ward implications of breast implants

[dash77]

I went back and forth on whether to create this post. It is built on another post that was created in the early part of June titled “Breast Implants” (in the general discussion thread). I thought the breast implants thread began well and there was some good conversation, but sadly inappropriate comments about the sacred Temple were made and the topic was rightfully closed.

I was about to write a true story regarding the ward implications of breast implants right before the thread was closed. As such, this is the thread. In essence, I am suggesting in this thread that when women get cosmetic-oriented breast implants (not reconstructive breast implants) that such personal decisions can really affect wards in negative ways – especially when the women who get them, or supporting husbands, are considered “really good members.” This thread is to be focused on the sociological implications of breast implants – you can visit the original thread to learn of the broader discussion or see my personal comments regarding how breast implants are associated with personal health problems (see my comment #77 at http://www.lds.net/forums/general-discussion/33158-breast-implants-8.html

I am looking for mature dialogue and hope other can be mature. I have found that websites like this one can be used for various purposes. However, some people use them to justify sin, other to post as imposters to harm and some might act inappropriate to shut down appropriate dialogue to stop a certain topic conversation. However, sites like these and the thread I am creating can have a positive influence in creating in-depth discussion where all learn, be it through debate and dialogue.

My story regarding the ward implications of breast implants is below. I look for other peoples thoughts. I think too many people think about only themselves when exploring breast implants (and other similar cosmetic surgeries) and do not think beyond themselves. I offer this story as a means of outlining how personal decisions can have a negative affect other others.

There are women in the church (and obviously outside of the church) that get breast implants simply because they want a certain body image – they do not have medical problems and are not in need of medical oriented or reconstructive surgery (repair loss from accident, illness or abnormalities). Rather, these breast surgeries are for vanity to have a certain look (e.g., a body image that creates a before having children look) and are cosmetic oriented breast implants. These women (and supporting men) can create a cancer at church (although church is a hospital for the sinners – and we are all sinners). In a past ward I lived in a good LDS woman simply wanted larger breasts so she got cosmetic surgery. Although she did not flaunt them and still dressed modestly, it was obvious and it had a real negative effect on the ward. Other women began to think they would like bigger breasts (not Pamela Anderson types, but a cup size up) and then a couple of other women got them – again, out of wanting/coveting an image. This actually had a negative influence on the young women of the ward (one of the adult women was the young women’s president) and there were cases of young women wanting breast implants (e.g., a high school graduating present) and saying to their parents: “well, sister __________ got them and she is righteous, so what is wrong with it?” All in all about 6 different women got breast implants for a look, actually banded together for support, and one young woman got breast implants – which them caused more problems in the YM program. I am certain these six women were think of their own personal needs and not looking at how individual actual do influence others – even when not designed. All six of the women were “good members” of the ward.

What I learned from this is that when very good LDS members get implants they can be more destructive than less active people because other members see their actions as validating and credible. And when it comes to cosmetic surgery to have a certain body image (not reconstructive to deal with a medical/health issue) – these women’s actions caused harm to others (e.g., creating a ward divide rather than unity, made women with smaller breasts feel ‘less than’, promoted an unhealthy sexual objectified body image, created tension between daughters and parents, . That is why I see an important missing aspect to the breast implant debate – that aspect if the sociological implications of breast implants. .

I’m not sure what can be more clear that General Authorities who have stated in conference talk not to alter one’s body and when ‘good members” make personal exceptions, I have witnesses a chain of events – in this case mostly negative.

[MarginOfError]

Of course they were thinking more about themselves than they were of others. No one undergoes elective cosmetic surgery altruistically.

But the divisions in the ward you discuss are not the fault of the people who got breast implants. The breast implants were the catalyst that exposed a character flaw already evident in the people who contributed to the divisions.

It is up to each and every individual to be accepting, compassionate, and inclusive of all other people in the Church regardless of what stupid, petty, or poorly informed decisions they make. The divisions that grew in your ward are not the fault of breast implants, but the fault of people making a big deal about breast implants. So I can't condone your defense of the offended and the jealous. If they don't like that someone got breast implants, then they need to get over it.

