treat people. As Father's children, we are to learn how to get along, and to benefit one from another. That's what families do, and we're all part of the same family.

2) I am saddened by those who hold callings, but will not fulfill them. I'm awed by those who have busy lives, fulfill callings as well as taking care of their families, and seek more service opportunities. I respect those who, in an interview, say that they'll accept the call, but feel impressed to share information from their personal life that makes clear the call is not for them at that time of their life. I've tried to learn how to conduct interviews so that I get that latter bit of information BEFORE a call is extended, and then - listening to/for the Spirit - decide whether or not to move forward with the call.

3) We sometimes receive callings to help us grow, and frequently we are NOT in the best position to determine what kind/whether growth is appropriate. I am acutely conscious of the impact I can have by picking up the phone and asking to meet with a member; I work hard to gain and keep the companionship of the Spirit so that I know what Father has in mind for a member at that stage of that member's life.

4) We all have a responsibility to help one another, irrespective of the calls we hold. We are to be family - and families help one another.

My experience so far tells me that those new to the Kingdom who are loved, respected, and supported tend not to leave - no matter whether their baptism is close to, or decades away from, their conversion.

And I know that my experiences are not unique - Elder Jay Jensen has told us that our stake has the highest retention rate of any stake in North America Northeast.

We can all help keep Father's children - if they want to stay. If we love them, care for them, and support them, they tend to want to stay.

[dahlia]

Thanks everyone for this discussion. Like some here, I also think that some people may convert too quickly. I've read missionary stories about quick baptisms and wondered if they were well-advised. I'm sure some people will say that the Spirit moved these people and that there's no harm in getting baptized quickly, but I have to think that the Spirit also wants us to think and consider what we are doing and why and not move too quickly based on emotion and current enthusiasm.

[Finrock]

Good afternoon kimiko! It is a pleasure to meet you. :)

As a recent convert, I've felt and observed that a lot of new members are left hanging once baptism and confirmation have been completed. You go from constant contact with at least the missionaries to basically nothing. It's like, "Yay! You're baptized; it's such a blessing," and that's it... At least that is how it was for me.

I believe the experience you have had is one of the main reasons why new converts at least leave the church. This is been a big concern for the leaders of the church for many years. Over and over again you hear the counsel from the prophets that all new converts need a friend, a calling, and teaching from the scriptures. I've seen it often myself how new members are fellowshipped and supported up until their baptism and it seems that after baptism they are forgotten. It is really sad and discouraging at times, although much of the reason I believe that this happens is not because people are bad, but because they don't fully understand the needs of most new converts. One thing I'll always remember that my older brother taught me on my mission and it set the stage for my missionary efforts, is to be a friend first and forever. Fellowshipping shouldn't just be about getting a person baptized. It should be genuine and real so that a person has a true friend who is genuinely concerned for them and wants them to be happy and strong in the gospel. This is what it takes. Too often I've witnessed fellowshipping being treated as some sort of task that has an end point. True friendship doesn't end after baptism and that is the dreadful mistake that happens too often. This can leave the new convert feeling betrayed, lonely, and exiled.

As a Church I think we need to just be more cognizant of how a new member might feel. Like I mentioned earlier, I don't think people are being malicious or mean, it's just a lack of understanding what a new convert is experiencing. On the other hand, it is a lovely and wonderful thing to see a new convert come in to the Church and they have true friends who take over when the missionaries leave and make sure the new member has all of the support they need. It truly should be for the new member a feeling of coming in to a loving and caring family. Heavenly Father wants us to "[t]hink of [our] brethren like unto [ourselves], and be familiar with all..." (Jacob 2:17). To me being "familiar with all" means to put away haughtiness and pride and treat all people as if they were a member of your immediate family.

Kind Regards,

Finrock

[jayanna]

We can all help keep Father's children - if they want to stay. If we love them, care for them, and support them, they tend to want to stay.

Bishop MacKay, I would like to thank you for your service and for taking time to take part in this thread. My hubby is a 2nd couns. and is snoring, exhausted from his tasks, so I'm sure you must be at least as challenged as he. I know the kind of hours that you put in caring for the sheep.

Since I was not loved or cared for in this way when I joined, I would like to say how I stayed...for all those who are not feeling loved or cared for right now...

