My serious doubts about serious doubts, perhaps it was from my sinful life, but may they are just.

[riverogue]

Up until less than a year ago. I felt that I had a strong testimony about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith as a prophet, seer, revelator, and restorer of our faith, as well as all the latter-day prophets, and doctrines of the church. I believed this despite being raised by less active parents in a home where the gospel was rarely talked about, and with my parents whom did not care whether I was a temple recommend holder or not. Few periods did I regularly read the scriptures, with one of the exceptions during my mission.

Irregardless, I have always prayed more to God than I have spoken to everyone else in my life combined. I have never tasted alcohol, tobacco products, illegal drugs, a couple times coffee and tea. I was a virgin till my marrage in the temple. I was usually active, to semi-active in the church at other times. Although I have only had one short calling in nursery. The fact that I even attended, at all, is surprising because of social phobia, depression, that my past wife didn't like church, not being around other members while in the army, and because of my upbringing. I sometimes paid my tithe. I regularly met with my bishops.

I had rare occasions that I did look at porn, but have always struggled with a masturbation addiction for which I was very embarrassed. I shouldn't be embarrased now sharing this, because I learned that many temple recommend holding men at all levels of the church struggle with it too (as stated to me by a prominant sexual addiction therapist preferred by some General Authorities). This addiction, kept me from going to the temple from the time I was thirteen until my mission, and also after my mission. I was led through my addiction to be unchaste with women for a few months, soon after adivorce. This caused my disfellowship three years ago. I am still disfellowshipped because of my masturbation addiction. Besides all of this, I feel my worthiness has remained relatively at the same degree since my adolescent years. I think they call that damnation. However, I still feel the spirit often although it is not always with me.

Recently, I started college and have taken biology, environmental science, and ethics and values classes. I also have been doing a great deal of reading about church history, both from LDS publications, and from exmormons. Because of college and my readings on our history, serious doubts have been caste into my mind about the church and its teachings, Joseph Smith, and other latter-day prophets. What these have to do with, I need not get into it all, but I could seriously name hundreds of reasons why I personally think the church might not be true. I am shocked by things that I, and many others consider highly unethical, concerning both actions common to most Americans, actions considered just fine by even the most devout temple attenders, as well as questionable events in church history. I ask myself, how could the church be true if the prophets have not taken a stand on these issues.

So I decided the last month that I seriously need to get my own life in order, "cast the beam out of thine own eye", as Christ said. I started reading and praying everyday in earnest. I have been attending church every Sunday for the last two months. Every day I pray to know for a surety that the church is indeed true. I have been abstinate from my addiction for only several weeks, I've been keeping a chaste mind.

However, my doubts still linger. A part of me thinks, perhaps this church is best known as the most true church on Earth, instead of the one true church, with mistruths that may be taught as doctrines. I still feel that the basic principals of love, service, faith in Christ, repentance, obediance, humility, etc., taught at church is true, and is greatly emphasized in the church. However I have serious doubts about all of the necessary saving ordinances taught in the church, and about what the church teaches about the premortal life and the life after we die. That definately poses a problem for me in trying to get my temple recommend, and getting married in the temple again. But why would I even be concerned with this, unless deep down, I really do feel that it is true.

Anyway, for an example of one of my doubts: what would really keep a man and a woman, lets say in the Terrestial Kingdom, from having a relationship, and living with each other as if married? Would they no longer have their free agency? If they have perfect, reserrected bodies, wouldn't they still be able to have sex and have children? If not, that would be alot of wasted organs. I mean, almost every organ of men and women were created, to at least a small degree, in a fashion to support procreation. How can we be confined to an eternal state without agency or ability to use our bodies in a way in which it was designed for. Perhaps we could be confined to this state temporarily, and that there has got to be some additional challenges, corrections, or learning experiances for those who were less valiant in this current life, so that we could eventually progress to a state in which we would be allowed to use our bodies as they were designed. This would allow for eternal progression. But is eternal progression only for those who reach exaltation? And, if eternal progression is available to those who reach the lower kingdoms, is this eternal progression all encompassing in every aspect of their eternal existance?