[Hemidakota]

I went back and forth on whether to create this post. It is built on another post that was created in the early part of June titled “Breast Implants” (in the general discussion thread). I thought the breast implants thread began well and there was some good conversation, but sadly inappropriate comments about the sacred Temple were made and the topic was rightfully closed.

I was about to write a true story regarding the ward implications of breast implants right before the thread was closed. As such, this is the thread. In essence, I am suggesting in this thread that when women get cosmetic-oriented breast implants (not reconstructive breast implants) that such personal decisions can really affect wards in negative ways – especially when the women who get them, or supporting husbands, are considered “really good members.” This thread is to be focused on the sociological implications of breast implants – you can visit the original thread to learn of the broader discussion or see my personal comments regarding how breast implants are associated with personal health problems (see my comment #77 at http://www.lds.net/forums/general-discussion/33158-breast-implants-8.html

I am looking for mature dialogue and hope other can be mature. I have found that websites like this one can be used for various purposes. However, some people use them to justify sin, other to post as imposters to harm and some might act inappropriate to shut down appropriate dialogue to stop a certain topic conversation. However, sites like these and the thread I am creating can have a positive influence in creating in-depth discussion where all learn, be it through debate and dialogue.

My story regarding the ward implications of breast implants is below. I look for other peoples thoughts. I think too many people think about only themselves when exploring breast implants (and other similar cosmetic surgeries) and do not think beyond themselves. I offer this story as a means of outlining how personal decisions can have a negative affect other others.

There are women in the church (and obviously outside of the church) that get breast implants simply because they want a certain body image – they do not have medical problems and are not in need of medical oriented or reconstructive surgery (repair loss from accident, illness or abnormalities). Rather, these breast surgeries are for vanity to have a certain look (e.g., a body image that creates a before having children look) and are cosmetic oriented breast implants. These women (and supporting men) can create a cancer at church (although church is a hospital for the sinners – and we are all sinners). In a past ward I lived in a good LDS woman simply wanted larger breasts so she got cosmetic surgery. Although she did not flaunt them and still dressed modestly, it was obvious and it had a real negative effect on the ward. Other women began to think they would like bigger breasts (not Pamela Anderson types, but a cup size up) and then a couple of other women got them – again, out of wanting/coveting an image. This actually had a negative influence on the young women of the ward (one of the adult women was the young women’s president) and there were cases of young women wanting breast implants (e.g., a high school graduating present) and saying to their parents: “well, sister __________ got them and she is righteous, so what is wrong with it?” All in all about 6 different women got breast implants for a look, actually banded together for support, and one young woman got breast implants – which them caused more problems in the YM program. I am certain these six women were think of their own personal needs and not looking at how individual actual do influence others – even when not designed. All six of the women were “good members” of the ward.

What I learned from this is that when very good LDS members get implants they can be more destructive than less active people because other members see their actions as validating and credible. And when it comes to cosmetic surgery to have a certain body image (not reconstructive to deal with a medical/health issue) – these women’s actions caused harm to others (e.g., creating a ward divide rather than unity, made women with smaller breasts feel ‘less than’, promoted an unhealthy sexual objectified body image, created tension between daughters and parents, . That is why I see an important missing aspect to the breast implant debate – that aspect if the sociological implications of breast implants. .

I’m not sure what can be more clear that General Authorities who have stated in conference talk not to alter one’s body and when ‘good members” make personal exceptions, I have witnesses a chain of events – in this case mostly negative.

Are you from San Diego area? Sounds like my local ward.

[havejoy]

I don't understand why it was such a big deal in the OP's ward. We had a woman in my ward that had breast implants and all I remember thinking to myself was something along the lines of, 'Looks like she had breast enhancement surgery' but I don't remember much talk about it beyond wondering how much it hurt. It certainly didn't have a domino effect.

[Hemidakota]

I can't imagine what it would be like when it is time for the ressurection...

