Surprising quote in the Ensign about long hair.

[crazypotato]

I have been reading along and laughing my back side off. Crazy, you slay me. I wish I had your knack for hyperbole. But--but God created us naked. We should go to church...um...naked! (It's a joke people, don't burn me at the stake)

And I for one, want a photo, crazypotatoe of that get up when you put it on.

I can't really control what I wear. People are always punching in different hats on my head, or changing my eyes in and out, or changing lips for teeth, teeth for lips. Sometimes I hold a purse, sometimes my shoes change, but I am always naked. . .

[Carl62]

I have been laughing the whole time I have been posting on this thread, and getting such serious answers that it is making me laugh even harder! Ahhh

Yeah, I think I know what you mean. This topic has been making me laugh also.

[Cassiopeia]

Finally! Someone who gets my sense of humor. I have been laughing the whole time I have been posting on this thread, and getting such serious answers that it is making me laugh even harder! And no one even laughed about people hurting my peelings. I thought that was a good one. It still makes me chuckle. Ahhh

ahahahahaha!!! I just woke up a half hour ago and I'm laughing so hard at this post my sore back is aching.

Seriously, you are the bomb. I love your sense of humour. If it makes you feel any better, no one laughed at my God created us naked so we should go to church naked joke. *sobbing her heart out*

I feel so unloved!

[Sean1427]

I enjoy the post, one I've got to chime in on. Let me start by saying that if contemporary America and the Palestine of Jesus and his followers were in the same time period, I seriously doubt that Jesus could easily clear US customs! As many here know, I live and work in Saudi Arabia, the heartland of the ME, where beards are the norm for at two reasons. First, Gillette hasn't yet changed the cultural views of what a handsome, sexy, or professonal man should look like such as it has in the US. (Yes, technology does change culture and can do so quite dramatically.) Second, Muslim men wear beards for religious reasons. In fact, they use the same words we use when we discuss how we should dress and groom--we both do many things to "follow the prophet." Perhaps, it's a good think we can't take the gospel to the Muslims at this point. Just think of the problems associated with conversion! For years they've worn a beard to show that they are following the prophet, and then they convert to Mormonism and have to shave it off to show they are following the prophet! Of course, shaving the beard might be interpreted by other Muslims among whom they live that they've publicly abandoned their religion, which is haram (forbidden). At the very least, it would create tremendous peer pressure where a man's having a beard is about the same as a woman's wearing a veil. Sometime I think that the time for taking the Gospel to the Muslims won't be until a day when Gillette, the power of advertising, and the media no longer have such power over the minds of men and women! (I hope everyone knows I say much of this tongue-in-cheek and yet . . . ? By the way, the Amish and Menonites wear beards because, as they've told me repeatedly, God gave men facial hair for a reason.)

When I wrote of clearing customs, one of the things I thought of was the beard. Many Americans living in the ME grow beards. But when they come back to the US where beards can actually scare people, they often have problems clearing customs. Friends of mine who have this problem have come to a solution. Just before coming back to the US, they shave their beards. This makes things easier at customs. Once they are here, they begin to let the beard grow again, and after about three weeks here, they have a beard that fits in nicely back in the ME.

Interestingly, in the 1970s, when the Church was still pretty much an American religion, a man with a beard and long hair couldn't go to the temple. That, of course, is no longer the case, but in the 1970s it was much like BYU's been for a long time. Of course, at BYU you can have a beard (unless they've changed it since I was there) if it alleviates certain skin problems. Hence, everyone knows that the guys with the beards have a certain skin condition. When I was a student in the 1980s, we had an inactive member who we in the EQ presidency debated extending a call to--he was not a BYU student but lived in an apartment complex, and almost all housing in the valley was BYU approved, which meant BYU dress and grooming standards applied to all even those who were not students. He didn't have skin condition so . . . For a time, it didn't look like he'd be getting a call because of his beard. But while it was the norm that you couldn't go to the temple if you had a beard or long hair, this did not apply to Navajo men, many of whom had hair almost as long as that of Navajo women. The Church certainly took culture into account--what the practice symoblized in one culture differed from how it was seen in another, which fits well with what Elder Oaks said that it was a cultural not a moral issue. The problem is that it's hard to divorce ourselves from our cultural do's and don'ts. (Of course, I've often wondered what dress and grooming is going to be like in the next life!)