Also, If the all powerful and loving God made a way for our eternal progression, then what about all other life? If you took all life that God ever made and put it in a 50 gallon barrel, filling it to the rim, humans would be like a tiny grain of rice sitting at the bottom. Would it be fair that all other life would never be able to have the emotions, wisdom, and experiances that we have, or that God has? Would it be fair for most of those lower forms of life to always be confined to a state in which they would never be able to have free agency, only operating by instinct and chemical processes? Wouldn't it be just for them to eventually have free agency so that they can progress in intelligence, abilities, and finally in wisdom and spirituality? What do we believe about the lives of animals after their deaths anyway. Take a look at a lion. So much about a lion is created to hunt and eat meat. Look at all of it's mannerisms, social behavior, it's build, camoflauge, organs for hunting and digesting meat. After it passes from it's current life, it would make sense to me that it would continue to hunt, kill, and procreate in heaven. But if it did kill, that would negate what we are taught about immortality. The lion, and all other species, would either have to completely change form, or be merely a living symbol of what it once was, for the rest of eternity.

I know that I need to cling to basic principals of the gospel such as love, faith, repentance, etc. Perhaps I need to accept all of the doctrines taught to me because I would not be willing to gamble away my future exaltation just because of doubts. Maybe I should keep an open mind as long as I cling to what I know to be true. What could it hurt anyway, to participate in doctrines I dont completely understand, like the saving ordinances. I guess I will have to have faith in those things, examine how they can be a growing experiance for me, even if they were false, and then I will have sure knowledge of the truth after I die.

Edited August 12, 2010 by riverogue

[pam]

I need not get into it all, but I could seriously name hundreds of reasons why the church might not be true

Let's clarify this so that those investigating and lurking will understand. What you should have said is.."I could seriously name hundreds of reasons why I think the church is not true."

There is a huge difference there.

The Church is true. I believe that without a shadow of a doubt.

[Guest Godless]

There's no "e" in cast. Sorry, that was bugging me.

[pam]

Take a look at a lion. So much about a lion is created to hunt and eat meat. Look at all of it's mannerisms, social behavior, it's build, camoflauge, organs for hunting and digesting meat. After it passes from it's current life, It would make sense for me that it wouldn't continue to hunt, kill, and procreate in heaven. But if it did eat meat, that would negate what we are taught about immortality. The lion, and all other species, would either have to completely change form, or be merely a living symbol of what it once was, for the rest of eternity.

The prophet Isaiah revealed that during the millennial reign, cruelty to all living creatures would be abolished:

“The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

“And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

“And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Gospel and Animals

[spamlds]

Dear brother,

It is painful to hear of your innermost struggles in such a public forum. The Internet certainly isn't the place to discuss your personal weaknesses and follies. Nothing goes away on the Internet. It is here forever. That's unfortunate.

Nevertheless, it is not without compassion that we consider your situation. Welcome to what are called the "buffetings of Satan." When a person places himself in spiritual danger, you give Satan unparalleled access to your life. He doesn't want you to be happy and he will lead you from one degree of unhappiness to another.

The doubts you feel come from that influence, coupled with the loss of the Spirit's companionship. It's to be expected. It's normal to have psychological defense mechanisms kick in. When you feel unworthy, it's easy to justify your mistakes and place the blame on the Church. Satan wants you to forsake the Church because it's the way to strengthen yourself against him. He'll tempt you to not believe in God and Christ. He'll try to confuse you with false statements from those who hate the Church and oppose it.

Is there a way out? Yes. It comes through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Everyone sins. Everyone makes mistakes. Everyone exercises bad judgment. We're flawed. We'll never be perfect on our own. When we consider the perfection of God, we should rightly sense that we fall short and are unworthy to be in his presence. That is true for all of us. Nobody gets to heaven on his own without Jesus Christ's help.

How do we claim his help and his mercy? We humbly admit that we can't do it on our own. We accept his death as the payment for what we've done wrong. There is no punishment we can suffer that will pay the price for our mistakes. We have to accept that Jesus did it for us.

Then we come to him. We realize that he willingly died to help us as individuals. He does not condemn us. He wants us to come to him and be healed. Pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ and thank him for all he has done. Ask to be forgiven, then press on. Don't belabor the point. Don't focus on the negative. Instead, focus on the blessings he gives you every day. Gratitude has incredible power to draw you near to God.

Study the Book of Mormon, lingering over those passages that teach of Christ. Enjoy them. Feel the hope they give you. Thank the Lord for them.