"SORRY, Sister xxxxxxxx! We cannot include the gel cells from the chest cavity with this ressurected body. "

[dash77]

Margin of Error:

I can agree with parts of what you are saying. The division in the ward I am referring was caused my differing factors and both the “its OK to get breast implants” and “its not OK to get breast implants” camps are to blame (but I would not say equally)

However, the one area of LDS culture I have always struggled with is the lack of social awareness. I see the breast implant issue in this ward as one that denotes a situation where a group of individuals, each acting in their own individual best interest (e.g., breast implants), find that the collective effect of their independently logical actions is actually a societal negative (e.g., reinforcement of a societal norm that “real” women have larger/perfect breasts, women are sex objects, and those women with smaller breasts are “less than”). I am looking through a Christian sociological lens focused on the teachings of Christ.

If there is one repeated message that the Savior taught it was to lose oneself in the service of others. To lose oneself in the service of others to occur, we as members need to (1) think less of ourselves, and (2) spend more time thinking of others. Even at work situations I have changed my own behaviors to make others feel better. Please look at this issue from a sociological perspective. Think of how these women influenced the young women of the ward and the family tension it created.

[Hemidakota]

Or listen to what Apostle Elder Jeffrey R. Holland stated to the Young women (this does include older women):

"Frankly, the world has been brutal with you in this regard. You are bombarded in movies, television, fashion magazines, and advertisements with the message that looks are everything! The pitch is, “If your looks are good enough, your life will be glamorous and you will be happy and popular.” That kind of pressure is immense in the teenage years, to say nothing of later womanhood. In too many cases too much is being done to the human body to meet just such a fictional (to say nothing of superficial) standard. As one Hollywood actress is reported to have said recently: “We’ve become obsessed with beauty and the fountain of youth. … I’m really saddened by the way women mutilate [themselves] in search of that. I see women [including young women] … pulling this up and tucking that back. It’s like a slippery slope. [You can’t get off of it.] … It’s really insane … what society is doing to women.”

In terms of preoccupation with self and a fixation on the physical, this is more than social insanity; it is spiritually destructive, and it accounts for much of the unhappiness women, including young women, face in the modern world. And if adults are preoccupied with appearance—tucking and nipping and implanting and remodeling everything that can be remodeled—those pressures and anxieties will certainly seep through to children. At some point the problem becomes what the Book of Mormon called “vain imaginations.” And in secular society both vanity and imagination run wild. One would truly need a great and spacious makeup kit to compete with beauty as portrayed in media all around us. Yet at the end of the day there would still be those “in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers” as Lehi saw, because however much one tries in the world of glamour and fashion, it will never be glamorous enough."

Ref: LDS.org - Ensign Article - To Young Women

[Moksha]

Such a chain reaction occured because of a dysfunction in Ward interaction, and not because one single woman decided to get breast implants.

[Melissa569]

I personally don't see why it would be anybody else's business in the ward. As "loving Christians", its not their place to judge people anyway. Do you think Jesus would point, stare, and whisper nasty gossip, if someone with breast implants walked into the room? Of course not! So neither should we.

That's a private matter. And I guess there might be ways fo lessenign the impact. As far as going to church is concerned, we're not really supposed to show off our chest there, so its perfectly acceptable to wear clothes that do not flatter that area in church, like maybe they hang over that area, or are somewhat bulky there. So hopefully, not too many people would notice. And maybe do the same when you know people from church are going to be comming over to your house. After a long time of wearing such clothes to church, you could gradually start wearing more normal-fitting clothes. It would have been a while since they saw your old form, and perhaps the change would be so gradual, nobody would really notice.

And naturally, you should try not to get anything done too drastic, it should always look natural.

I personally would never get implants for any other reason than and illness or some kind of accident. Mostly because I am quite happy with my natural shape, I'm not small or anything (none of the women in my family are, lol).

I don't really have an opinion on doing it for vanity-- other than, again, it should not be obviously drastic. Not sure how I feel about the whole "mutilation" thing. I've always personally defined mutilation as something gory, that makes the body LESS attractive. For example, I don't consider cutting hair, shaving, or plucking eyebrows mutilation. I consider them "grooming". And so do most people, as the church encourages men to keep their hair cut short, and be shaved. So I would assume women maintaining similar groom practices is fine.