I'd like to expand on some things many have mentioned here have touched on, but I do so from the field, so to speak. Every year in Saudi Arabia the unit leaders (bishop or branch president) will read the same letter regarding church policy for all members in the Kingdom. In that letter we are told to "dress down" when we go to church. From then on, things become confusing! Most of us dress down as we are told to do. But there are exceptions--while everyone else attending church has dressed down, those in the bishopric/branch presidency always dress up in a white shirt, tie, slacks, and possibly a full suit. It gets better, however. For example, one Friday (the equivalent of Sunday here), the EQ president, who was dressed down, approached me before church and asked if I'd be willing to bless the sacrament. But just as I was saying yes, he corrected himself and said, "No, you can't do it--you're not wearing a white shirt and tie." Well, of course not, because I was dressed down as we've all been instructed to do. It really struck me as odd--the one asking me, who is dressed down, is telling me I can't bless the sacrament because I'm dressed down, which is what we've all ben told to do. But . . . it's got to the point that there'll always be an extra tie someone brings just in case. But then there's the problem of what about an extra white shirt? And one that fits? One of the members actually went too native for the other members. He started wearing a nice white "thobe" (what looks like a long dress you'll see on men) to church. It wasn't long before he was told that it wasn't appropriate. Later at the airport in Manama, Bahrain, I ran into the EQ president and reminded him of the experience I've shared above. He told me that while he disagreed with the way things were done, that was what our branch presidency wanted.

Once after 9/11, I was back in my home stake in the US and was asked to give a sacrament talk on the Church in the ME. I wanted to share something with the members in my talk, but I first wanted to see what the Church handbook of instructions said, so I approached the bishop before sacrament. I asked him whath the handbook said about appropriate attire for church. He told me that all the handbook said was that people should wear their best dress. I then asked if this applied to those administering the sacrament. The response was the same. But he then added that despite what the handbook said, he personally would never allow anyone to bless or pass the sacrament if they weren't wearing a white shirt and tie.

The Church membership in Saudi are all foreign nationals, coming from numerous lands. But everyone is following the example of how things are done in America. But I suspect that once the Church gets into the ME, things will change dramatically. I've found that the general authorities are far more accommodating of cultural differences than is the general church membership. Someone mentioned a lava lava. In the island of the Pacific where lava lavas has long been the norm of those cultures, men quite often wear white shirts, ties and lava lavas to church. They also administer the sacrament in the same. Men in the ME don't wear white shirts, business suits, ties, etc. . . . That's all western garb. When the church does get into those lands, I suspect many of our ways of doing things will be done away to accommodate those coming into the Church. Right now, the church units there are in essence "little Americas" in that most members, while not American, defer to the local leadership, who are almost always American. But once Arabs enter the Church in large numbers, the local leadership will likely change and you'll see men wearing beards and thobes in church and administering the sacrament.

The problem is that we don't realize how much our culture influences us. It has a tremendous hold on us and this leads to many of the challenges we face. And I'm a firm believer that for most of us, we let our culture inform our religion, rather than the other way around. But we really need to move beyond things like beards & long hair and white shirts & ties to more important things like this--when we prepare the sacrament, do we use white or brown bread; store bought or homemade; sliced or unsliced; western-style bread, peta bread, or crackers? Um? Just look at what beards and long hair on men can lead to! Everyone here can count their blessings that most don't have to deal with the latter. At least not yet.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Sean1427

[GADBabaganoosh]

I had a beard, but i had to shave it for my job. Its gonna make a comeback. I trimmed it weekly usually.

[Over43]

Someone called me once and asked if I could bring a loaf of "bread" for sacrmament. I had a loaf of Roman Meal so I took it. I was told by someone, "thank you, but only 'white' bread is appropriate..." So, me, being me, told the person how stupid that was...

In the end, someone else arrived with a loaf of white bread and I got to keep my Roman Meal. Probably two weeks later, I look into the sacrament tray, and behold, there was wheat bread.

Most of us arrive at church as the white bread variety Mormon. (Which would probably describe ,me.) Sometimes though, wheat bread is a nice change. You can have short hair, no beard, gotee, or mustache, and still be a scoundrel. However, I draw the line at the mullet. On men or women.

[Moksha]

-- but it does have a nice ring of legalism to it doesn't it?

Once our inner Pharisee has clubbed our inner rebel senseless, we can forge rules within rules.