Last of all, this is the hardest part, begin to think of yourself as a righteous, forgiven person. Accept that the price has been paid for your mistakes. Press on. Be grateful for the Lord's forgiveness. If you screw up, start over immediately. Eventually, you will enjoy the peace of the Spirit in increasing doses. You'll come to cherish the companionship of the Spirit and you'll have less of a desire to do things that would offend it.

You can have strength to put aside web sites, media, movies, magazines, or whatever it is that might tempt you. If you see an immodestly dressed woman, a picture in a magazine, or a web site, replace the thoughts that come with a grateful thought. Don't focus on self-condemning thoughts. You can defeat temptation with thankfulness. Thank the Lord for your family, your friends, your job, your car, the food you have to eat, or anything. Just shift away from the tempting thought to a thought that expresses gratitude. I can't begin to tell you how powerful gratitude is in changing your life.

As you do this, you'll feel the power of the atonement changing your life. You'll feel worthy again. You'll feel forgiven. You'll still make mistakes, but you won't feel condemned. You'll feel the Lord's love and wish to return it and serve him. At that point, your bishop will see the change in your life. You can return to full fellowship in the Church.

Don't be discouraged. This is what the gospel is all about. It is about redemption. It's about the power of God touching your life. You can experience all that. Don't give up. Stay close to the Church and make friends with faithful members. You'll make it.

I know the Lord loves us and that being "born again" is a real experience. You can feel that, too. I know that Jesus Christ can save us from our sins and bring us peace.

[Moksha]

The lion, and all other species, would either have to completely change form, or be merely a living symbol of what it once was, for the rest of eternity.

At some point hopefully the lion will lay down with the lamb and you can make the choice of what to include in your belief system so that it is genuine for you. It is possible to go with Pascal's choice of hedging your religious bets by going with the side of God or you may choose outright. Just make sure it rings true to you and is not but an echo of what you've been told.

BTW, symbols are great.

[john doe]

Well, you tried for a whole month. If you think a whole 4 weeks is time enough to test God to see if His promises will come true, then I guess the test is over. You can feel justified in going back to your favorite sins with a clear conscience now, right?

[riverogue]

Well, you tried for a whole month. If you think a whole 4 weeks is time enough to test God to see if His promises will come true, then I guess the test is over. You can feel justified in going back to your favorite sins with a clear conscience now, right?

Who said I was giving up? I didn't write that in my text anywhere. Neither did I say that I was testing God, nor trying to appease my consciounce.

I thought about deleting my original post, but there are thousands of Latter Day Saints who can relate to my same struggles.

It will be interesting to see which ones here will try to burn me with their words.

Edited August 12, 2010 by riverogue

[Mute]

Up until less than a year ago. I felt that I had a strong testimony about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith as a prophet, seer, revelator, and restorer of our faith, as well as all the latter-day prophets, and doctrines of the church. I believed this despite being raised by less active parents in a home where the gospel was rarely talked about, and with my parents whom did not care whether I was a temple recommend holder or not. Few periods did I regularly read the scriptures, with one of the exceptions during my mission.

Irregardless, I have always prayed more to God than I have spoken to everyone else in my life combined. I have never tasted alcohol, tobacco products, illegal drugs, a couple times coffee and tea. I was a virgin till my marrage in the temple. I was usually active, to semi-active in the church at other times. Although I have only had one short calling in nursery. The fact that I even attended, at all, is surprising because of social phobia, depression, that my past wife didn't like church, not being around other members while in the army, and because of my upbringing. I sometimes paid my tithe. I regularly met with my bishops.

I had rare occasions that I did look at porn, but have always struggled with a masturbation addiction for which I was very embarrassed. I shouldn't be embarrased now sharing this, because I learned that many temple recommend holding men at all levels of the church struggle with it too (as stated to me by a prominant sexual addiction therapist preferred by some General Authorities). This addiction, kept me from going to the temple from the time I was thirteen until my mission, and also after my mission. I was led through my addiction to be unchaste with women for a few months, soon after adivorce. This caused my disfellowship three years ago. I am still disfellowshipped because of my masturbation addiction. Besides all of this, I feel my worthiness has remained relatively at the same degree since my adolescent years. I think they call that damnation. However, I still feel the spirit often although it is not always with me.