Of course, if a woman is fairly normal in her shape, I would really prefer to see more of such women just love and accept themselves. But I understand why people might choose to do it, even despite religious influences.

If you've been married to a man for several years, and you've never had much definition in that area... And you see him playfully commenting on (or looking at) other women who are more defined... Or even if you're just single, and it seems like most the guys are going for "well endowed" women-- that can really takes its toll on your self esteem. If you have low self esteem about your body, your love life can suffer, because you won't be as "open" or confident during intimacy. And men really don't like a woman who is too shy, or down on her body. Confidence (not arrogance) is attractive. And some women just can't convince themselves to be confident with their natural looks. Sometimes, husbands will even suggest surgery, and that really knocks a woman down.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Melissa569

[Moksha]

If one really needs a culprit for dysfunctional behavior in a ward, why not blame the guy who just got a top of the line BMW. If the right cipher was used upsidedown, I suspect someone could see the number 666 in the letters B M W.

[crazypotato]

I agree that cosmetic surgery creates an unhealthy sociological influence on society, and a ward, too. While everyone is an individual, we are all part of a culture. The OP is not saying that he thinks it will happen, he is saying that he watched this happen to his ward. Who can dispute that?

I will never forget a talk by a bishop/judge when I was a youth. He said everyone falls into sin the same way. First you tolerate, then you accept, then you embrace. Now I am not saying that augmentation is a sin, but it can be if you read the quotes by Elder Holland. And the same logic goes for lots of things that society used to think were wrong, and now we have embraced them.

Teenage girls look at grown women for examples. If we want them to follow the example of grown LDS women, wouldn't it be nice if while those women tried to look pretty, they didn't get too caught up in their appearance to the point of looking like a sex object all the time. If a teenager sees a women with breast cancer get implants, that is not going to negatively influence her. If she sees that most of the attractive women in the ward are getting implants, it will seem like a normal thing for people to do, and she will likely follow.

I am always looking at other women's clothes and hair styles and makeup to get ideas on what the current styles are. My husband wants me to be attractive. He likes that I exercise and do my hair the way he likes, and he wants me to dress cute, too. I can see younger girls, watching men admire the augmented ladies, and thinking that if they want a husband/boyfriend, that is something they will need to do, if all of the competition is doing it. Women are very competitive with each other in regards to appearance (generally speaking, yes there are exceptions.)

Edited August 2, 2010 by crazypotato

[Hemidakota]

It also happened in my ward where a clique group had this argumentation done. Some went as far with the facial features. This is why I was asking, does the OP live in my stake boundries. :)

[hordak]

Such a chain reaction occured because of a dysfunction in Ward interaction, and not because one single woman decided to get breast implants.

You should see the fallout when Brother Jones brings a mountain dew to a church dance:D

[crazypotato]

I am just amazed, that even when Elder Holland, in the most recent general conference, is specifically talking about women not going to extremes in their appearance because of the already negative cultural influences to look like a sex object, you will still find so many people that keep their opinion that it is no big deal and doesn't affect anyone else.

[Hemidakota]

If one really needs a culprit for dysfunctional behavior in a ward, why not blame the guy who just got a top of the line BMW. If the right cipher was used upsidedown, I suspect someone could see the number 666 in the letters B M W.

I would use 333 instead for new plate. BMW? Cheap car...opt for real man vehicle that stated you really have money and not the 80-percent who leases these cars; Buggati, Ferrari, or Lamborghini.

[yorkiebeebs]

Of course they were thinking more about themselves than they were of others. No one undergoes elective cosmetic surgery altruistically.

But the divisions in the ward you discuss are not the fault of the people who got breast implants. The breast implants were the catalyst that exposed a character flaw already evident in the people who contributed to the divisions.