[Suzie]

The "rules" that we are talking about here can be found in your book of Leviticus, chapter 18, verse 12, as everybody here knows.

18:12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she [is] thy father's near kinswoman.

[crazypotato]

so . . . very. . . . funny!!!!!!

[Suzie]

Crazypotato, I am lost! (as usual LOL) but I don't understand the connection. Do you mind to explain? Thanks.

[Wingnut]

Suzie, don't worry. CP's just gone off the deep end. The very deep end.

[rameumptom]

Do you think God would diminish your worship of him or hear your prayers any less if you were dressed like that? It's what's in your heart that counts and not what's on the outside. I guess I concern myself a lot more with what God think than what the LDS Joneses think. "Judge me on the content of my character..."

Yes, God still loves you, etc.

However, Turn this around. If you choose a different path than the one encouraged by the Prophet, what is the content of your character? Are you submissive and obedient? Or are you expressing your own form of rebellion?

We can move this from clothing and hair length to a wide variety of other areas, as well. Any time we choose something, we are choosing "good, better, best" as Elder Oaks recently explained. This means that not all of our choices are evil, but there are some that will exalt us over others.

In the scriptures and modern life, we find that God reveals more and gives more power to those who walk extremely faithful and obedient (see Alma 13). Yes, he can and will bless the good. But for those who choose the best, he can do greater works with and through them.

I've met many people over the years who have gained a testimony of the Restored Church through the Holy Ghost. Yet they have not accepted baptism, or if they have, did not remain active. God works with all of us to the level we are willing and able to accept. Sadly, many of us still choose good things over the best things. Being a Christian is good, but if one rejects the witness of the HG to become LDS and receive the blessings of the priesthood and temple, then that person is choosing to not choose the best.

When the prophets set an example, we can choose the best and follow it completely, or we can choose a lesser and only partially follow it, or not follow it at all. Our choice. God still loves us, but we lose power and strength from God and the Holy Ghost by choosing only good.

[Traveler]

I think a lot of posters are missing the point. Coming unto and becoming one with G-d is not about individual expression and personal self indulgent choices; it is about discipline and sacrifice of self for the benefit of others. I know for myself that if there was even a hint that I should change my appearance for the L-rd – I would do it in a heartbeat. In fact I would try to understand what was really being asked and do far more than I was asked.

Yes – I love and appreciate my L-rd that much. But then this is me. I am convinced we will all be able to be involved as we determine we should and in the way we want. As for me – it is not my will but the L-rd’s.

Many in my own family have criticized me because I wear my “Church” attire for the entire Sabbath. It is part of my personal Sabbath covenant – if there is an ox in the mire I will work to get it out in my best “Sunday” attire. But I have never criticized even my wife that changes her attire as soon as she come home from church – She does so many other things better than me it would be most foolish and unproductive to even entertain a critical thought.

The Traveler

[FunkyTown]

When the prophets set an example, we can choose the best and follow it completely, or we can choose a lesser and only partially follow it, or not follow it at all. Our choice. God still loves us, but we lose power and strength from God and the Holy Ghost by choosing only good.

Couple of things here: Just because the Prophet appears as something doesn't mean we should emulate the prophet in all things. Especially pertaining to things that aren't important.

Should I gain several pounds to weigh as much as Thomas S Monson?

Should I get surgery to be as tall?

Should I purchase a hairpiece that looks like Thomas S Monson's?

Should I quit my job and join a Printing company to be like Thomas S Monson?

I respect that you try to stay as close to the center as you can, Rame. That's commendable. And if someone is choosing something merely as a form of rebellion rather than an aesthetic choice, then that does say something about their character.

Beyond that, it doesn't.

[UrbanFool]

Timing is everything.

Magic Ponytail Moves On After Bestowing Boon Of Youth On Area 54-Year-Old | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

[Sean1427]

Regarding your comment, Traveler, in essence I agree with you that what matters is changing so as to please God. I also understand why you choose to where your church attire on Sunday. But I do the same thing in Saudi where our church attire is much more casual than is likely your church attire which is probably different than the church attire of many Polynesian men who still wear lava lavas as part of their church attire. Dressing appropriately for the Lord varies depending on one's circumstances and culture. (I just remembered an Indian member who had problems at the entrance of a temple near my home in the US--she went in best dress, a khamis sawaal, which is very modest, but didn't fit the idea of best dress for those at the front desk.) This gets back to the question of what is appropriate church attire, which varies across culture and time. Of course, we still follow the handbook of instructions which simply states to wear best dress to church, which includes cleanliness and modesty. As you've alluded to, however, it all comes down to a personal decision, whether it's proper attire for the sabbath or long hair on men. While I'm not anxious to get there at the moment, I'm curious as to what dress and grooming is like in the spirit world! Moreover, what's best dress for those in the Celestial Kingdom?