Recently, I started college and have taken biology, environmental science, and ethics and values classes. I also have been doing a great deal of reading about church history, both from LDS publications, and from exmormons. Because of college and my readings on our history, serious doubts have been caste into my mind about the church and its teachings, Joseph Smith, and other latter-day prophets. What these have to do with, I need not get into it all, but I could seriously name hundreds of reasons why I personally think the church might not be true. I am shocked by things that I, and many others consider highly unethical, concerning both actions common to most Americans, actions considered just fine by even the most devout temple attenders, as well as questionable events in church history. I ask myself, how could the church be true if the prophets have not taken a stand on these issues.

So I decided the last month that I seriously need to get my own life in order, "cast the beam out of thine own eye", as Christ said. I started reading and praying everyday in earnest. I have been attending church every Sunday for the last two months. Every day I pray to know for a surety that the church is indeed true. I have been abstinate from my addiction for only several weeks, I've been keeping a chaste mind.

However, my doubts still linger. A part of me thinks, perhaps this church is best known as the most true church on Earth, instead of the one true church, with mistruths that may be taught as doctrines. I still feel that the basic principals of love, service, faith in Christ, repentance, obediance, humility, etc., taught at church is true, and is greatly emphasized in the church. However I have serious doubts about all of the necessary saving ordinances taught in the church, and about what the church teaches about the premortal life and the life after we die. That definately poses a problem for me in trying to get my temple recommend, and getting married in the temple again. But why would I even be concerned with this, unless deep down, I really do feel that it is true.

Anyway, for an example of one of my doubts: what would really keep a man and a woman, lets say in the Terrestial Kingdom, from having a relationship, and living with each other as if married? Would they no longer have their free agency? If they have perfect, reserrected bodies, wouldn't they still be able to have sex and have children? If not, that would be alot of wasted organs. I mean, almost every organ of men and women were created, to at least a small degree, in a fashion to support procreation. How can we be confined to an eternal state without agency or ability to use our bodies in a way in which it was designed for. Perhaps we could be confined to this state temporarily, and that there has got to be some additional challenges, corrections, or learning experiances for those who were less valiant in this current life, so that we could eventually progress to a state in which we would be allowed to use our bodies as they were designed. This would allow for eternal progression. But is eternal progression only for those who reach exaltation? And, if eternal progression is available to those who reach the lower kingdoms, is this eternal progression all encompassing in every aspect of their eternal existance?

Also, If the all powerful and loving God made a way for our eternal progression, then what about all other life? If you took all life that God ever made and put it in a 50 gallon barrel, filling it to the rim, humans would be like a tiny grain of rice sitting at the bottom. Would it be fair that all other life would never be able to have the emotions, wisdom, and experiances that we have, or that God has? Would it be fair for most of those lower forms of life to always be confined to a state in which they would never be able to have free agency, only operating by instinct and chemical processes? Wouldn't it be just for them to eventually have free agency so that they can progress in intelligence, abilities, and finally in wisdom and spirituality? What do we believe about the lives of animals after their deaths anyway. Take a look at a lion. So much about a lion is created to hunt and eat meat. Look at all of it's mannerisms, social behavior, it's build, camoflauge, organs for hunting and digesting meat. After it passes from it's current life, it would make sense to me that it would continue to hunt, kill, and procreate in heaven. But if it did kill, that would negate what we are taught about immortality. The lion, and all other species, would either have to completely change form, or be merely a living symbol of what it once was, for the rest of eternity.

I know that I need to cling to basic principals of the gospel such as love, faith, repentance, etc. Perhaps I need to accept all of the doctrines taught to me because I would not be willing to gamble away my future exaltation just because of doubts. Maybe I should keep an open mind as long as I cling to what I know to be true. What could it hurt anyway, to participate in doctrines I dont completely understand, like the saving ordinances. I guess I will have to have faith in those things, examine how they can be a growing experiance for me, even if they were false, and then I will have sure knowledge of the truth after I die.

I would recommend not going to former member sites to find answers. One thing I found in reading those is many of them were very angry at the lds faith and many of them exaggerated the truth. They had no interest in getting over their anger and feelings of bitterness. The worst part is I found many of the things they said were taken out of context and distort the truth. They had a way of putting it in the worst possible light. Read about the subjects that bother you but be careful where you get your information. If a subject bothers you, I'd recommend making sure you hear the lds stance on it first. Then you can decide what you think. That way you can get the correct understanding.