I know that being a faithful follower of Jesus Christ has made me a better mom, and a better wife. My life is better. I feel the love that my Savior has for me personally.

I know that there is an adversary out there that does not want me to have these things. I know that he wants me to take offense, be selfish, and want bad things so that he can stop me. I am fully aware that the battle in Heaven has moved to the Earth. So, when these things come up, I do my best to remember who it comes from, and squash it. I do this by scripture study, temple attendance, prayer, fasting, forgiving others, serving and sometimes all I have time for is singing a hymn.

Mostly, I stay and work, and take care of things, so my hubby can work, because I love my Savior in return, and I want others to feel that love through me. I don't want anyone to go through the hardships that my hubby and I did when converting to the true gospel...I will do my best to overcome the adversary and share what I have with others.

Rember, He said Shine a Light, not point a finger

Charity NEVER faileth.

[Intrigued]

I would think that there are some converts who joined too soon before they really believed, often from pressure by members, whether they were the missionaries, friends, or a member spouse or boyfriend/girlfriend threatening to leave them if they didn't join.

Other churches require several months to a year of classes, as well as regular attendance of services before they'll allow a potential convert to join. They also do what they can to make sure that the person is joining out of their own freedom to choose, and not because anyone is pressuring them to join.

I think that quite often.. the missionaries form strong friendships with nonmembers. Those strong friendships lead to the nonmember.. becoming a member. Sometimes the missionaries can be kinda pushy and the nonmember doesn't want to hurt the feelings of their new friends.

[FunkyTown]

We can all help keep Father's children - if they want to stay. If we love them, care for them, and support them, they tend to want to stay.

Bishop - I can't stress how right you are in this.

It's a truism that's been repeated since at least President Hinckley was prophet, and probably longer.

There are several difficulties I've found in having this happen, however:

1) LDS families tend to be large, meaning the LDS family tends to take a lot of time. This means that it's difficult(Not impossible - I was certainly fellowshipped by a wonderful family when I first joined, whom I still consider parents and whom I go to for advice).

2) Younger LDS tend to have grown up around a lot of other LDS young men and young women. They have pre-existent friendships and cliques and it feels false to invite someone else in. This results in younger members sensing their solitude and lack of fitting in. I have moved from ward to ward with work and can guarantee I've felt this every time when I first moved in to a ward. It takes a lot of effort to fit in.

3) Everyone who is not married with lots of kids and responsibilities or young and in already established cliques are often on their own.

What this means is that people often have difficulties. They feel alone, even in the midst of the ward. It's a difficulty that needs overcoming, but everyone in the ward is the exception to the rule.

Because everyone is an exception to the rule, nobody takes responsibility.

Edited August 12, 2010 by FunkyTown

[todd520]

Only been in the chruch for a month,

- There is a rush to Baptism which means people that aren't ready are baptized.

- New members are often left hanging, as noted by other converts

Also, if you were another Christian denomination, you are not shown the differences that may latter be a problem for you. Joinging seems like moving across the street instead of across the country.

On international growth, I can only specualte that the sincerity and fellowship provided here are just as attractive, and in short supply, in their country.

[Melissa569]

I will agree that some people leave because of the points you mention in #2, but I also think it's because they don't understand LDS doctrine correctly. For example. marriage is not a requirement to be with God. and we don't become a god, we inherit all that God has and become as God is. And this is founded in Biblical verse (almost a direct quote, in fact). It is sad that people become dissuaded from the church based on lies from outside forces.

Actually, thank you for clarifying that, I myself was kind of confused about it. :)

[Guest mirancs8]

The first set of missionaries that I had when I moved to AZ were rushing the baptism topic. I immediately told them that I wouldn't be making that decision until it was right for me. 3 lessons and "so when should we set the baptism date" was a bit over the top. I was a believer in Mormonism for over 8 years but I personally need more time. Over a year later when I did make the decision it was me that told the missionaries (new set) that I was ready. They never made me feel rushed or pushed... instead they were consistent and always made me feel like they were there for me even if I didn't decide right now.