It is up to each and every individual to be accepting, compassionate, and inclusive of all other people in the Church regardless of what stupid, petty, or poorly informed decisions they make. The divisions that grew in your ward are not the fault of breast implants, but the fault of people making a big deal about breast implants. So I can't condone your defense of the offended and the jealous. If they don't like that someone got breast implants, then they need to get over it.

I completely agree. People need to be discreet. I don't think it's necessary to tell anyone when you choose to do something so personal.

[havejoy]

I am just amazed, that even when Elder Holland, in the most recent general conference, is specifically talking about women not going to extremes in their appearance because of the already negative cultural influences to look like a sex object, you will still find so many people that keep their opinion that it is no big deal and doesn't affect anyone else.

What other people do that doesn't directly affect me is no big deal, at least to me it isn't. Most of the time I'm so busy just trying to keep myself where I need to be that I can't be bothered if someone gets a tattoo or a tummy tuck or bigger breasts. I see those things as outward signs of something that might be a problem for them but unless they confide in me about it I don't understand why worrying or judging them helps either one of us.

[crazypotato]

What other people do that doesn't directly affect me is no big deal, at least to me it isn't. Most of the time I'm so busy just trying to keep myself where I need to be that I can't be bothered if someone gets a tattoo or a tummy tuck or bigger breasts. I see those things as outward signs of something that might be a problem for them but unless they confide in me about it I don't understand why worrying or judging them helps either one of us.

There you go again, taking all of the fun out of judging other people! The nerve!

[Melissa569]

I am just amazed, that even when Elder Holland, in the most recent general conference, is specifically talking about women not going to extremes in their appearance because of the already negative cultural influences to look like a sex object, you will still find so many people that keep their opinion that it is no big deal and doesn't affect anyone else.

I agree that nobody should do anything just because society is pushing them to. But throwing out the influence to look like a sex object is not going to solve the problem of negativity toward women, nor is it the main cause. Even in cultures or religions where women dress very plain and conservative, still, they are seen negatively as lesser-valued "property" or "breeding tools".

The problem is not always the way women look. Its the attitude of the culture/religion about them.

[havejoy]

There you go again, taking all of the fun out of judging other people! The nerve!

I'm a legend in my spare time.

[crazypotato]

I agree that nobody should do anything just because society is pushing them to. But throwing out the influence to look like a sex object is not going to solve the problem of negativity toward women, nor is it the main cause. Even in cultures or religions where women dress very plain and conservative, still, they are seen negatively as lesser-valued "property" or "breeding tools".

The problem is not always the way women look. Its the attitude of the culture/religion about them.

Pres Holland just explicitly said that our western society over-sexualizes women. He just said that we are not to participate in that. Why would he even bother if it wasn't going to help women? I thought he was trying to help us women. The over-sexualization of women is currently a HUGE problem in our culture.

The property and breeding tools thing is a separate issue that NOW loves to throw around so that we will hate all men, instead of just some of them (see previously closed thread on feminism where Snow tried to kill me).

Edited August 2, 2010 by crazypotato

[pam]

I just love ya havejoy.

[Elgama]

All I know is if a woman having a breast implant affected my husband or my sons they would get a smack on the back of the head. If my daughter asked the answer would be not until she ccan pay for it herself and is old enough to give her own consent. If another woman had breast implants not sure why it should affect me, if it does its me and my insecurities that need looking at.

[Tarnished]

I see breast implants about the same way I see any body modification, as pretty much a waste of money, and something that is going to be a bit awkward as you get older. Breast implants come with their own problems and when not properly done have been known to kill the woman. Also if you have not yet had children once you have breast implants you can no longer breastfeed. There goes a ton of money you could have saved. Then as you get older and every other part of you gets saggy you still have that perky pair that just doesn't look natural on you. Awkward. All around it just seems weird and odd to me, but then again I don't really get the appeal of body modification. Much the same way I don't get the attraction of drug usage.

[FunkyTown]

Sometimes, people have body image issues.

That's the fault of the world.

Sometimes, those body image issues can be resolved by breast implants.

Most often they can not. If you want to stop breast implants, then help all women to feel beautiful regardless of what the world says..

If you can't do that, then don't be surprised that some people want to change the way they look.