[Moksha]

• What about wearing more than one lapel pin?
• Or a tie clasp and a tie pin?
• Or a watch chain and a wrist watch?
• Or suspenders and a belt?

Are these not items that should deserve some counsel?

[UrbanFool]

• What about wearing more than one lapel pin?
• Or a tie clasp and a tie pin?
• Or a watch chain and a wrist watch?
• Or suspenders and a belt?

Are these not items that should deserve some counsel?

I'd rather get the inside scoop on coffee and tea. Is it the caffeine or not?

[spamlds]

When I joined the Church in 1978, long hair was still in fashion to some degree. I had shoulder-length hair at the time. A few months after I became a member, I was called to be a stake missionary and I was asked very diplomatically if I would consider cutting my hair. I was honored to be extended a calling and especially to work with the missionaries, so I went to the barber shop before the next Sunday and got a regular men's haircut. Some people at Church nearly didn't recognize me! It was funny.

I never regretted cutting my hair. I figured that personal vanity was a small thing to sacrifice for the honor of serving as a representative of the Lord's Church.

After my mission, I got into the habit of wearing plaid or "other than white" shirts to Church. I often wore sweaters and such instead of wearing a tie. As a young father with children, I usually sat with my family and I didn't have to pass or bless the sacrament as often as I had done when I was single.

Eventually, I came to realize that the simple thing of wearing a white shirt and a tie sent a signal to my priesthood leaders (and thus to the Lord's servants) that I was ready and willing to participate in priesthood ordinances. I decided that I would always wear a white shirt and tie from that point on. It was a small thing, but it signified a change in my attitude to be personally more available to the Lord.

Ten years ago, I was called to a bishopric. The bishop always has to be clean shaven, thus his counselors (as his proxies for some business) should be clean shaven as well. It's a sign of support to the bishop. Again, it shows a ready mind and a willingness to shoulder the yoke as the bishop's fellowservants.

Today, I'm a branch president. I appreciate it so much when my brethren come to Church wearing the simple, dignified apparel that will allow them to pass the sacrament, administer to the sick, or to teach a class without undue distraction. I am grateful for sisters and young women who wear modest apparel and set a good example.

We don't wear "burkas," but what we do wear is an outward manifestation of our readiness to submit ourselves to the service of God. Very often, when we are trying to resist the Lord's Spirit, it shows up in how we dress and groom our bodies. It's a small thing we can do to invite the Lord's Spirit to be with us and to show respect for him and his Church.

[Moksha]

We don't wear "burkas," but what we do wear is an outward manifestation of our readiness to submit ourselves to the service of God.

If Burkas were required, I am sure most would comply. That would certainly hurt the chances of the BYU women's volleyball team though. It would be hard to see the ball. However, it might mean fewer firesides on modesty for the Young Women.

[Wingnut]

I appreciate it so much when my brethren come to Church wearing the simple, dignified apparel that will allow them to pass the sacrament, administer to the sick, or to teach a class without undue distraction.

It's great that you appreciate it from your leadership standpoint, and that it's something that works in your branch, but do the members there really have ADD so bad that they're distracted by a blue shirt?

[mightynancy]

It's great that you appreciate it from your leadership standpoint, and that it's something that works in your branch, but do the members there really have ADD so bad that they're distracted by a blue shirt?

You'd be surprised.

We had a priest bless the sacrament in a plaid shirt a few months ago, and I'm certain there were members who wondered if it was a valid ordinance. A sister near me even mentioned his shirt to me during the sacrament.

While I think it's silly to fuss over the color of a shirt, I have my son wear white. I feel that the higher obligation is to administer the sacrament without upsetting anyone, even if I think the issue is nothing to be upset over. I hope that makes sense.

[Wingnut]

You'd be surprised.

