High School Mormons vs. Skeptic

[antoine1830]

I recently watched this scene take place, and I put this thread in Youth & Seminary because the context of this event is very important to understanding the situation the lds kids were in.

Keep in mind that as high schoolers, these Mormons are developing in their knowledge of not only their faith but also their general knowledge of our world, and so many of their responses to the skeptic would have been different if the same scene were to have occurred between, perhaps, a theologian and a skeptic.

This skeptic had apparently been researching lds for some time, and had a knowledge of doctrine, core beliefs, and many other aspects of lds that the missionaries he regularly met with described as "impressive". I know this skeptic personally and he is very studious, and could be considered among the smartest of his peers. His exploration of lds from what everyone could see is whole-hearted and honest, as he seemed very determined to know of the truth.

One of the skeptic's friends was an lds convert of 16 years of age, just like him, and they had known each other for several years through school and the many classes they shared. Many lds kids speculate that he once had a crush on her and this led him to begin exploring lds. Like the skeptic, she is very smart and had a natural gift of learning.

The skeptic talked with this lds convert girl, who many both at school and in her ward saw as an even better mormon than many who had been raised lds, and apparently she described the validity of the Book of Mormon as being "even more true than a math book with the answers in it". This painted a picture with the skeptic of the truth and power of the Book of Mormon that he apparently found rather interesting.

For several months, the skeptic continued to research lds and developed deep questions that often when asked to his peers went unanswered, and this was frustrating to him. He tried asking the missionaries, but as school got harder, he lost time to meet with the missionaries.

This is where the intense scene took place. I will try to recreate his words as best as I can.

The skeptic had not talked to very many of the lds kids at school for a while about lds. He had been reading, however, the Book of Mormon and had been praying, which he continually told his Mormon friends about very happily. One day, he walked up to the table of Mormons in the cafeteria and pulled out a math book. He opened up to an easy algebraic problem in the book whose answer was obvious and could be solved mentally. I don't remember which problem it was, but it was very easy like x - 9= 0. He pulled out a lid of some sort he had poked a hole through and said "I am going to find out the answer to this problem. I whole-heartedly wish to find the answer to this problem, because my grade depends on it!" He then stared at the problem through the lid which was obviously a mockery of a seer stone, and then announced "It has been personally revealed to me that the answer is 26!". This was not the right answer to the problem, and many Mormons corrected him. He responded by saying "The gods of Arabian algebra have personally told me this! I have faith that this is the answer! You can't tell me what's right and wrong! Why should I have knowledge of the 'right answer'? That would destroy my faith! Not only do I have faith that this is the right answer, but I also know it's the right answer"

At this point, you can imagine that many of the Mormons had caught onto this and were fairly shocked. Yet, the skeptic continued.

"You see, the gods of Arabian algebra have personally revealed these answers to me. It may go against the normal rules of math you guys think is right, but look at it this way: The arabians invented algebra, but they got conquered and many died off! Man then corrupted math, and the arabians could not be on earth to pass on this math power! Why do you think there are so many versions of math books? The gods of algebra have told me that I can restore the true math to the world!"

This further upset the Mormon kids, but many did not know how to respond to this other than saying "Stop making fun of us!" or "Stop persecuting us!". The latter of the two caused the skeptic to laugh and he then said "Persecuting? Because sooooo many Mormons have been persecuted, kinda like how the jews were in the holocaust, or muslims during the inquisition? My bad!". The lds convert girl then chimed in and said "Many mormons died on the way to Utah! That counts!" and the skeptic then replied with "But does that make them martyrs? Did they die for their faith, with the mentality that they are giving up their lives for the defense of their religion like suicide bombers do every day? Didn't think so!"

The convert girl was then flustered, and could not defend her stance.

The skeptic went even further and said "Look, you guys can think I'm wrong about this answer to the math problem, but I have faith that I'm right, and you don't even know how happy this has made me. I am confident that I'll get a good grade on the test using this new algebra. The teacher just grades for completion anyways, I mean, I participate, and I do all my homework, so no matter how wrong it is, I'll still get a good grade. I humbly bear this testimony unto you" ending with a very mockingly ignorant smile. Most mormons laughed back at him and said "Yeah go try that, you're going to fail the test!" and he then said back "Stop persecuting me! 2+2=5 and that comforts me! The gods of algebra told me to look into my heart for the answers, and not to use reason and science. Who cares about all of the evidence against my math that you think you have! Whenever something bad in math comes up, I have a stupor of thought and I use doublethink, and it just leaves my mind" all said with the same cocky mocking grin. I found it particularly offensive how he used Orwellian references against lds.

He walked away, and many lds kids just sat back in shock, not knowing how to respond to such defying arrogance.

What should the lds kids do to help the skeptic, the low hanging fruit. It is obvious that he is definitely in a struggle and needs guidance.

How should the lds kids respond to this? What should they do about the skeptic?

[pam]

Article of Faith #11

Sometimes the best defense is no defense at all. The kids should just wish the skeptic well on the math test.

[antoine1830]

I think that in a way, the skeptic was wishing the lds kids well on their "math test" possibly a metaphor for the judgement of God, that the lds kids beliefs will not allow them to do well on the "math test" with God, as shown by his rant on the completion grade on the test and stuff. That was a tough part to listen to

[pam]

I understood the metaphor.

It is always difficult to hear your own religion and beliefs mocked or torn apart. I've had people do the same to me as an adult. Most of the time I just smile at them and thank them for their opinion and wish them a good day.

There will always be those that have their opinion set no matter what you say or do. But sometimes the non action has a more lasting impression than going into a defense mode.