LDS FAIR Apologetics Homepage

Answers About Mormons and Mormon Belief (LDS FAQ - Latter-day Saints)

If you want to learn about a lot of common topics people bring up against the lds faith, I'd recommend two main sites. These are two sites I found very helpful. They are apologetic sites for the LDS faith. The reason I'd recommend these is because they do list scripture references to support what they say. See if you agree with them.

Masturbation is something most men do or have done. I've never heard of someone being disfellowshipped for it though. You have to decide what you believe is right or wrong regarding that.

In the end, you have to decide what you think is best. I'd recommend praying, reading scriptures and continuing your search of church history and what ever else you wanted to know about but I would not continue to go to former lds sites. As for how long until you get an answer or if you get an answer, well it's up to you to do what you think is sufficient. If you can say to yourself "I feel I've put in the work to know" then perhaps that's enough. Be honest with yourself. Only you know if you are being sincere. In my honest opinion it sounded like you were leaning towards leaving. Make sure it's the choice for you before you decide.

I heard something from my father once. He said the Lord isn't going to tell you if the church is true unless you're willing to follow it. That doesn't mean you're not willing because you've struggled with masturbation and being chaste. In the Bible it talks about everyone sinning or making mistakes. Decide what you think is right and go with that. I wish you the best of luck with your decision.

[Mute]

Well, you tried for a whole month. If you think a whole 4 weeks is time enough to test God to see if His promises will come true, then I guess the test is over. You can feel justified in going back to your favorite sins with a clear conscience now, right?

I can not believe you would say that to someone. That is only going to push someone away from the LDS faith. This is a common error of belief many lds members seem to have about those who doubt, question or leave the lds faith. I can guarantee you if someone heard this that was doubting it would only help to push them farther away. Many people who leave or question the lds faith do not do so because they want to sin. Everyone in the world makes mistakes. Who are we to judge?

[Intrigued]

Well, you tried for a whole month. If you think a whole 4 weeks is time enough to test God to see if His promises will come true, then I guess the test is over. You can feel justified in going back to your favorite sins with a clear conscience now, right?

Seems like kind of a rude response to someone who obviously put quite a bit of effort into the thread. Send Ra some prayer-mail for me since you have that divine connection and all. I've been working on talking to him for 3-4 weeks now.. he hasn't called me back.

[skippy740]

D&C 63:16

And verily I say unto you, as I have said before, he that looketh on a woman to lust after her, or if any shall commit adultery in their hearts, they shall not have the Spirit, but shall deny the faith and shall fear.

It's an interesting chapter in the D&C. But it's a good WARNING. A warning that such activity, if unchecked and unrepentant of, will cause one to lose their faith (and testimony) and begin to fear.

As far as John Doe's comment, I believe he's employing a "Socratic" method of logic. As I've heard others, he is "demonstrating absurdity by being absurd". You'll notice that Riverogue's immediate response (and resolve) was that he was NOT "giving up". This is a good thing. It was a "test" to see how resolved he really is. Not to prove to US - but to himself.

[Boris_natasha]

Brother riverogue, don't give up on yourself or your journey in life. I was going through very similar doubts a long time ago. I allowed those doubts to make me stray from the church. Stay in the LDS church. Keep learning and growing.

[john doe]

I can not believe you would say that to someone. That is only going to push someone away from the LDS faith. This is a common error of belief many lds members seem to have about those who doubt, question or leave the lds faith. I can guarantee you if someone heard this that was doubting it would only help to push them farther away. Many people who leave or question the lds faith do not do so because they want to sin. Everyone in the world makes mistakes. Who are we to judge?

Really? Guess what? I have my favorite sins too. They're right there, lurking in the background, waiting for me to acknowledge them and give them another whirl. They hang out at all my old haunts waiting for me to take them back. Sometimes I give in to them, mostly I resist their draw. What I don't do, is every time they come my way I don't invite them to come in and talk about them all the time. I don't entertain them, in my mind or my heart. I toss them aside as quickly as possible. You can choose to guilt yourself out of sinning again, or you can positively think your way through temptation. I choose to fill my mind with positive things and eventually I realize that sin has put itself in the rearview mirror and is fading in the distance. But they know that if I dwell on them long enough, I'll eventually come back to them, which is why it's important for me not to think on them for very long.