We had a priest bless the sacrament in a plaid shirt a few months ago, and I'm certain there were members who wondered if it was a valid ordinance. A sister near me even mentioned his shirt to me during the sacrament.

While I think it's silly to fuss over the color of a shirt, I have my son wear white. I feel that the higher obligation is to administer the sacrament without upsetting anyone, even if I think the issue is nothing to be upset over. I hope that makes sense.

I agree with you completely, but I think "it's distracting from the Spirit" is a bogus and stretched argument.

[annewandering]

We need to be careful that the reason we're not conforming to the normal standard is because of individualism, one of Satan's great counterfeits.*

I would dearly love to know what scripture this came from. Individualism is not satans anything. We are each individuals as God our Father made us. WE make COOKIES with cookie cutters not PEOPLE.

[spamlds]

I agree with you completely, but I think "it's distracting from the Spirit" is a bogus and stretched argument.

There will always be a tug-of-war between the Spirit and uniformity in the Church. The Spirit will direct the leaders of the individual congregations as to what is appropriate and what isn't. If the saints are in-tune with the Spirit, they will support the leaders without undue murmuring.

Let me use a concrete situation that occurred in my branch. We have two wonderful young men. That's all, just two. Their family is from Mexico. Their father is a righteous priesthood holder, a returned missionary, and a good man. These young men, as first generation Americans, straddle two cultures. There is a temptation that occurs for them to rebel against what might be considered "Anglo" traditions and standards. They are good boys, but as all teenage boys do, they test limits sometime.

One Sunday, one of them was wearing a "biker wallet" with a long chain hanging out of his pocket, way down his leg. I didn't see it and apparently their mother and father didn't catch it either. They have smaller children and were probably running around trying to find shoes and whatnot for the younger children before coming to church. I know how that goes!

Anyway, as one of the brethren handed him the sacrament tray, after the prayer, I saw the chain hanging out of the boy's pocket, down his leg. It was definitely distracting. As he brought me the sacrament, my first impulse was to have him do something about it. Instead, I felt the gentle prompting to ignore it. The Spirit corrected me.

As he went down the rows, passing the bread, he got to the back of the chapel behind the members' seats and waited for his brother to finish the other side. A lady in the back, right next to him reached over, took the chain, and gently dropped it into his pocket. She smiled and he looked a little embarrassed, but he smiled back and nodded. No one else saw this but me and my counselors up front.

The rest of the ordinance finished as usual. I never brought it up and the wallet with the chain has never appeared in church again. Had I tried to correct the issue in front of everyone, it would have probably humiliated the young man. There was a definite prompting by the Spirit to let it go. Then the Spirit prompted the sister in the back to correct the young man lovingly and gently, where no one else in the congregation would see.

The fine line between Phariseeism (inflexible rules and ritual) and standards of uniformity guided by inspired leaders is that the Spirit guides the leaders. If your bishop requires a white shirt and a tie for youth who pass the sacrament, then support him in that. In my small branch, I sometimes have very few priesthood brethren present. In some cases, I have to bend a little.

A few weeks ago, I felt impressed to ask a new convert to pass the sacrament. He is not from our country and he is still getting used the "norms" of the Church. He was wearing a suit and a shirt with an open collar, as would be common in his country. When he joined the Church, he didn't own a suit. A member of the branch had bought him the suit just a week earlier. Would I have preferred that he be wearing a tie? Most definitely. Was I about to argue with the Spirit when it prompted me to ask him to participate in the ordinance? No!

I want you all to know that the appointed leaders of your stakes, wards, and branches are chosen by the Lord. They are not perfect men, but I testify that the Lord speaks to them. Revelation is very real in the Church. It happens all the time. Your bishops receive inspiration frequently in very clear ways. You may not see it. You may be tested by their inspiration. That's part of the test of life and of being a member of the Church.

Brothers and sisters, have confidence in the shepherds who watch over you. Don't criticize them. Support them. Don't backbite against them. Don't gainsay and resist the gentle counsel that comes from them. Great blessing will come to you as you do this.

Let me conclude by saying this. If your own mind is distracted over what message you're going to send this week by wearing a plaid shirt or a dress that might be inappropriate, your mind is not going to be operating at the level necessary to hear the quiet promptings of the Spirit that might have far more important things to teach you. If you yield your heart to the Lord and stop arguing with him and his servants about such mundane things, suddenly the channels open up for more important communications. Let the Lord win this one. OK?