Once you do get baptized you do feel a bit alone struggling to get use to things. I would imagine it is very hard for a life long member to even understand how much of a change this is to someones life when they convert. It is an entirely different culture. I personally feel that attention needs to be given to those who recently converted. For the women the RS sisters need to make an effort to help a sister with the adjustment. For me personally there are several sisters as well as the RS President who occasionally come over and really help me with that part of it. I could not in words express how very helpful they have all been. They truly have a desire to be there and help me understand the unfamiliar as well as adjust to the new culture. The same goes for the men. I think they have to keep an occasional connection "check in" with a new brother.

In my lifetime I have experienced a few denomination and there is not one yet that is remotely close to the LDS. Because I believed for over 8 years before I was baptized I was somewhat prepared for the conversion and had a fairly good understanding of the culture. This made it much easier for me.

I do think that if they slowed down the "when should we set that baptism date" and let a person take the time that they need we would probably see a lower rate of people leaving the church shortly after baptism. People need to be prepared. It's a lot to digest.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

The LDS church has a phenomenal missionary program and uses the Book of Mormon very effectively as a conversion tool.

[darrel]

President Hinkley gave a wonderful discourse on how to truly convert new members. This is in the May 1999 Ensign page 104 entitled "Find my lambs, Feed my sheep" Every home should have the book "Preach my Gospel" in it and members should be truly member missionaries. I would encourage all of you to read them.

We too often put too high expectation on the full time missionaries for conversions. They set goals for baptisms and knock on doors to find contacts. This is the hard way and is very ineffective because there is little member involvement.

A good Ward/Branch mission plan will set the baptism, activation, priesthood, tithing, temple goals. Then the missionaries can help the ward reach those goals. They beg for our help but we should be begging for their help. They are to Teach and Baptize the referrals we give them.

The responsibility is the full time members are to make them "No more strngers and foreighners but fellow citizens with the saints".

Full time Elders and Sisters are only in an area a short time but the members are there long enough for the full conversion to take place.

The prophet is the prophet to the world. Bishop's flock is everyone within his ward boundry. We are to let our light shine that others may see our good works.

This has been a missionary church from the beginning. Each member is a missionary.

[Intrigued]

The LDS church has a phenomenal missionary program and uses the Book of Mormon very effectively as a conversion tool.

One man I know went through the discussions, etc. The basic teachings.. he read the BoM.. and the missionaries asked him if he believed that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. Of course he said he did.. but then, later on, as he got out of the 'basics'.. he learned things (that I find perfectly acceptable) that really shook his 'testimony' (if you can call it that). Things like henotheism, etc.

The snag here is that he already said that he believed Joseph Smith was a prophet.. and it's basically turtles all the way down from there.

[todd520]

One man I know went through the discussions, etc. The basic teachings.. he read the BoM.. and the missionaries asked him if he believed that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. Of course he said he did.. but then, later on, as he got out of the 'basics'.. he learned things (that I find perfectly acceptable) that really shook his 'testimony' (if you can call it that). Things like henotheism, etc.

The snag here is that he already said that he believed Joseph Smith was a prophet.. and it's basically turtles all the way down from there.

I'm a new member and can sympathize with your friend. After making the plunge, I keep an open mind and study these 'pot holes' that surface as we deepen our knowledge of our faith. New members really need someone to talk to that they trust, someone who can help them work through something instead of asking for acceptance on blind faith.

With some study and contemplation, I 've been able to effectively work through many early roadblocks.

[Roseslipper]

I go to Relief Society and participate in other activities. I've also volunteered, but I never get asked to serve. The problem with RS, at least in my ward, is that it has formed lots of little cliques, and none of them are really accepting new people. As a working woman, it's also hard for me to relate to a bunch of women talking about their kids, and they play "pass the new baby" during meetings. None of that really interests me. Generally the RS lessons are on the history of the church, so I go to meetings mostly for that.

you are a strong woman kimiko....hang in...smile, say hi to the other sisters. u will get to know them. and i know that sometimes we even feel lonely with our friends around us...i think its called being human. people are not perfect non of us are. but the gospel is.

[Jamie123]

One man I know went through the discussions, etc. The basic teachings.. he read the BoM.. and the missionaries asked him if he believed that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. Of course he said he did.. but then, later on, as he got out of the 'basics'.. he learned things (that I find perfectly acceptable) that really shook his 'testimony' (if you can call it that). Things like henotheism, etc.