As for judging, here's another reality: when you toss your sins out on the internet for the entire world who has Google to see, you're going to get judged. This whole 'who am I to judge?' garbage is just that. We all make judgements, every day, all the time. I judge the places I go, the people I meet, the road I drive, the food I eat. I try to use my best judgement in my every day decisions. Don't you think it's about time we all tried to use good judgement? I've made judgements about you, and you've passed judgement on me as well. Who are you to judge me?

I could go on, but I know you'll find some point about it that you don't want to hear, and cast it aside as useless, harsh, and judgmental, so I'll stop.

[Wingnut]

There's no "e" in cast. Sorry, that was bugging me.

There is if you're referring to a caste system.

[skippy740]

JST Matt:7:1-2

1 Now these are the words which Jesus taught his disciples that they should say unto the people.

2 Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged: but judge righteous judgment.

We are ALL allowed to judge.

[skippy740]

BTW, COLLEGE will mess anybody up!

All this "intellectual mumbo jumbo" crap that they spew - thinking that they are better than everybody else... because they think that they think better and that they ARE better.

A college's thoughts on ethics doesn't necessarily share the LORD'S view on ethics. They'll make a good argument and be very crafty with their words, but beware to guard the things that you know are true through personal revelation and that the Holy Spirit has taught you.

Here's a good example of what I mean:

A United States Marine was attending some college courses between assignments. He had completed missions in Iraq and Afghanistan. One of the courses had a professor who was an avowed atheist and a member of the ACLU.

One day the professor shocked the class when he came in. He looked to the ceiling and flatly stated, "God, if you are real, then I want you to knock me off this platform. I'll give you exactly 15 minutes."

The lecture room fell silent. You could hear a pin drop. Ten minutes went by and the professor proclaimed, "Here I am God. I'm still waiting."

It got down to the last couple of minutes when the Marine got out of his chair, went up to the professor, and cold-cocked him; knocking him off the platform. The professor was out cold. The Marine went back to his seat and sat there, silently. The other students were shocked and stunned and sat there looking on in silence. The professor eventually came to, noticeably shaken, looked at the Marine and asked, "What's the matter with you? Why did you do that?"

The Marine calmly replied, "God was too busy today protecting America's soldiers who are protecting your right to say stupid crap and act like a jerk."

"So He sent me."

SEMPER FI

Here's another example from a story back in 2006:

Students at Calif college ban Pledge of Allegiance By Dan Whitcomb

Fri Nov 10, 1:53 PM ET

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Student leaders at a California college have touched off a furor by banning the Pledge of Allegiance at their meetings, saying they see no reason to publicly swear loyalty to God and the U.S. government.

The move by Orange Coast College student trustees, the latest clash over patriotism and religion in American schools, has infuriated some of their classmates -- prompting one young woman to loudly recite the pledge in front of the board on Wednesday night in defiance of the rule.

"America is the one thing I'm passionate about and I can't let them take that away from me," 18-year-old political science major Christine Zoldos told Reuters.

"The fact that they have enough power to ban one of the most valued traditions in America is just horrible," Zoldos said, adding she would attend every board meeting to salute the flag.

The move was led by three recently elected student trustees, who ran for office wearing revolutionary-style berets and said they do not believe in publicly swearing an oath to the American flag and government at their school. One student trustee voted against the measure, which does not apply to other student groups or campus meetings.

The ban follows a 2002 ruling by a federal appeals court in San Francisco that said forcing school children to recite the pledge was unconstitutional because of the phrase "under God." The U.S. Supreme Court struck down the ruling on procedural grounds but left the door open for another challenge.

"That ('under God') part is sort of offensive to me," student trustee Jason Ball, who proposed the ban, told Reuters. "I am an atheist and a socialist, and if you know your history, you know that 'under God' was inserted during the McCarthy era and was directly designed to destroy my ideology."

Ball said the ban largely came about because the trustees didn't want to publicly vow loyalty to the American government before their meetings. "Loyalty ought to be something the government earns through performance, not through reciting a pledge," he said.

Martha Parham, a spokeswoman for the Coast Community College District, said her office had no standing on the student board and took no position on the flag salute ban.

"If their personal belief is that they don't want to say the Pledge of Allegiance, the district certainly isn't going to dictate what they do," she said.

More than 28,000 students attend the community college, located in conservative Orange County, California, south of Los Angeles.

[HiJolly]

I've been there, brother. My heart goes out to you. Believe that God loves you. Believe that the Church is God's way of helping us get to the point of being with the Spirit, and eventually seeing Him.

The Church is true, but it is not flawless nor perfect; same thing with its history and membership. The Church is true, but not without problems. It is still the greatest influence for good in the world, barring the Holy Ghost & the spirit of God themselves.

"We do not receive wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness which no one else can make for us, which no one else can spare us."

-- Marcel Proust

"Oh Lord God, deliver us from this prison, almost as it were, of paper, pen and ink, and of a crooked, broken, scattered and imperfect language"

-- Joseph Smith (letter to William W. Phelps, Nov. 27, 1832)

"It is not as a child that I believe and confess Jesus Christ. My hosanna is born of a furnace of doubt."

-- Doestoevsky

HiJolly

[spamlds]

I can not believe you would say that to someone. That is only going to push someone away from the LDS faith. This is a common error of belief many lds members seem to have about those who doubt, question or leave the lds faith. I can guarantee you if someone heard this that was doubting it would only help to push them farther away. Many people who leave or question the lds faith do not do so because they want to sin. Everyone in the world makes mistakes. Who are we to judge?

Agreed. Here is a brother who is struggling for help and encouragement to cling to the "iron rod." I have little patience for anti-Mormons or preachers of false religions who try to steer latter-day saints from our religion. However, when a brother is drowning, throw him a line not an anchor!

Dear brother, hang in there. Don't listen to those who want to destroy your faith. Listen to the voice of the Good Shepherd. He loves you and he has power to save you! Just don't let go!

[Elgama]

Have you had a blessing? Have you prayed? What does God have to say about it?

If God says the Church isn't true then go with it, if not you have to decide what your testimoney was of, was it of God or was it of the Church?

[Mute]

Really? Guess what? I have my favorite sins too. They're right there, lurking in the background, waiting for me to acknowledge them and give them another whirl. They hang out at all my old haunts waiting for me to take them back. Sometimes I give in to them, mostly I resist their draw. What I don't do, is every time they come my way I don't invite them to come in and talk about them all the time. I don't entertain them, in my mind or my heart. I toss them aside as quickly as possible. You can choose to guilt yourself out of sinning again, or you can positively think your way through temptation. I choose to fill my mind with positive things and eventually I realize that sin has put itself in the rearview mirror and is fading in the distance. But they know that if I dwell on them long enough, I'll eventually come back to them, which is why it's important for me not to think on them for very long.

As for judging, here's another reality: when you toss your sins out on the internet for the entire world who has Google to see, you're going to get judged. This whole 'who am I to judge?' garbage is just that. We all make judgements, every day, all the time. I judge the places I go, the people I meet, the road I drive, the food I eat. I try to use my best judgement in my every day decisions. Don't you think it's about time we all tried to use good judgement? I've made judgements about you, and you've passed judgement on me as well. Who are you to judge me?

I could go on, but I know you'll find some point about it that you don't want to hear, and cast it aside as useless, harsh, and judgmental, so I'll stop.

Moderators shouldn't act like this on a site called LDS.NET The site lds.net represents the church and if you're going to represent it (whether it's official or not) you should act as an example for lds. The way you talk to people sends a terrible message and makes people think lds people are judgmental and prideful.

LDS.org - Liahona Article - May You Have Courage

Thomas S. Monson, “May You Have Courage,” Liahona, May 2009, 123–27

"Unfortunately, there are those who feel it necessary to criticize and to belittle others. You have, no doubt, been with such people, as you will be in the future. My dear young friends, we are not left to wonder what our behavior should be in such situations. In the Sermon on the Mount, the Savior declared, “Judge not.”1 At a later time He admonished, “Cease to find fault one with another.”2 It will take real courage when you are surrounded by your peers and feeling the pressure to participate in such criticisms and judgments to refrain from joining in."