The snag here is that he already said that he believed Joseph Smith was a prophet.. and it's basically turtles all the way down from there.

I've seen exactly this sort of thing in other religious contexts. The central "conversion process" in most protestant traditions is:

1. Understand that you are a sinner.

2. Understand that you cannot by your own strength stop being a sinner.

3. Believe that Jesus Christ can/will/already has paid the price for your sin.

4. Accept this gift of grace and invite Christ to come into your heart.

This seems fine and dandy, and the new Christian naturally expects more of the same. He is congratulated by one or two well-meaning "churchy" types but the good times don't last long. He is now plunged into a strange society which makes at least some of the following assumptions:

1. Calvinism good, Arminianism bad (or vice-versa).

2. Our tradition good, other traditions (including other protestant churches) bad. Mormons, JW's and (ugh!) Catholics worst of all!

3. God will perform healing miracles as and when we pray for them. If a person gets sick it's their own fault for not saying their prayers properly.

4. Speaking in tongues is as normal as breathing and is therefore unworthy of discussion.

5. People who have never heard of Jesus Christ will burn in hell forever.

6. So will all homosexuals. (Aids is just the beginning!)

7. The Bible is literally true down to the last comma and period.

8. The Rapture is really going to happen, exactly as per LaHaye and Jenkins. Make sure you're not in the bathroom when it comes! (Joke!)

9. KJV good, NIV bad. (And if you don't believe me, study that great Biblical scholar Jack Chick!)

10. Everything scientists discovered over the past 150 years about the origin of the universe and life is wrong. All textbooks on biology and cosmology are demonic. Kent Hovind should be released from prison and given a Nobel prize! (Joke!)

The convert, who has until now been inspired by thoughts of grace, redemption and divine love, wonders what any of this has to do with his original reasons for believing. He becomes introverted; he feels those around him are talking another language which he cannot join in. If he mentions any of his fears, he becomes the focus of disapproving glares and "Don't you understand anything...?" type replies. He begins to suspect that his fellow believers suspect that he really is still an outsider. So he keeps quiet and bottles it up...until finally it's too much for him and he leaves the group.

The "well-meaning churchy-types" probably don't even notice he's gone, or if they do they pay little heed. He never said very much at meetings. Was never one of the inner clique. "And wow! He had problems with us speaking in tongues? How could he have been a real Christian?" He probably wasn't one of God's Elect anyway.

This is an extreme picture I know. Not every protestant congregation makes all these assumptions, or gets scandalized when they are questioned. But even in the most open and liberal Christian circles there's still something of a culture-shock. I should imagine its probably the same in Mormonism too.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Jamie123

[Bini]

I think some of these converts that fall away from the church do so when they lose contact with the missionaries that converted them and or lose that close-knit support you get when you're an investigator.

[Flossyship]

As someone who has only been a member of the Church for two, almost three weeks the thing I initially struggled with was the Missionaries 'moving on'.

For a month I saw the Missionaries three/four times a week for lessons then again on Sunday; and to go from that to basically nothing is a big step. You go from learning something new every other day to suddenly feeling like you should know it all.

Luckily, the members in my Ward are all incredibly welcoming and are there for every need a new member may have. So I have been supported and had my questions answered.

I know in my heart that this is was the right decision I made and that I did this for myself, not for attention or to please the Missionaries - so I feel (and hope!) that I will be a lifelong member. However, for people who are not so sure and basically go with the flow to the stage of Baptism and do not belong to a supportive Ward, I can completely see and understand how they leave the Church.

I really believe that supporting new members is SO important, as it is confusing and sometimes scary; and if there is no support it is easy to 'drop out'. As I said, my Ward is incredible, and I feel so blessed that they are all there to support me as I continue to learn.

[baellison]

ok so im new to the site and currently investigating a bit. so i read a post of yours about the hard time quitting the cigarettes, me too and the coffee. can you help me out here on how long it actually took you? i may or may not do it. im honest with the missionaries and just tell themi cant commit to that right now. once i have no doubt and feel this religion is for me than it should be a pece of cake. i know its bad but i still enjoy it. im coming around but would love to hear your story.

thanks