LDS.org - Ensign Article - “Judge Not†and Judging

Dallin H. Oaks, “‘Judge Not’ and Judging,” Ensign, Aug 1999, 7

"In the intermediate judgments we must make, we should take care to judge righteously. We should seek the guidance of the Spirit in our decisions. We should limit our judgments to our own stewardships. Whenever possible we should refrain from judging people until we have an adequate knowledge of the facts. So far as possible, we should judge circumstances rather than people. In all our judgments we should apply righteous standards."

LDS.org - Ensign Article - “Judge Not, That Ye Be Not Judgedâ€

N. Eldon Tanner, “‘Judge Not, That Ye Be Not Judged’,” Ensign, Jul 1972, 34

"Jesus Christ, some 2,000 years ago, realizing man’s tendency to make unrighteous judgment, said:

“Judge not, that ye be not judged.

“For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

“And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

“Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

“Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.” (Matt. 7:1–5.)

It seems he is saying that unless we are without fault, we are not qualified to judge.

The reason, therefore, that we cannot judge is obvious. We cannot see what is in the heart. We do not know motives, although we impute motives to every action we see. They may be pure while we think they are improper.

It is not possible to judge another fairly unless you know his desires, his faith, and his goals. Because of a different environment, unequal opportunity, and many other things, people are not in the same position. One may start at the top and the other at the bottom, and they may meet as they are going in opposite directions. Someone has said that it is not where you are but the direction in which you are going that counts; not how close you are to failure or success but which way you are headed. How can we, with all our weaknesses and frailties, dare to arrogate to ourselves the position of a judge? At best, man can judge only what he sees; he cannot judge the heart or the intention, or begin to judge the potential of his neighbor.

When we try to judge people, which we should not do, we have a great tendency to look for and take pride in finding weaknesses and faults, such as vanity, dishonesty, immorality, and intrigue. As a result, we see only the worst side of those being judged."

You don't understand judging. You seem to think because it says to judge righteous judgment that all judgment is allowed. What you're doing isn't righteous judgment. This is unrighteous judgment. You seem to think that because it's ok to judge food that it's ok to make judgments on a person's motives and thoughts which you don't know. You're not supposed to judge people and if you do judge people you make righteous judgments.

You should be a better example than this as a moderator.

You say you have to make judgments all the time but not about people we don't. We can make judgments about if we're right or wrong or where we go or don't go. And just because someone comes on the internet does not give you the right to make harsh judgments about them. People come to the internet because they have a better chance of getting answers and because there is a greater amount of people who have knowledge on the internet compared to one or two friends who may or may not have even read the scriptures.

[Maureen]

Well, you tried for a whole month. If you think a whole 4 weeks is time enough to test God to see if His promises will come true, then I guess the test is over. You can feel justified in going back to your favorite sins with a clear conscience now, right?

...I have my favorite sins too. They're right there, lurking in the background, waiting for me to acknowledge them and give them another whirl. They hang out at all my old haunts waiting for me to take them back. Sometimes I give in to them, mostly I resist their draw. What I don't do, is every time they come my way I don't invite them to come in and talk about them all the time. I don't entertain them, in my mind or my heart. I toss them aside as quickly as possible. You can choose to guilt yourself out of sinning again, or you can positively think your way through temptation. I choose to fill my mind with positive things and eventually I realize that sin has put itself in the rearview mirror and is fading in the distance. But they know that if I dwell on them long enough, I'll eventually come back to them, which is why it's important for me not to think on them for very long.

Like your positive, uplifting reply to this thread?

As for judging, here's another reality: when you toss your sins out on the internet for the entire world who has Google to see, you're going to get judged.

If you found the OP's confessions distasteful you didn't have to read them.

This whole 'who am I to judge?' garbage is just that. We all make judgements, every day, all the time. I judge the places I go, the people I meet, the road I drive, the food I eat. I try to use my best judgement in my every day decisions. Don't you think it's about time we all tried to use good judgement? I've made judgements about you, and you've passed judgement on me as well. Who are you to judge me?

The difference is, your choice of what soup to eat isn't going to hurt anyone but unfairly judging someone by misinterpreting what they say, only serves to make you look bad and not positive at all, like you profess.

I could go on, but I know you'll find some point about it that you don't want to hear, and cast it aside as useless, harsh, and judgmental, so I'll stop.

You didn't stop soon enough.

M.

[beefche]

Thread is closed.