That's easier said than done. To me it's easier in person to do that than say here on an LDS forum.

[Soulsearcher]

For several months, the skeptic continued to research lds and developed deep questions that often when asked to his peers went unanswered, and this was frustrating to him. He tried asking the missionaries, but as school got harder, he lost time to meet with the missionaries.

While I'm not overly a fan of how he pointed it out and handled the situations, the above comment does kinda give a lot of insight. You've said this is a smart honest kind who was trying to get real answers and understand. When i was investigating i did a lot of reading, talking and investigating for years before i sat through the missionary lessons. Nothing super deep but enough that i knew enough to usually talk on par to many life time members and ever make them stop and think now and then. When i asked honest questions to either the members i knew or the missionaries teaching me and they couldn't answer them, or wouldn't answer them it lead to more questions and a lot more doubt. Now i get that some people honestly don't know answers, but when I'd ask and get brushed off I'd go look and search out some things, and when i asked the members or missionaries about it later they tended to be embarrassed and would say " oh...that's what you meant" or " oh, now i remember", it was quite clear they had always knew what i was talking about, but wanted to avoid the topics. It does a lot to weaken trust when you can't trust the people teaching you and if the people who should be teaching and answering questions aren't doing it, you'll search out your own answers, and usually have a lil bit of a chip on your shoulder for either being lied to or ignored.

How should they handle it? I think they botched up the missionary opportunity. If they didn't know the answers for him " lets learn together" works real well. if they were uncomfortable with the questions it looks like there is something to hide. Not sure a great deal can be done now, the damage is done and not sure it can be fixed. Possibly it's a good learning experience for the future. If they have to deal with him more i agree with pam, be kind and understanding and turn the other cheek, set the example as it were.

[Just_A_Guy]

Frankly, it sounds like this kid was being a real . . . well, if I wrote the word I'm thinking, I'd probably get myself banned from LDS.net. But anyways, I don't see much point in attempting to "help" him at this point--he's made up his mind, he's a smart . . . donkey, and he thinks he knows everything.

As for the argument itself: Cut away the sophistry and the kid's basically saying "prove there is a God". To which I would simply say, as Alma said to Korihor: Prove that there isn't.

One can attack the arguments religionists pose in favor of the existence of a God, but I don't see how one can really argue positively that God does not exist without adopting the same kind of dogma that one ridicules the religionists for using. The only truly rational argument one can make is "we don't know", and I doubt that's the conclusion this kid is trying to lead his Mormon audience to.

Edited September 18, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[Fourth_Horseman]

He pretty much sumed up the "translation" of the book of mormon in one go. Amazing what conclusions a man comes to when he truly thinks about a religion. I'm not saying there isn't a god, I'm just syaing it should each mans own responsiblity to find "God" without having a certain doctrine thrust upon him.

[Kerasene]

They should just ignore him. If people live in fear or live by what other people think of them, they're just going to be upset because they care so needlessly about it. If they don't care, it won't affect them. I've learnt that after quite some time, it's great when you can do something and not feel bad.. or not feel the need to defend or prove yourself to anyone else.

He's clearly being horrible and will fail the maths test, I highly doubt that he'll answer the questions in the test like that, it was all a statement to offend.

[TL10]

Here's my perspective, but first of all, let me talk about myself for a moment.

I have a slight provokable temper. While I have been pretty angry at times, I have never been in a rage/full out angry-nuke attitude, though I have been close too many times. The only thing that stops me is my personal self concious Jimminy Cricket that always gives me guilt trips when I think of something morally wrong.

This, got me really close to getting really, really angry. The only thing that kept me cool was the fact that I wasn't there in person.

Yeah, I know we need to be slow to anger and all that, but I'm a guy who believes strongly in respecting others, the golden rule, yadda yadda yadda. I could not-would not stand to something like this and let it continue without some sort of intervention. Probobly the biggest reaction from me would be me scolding him for dissing on us and all that a la Billy Mays, most certainly followed by a strong testimony of the church.

I'll be frank here, if this was at my High School, the guy would be pretty much shunned by society, given the fact that there's a large percentage of LDS kids like me attending it. Alot of the teachers, classmates, non-members know who we are, and there's plenty who take a liking to us. Ever since I've started high school, I haven't seen any of my LDS friends being mocked at for our religion.

I know there's going to be comments in response like, "You should be more tolarant" and such, and in my head, I'm kinda saying the same things too to myself, but I compare this to a dogfight in a jet fighter, you don't have the time and luxury to make the right/perfect choice, you only have a split second of making one. And in real life, I'm just not sure if everyone (including me) can make a rational choice in a situation like this.

[skippy740]

The problem is that math can be proven. It is quantifiable.

The gospel requires faith. Faith in things that are not seen, which are true.

[MStephens]

This may be a situation when the best way to answer the skeptic may simply be to ask:

What are you willing to sacrifice for this answer that you insist upon?

Joseph Smith went through a ton of stuff because of his testimony. (insert recital of what he and the saints went through here)

These Mormon teens are willing to stick to their beliefs even when mocked by this skeptic.

[Blackmarch]

I woulda told the skeptic that he should go burn or dump all his math books since they obviouisly had false information, and would lead him astray from the truth that had been revealed to him, as well as any of his books that had this false math in it.

[Guest tbaird22]

I would of said... "More educated people than yourself have tried to prove the church wrong and while your mathematical metaphor is amusing it accomplishes nothing. Theres five minutes of my life ill never get back."

[prisonchaplain]

The problem is that math can be proven. It is quantifiable.

The gospel requires faith. Faith in things that are not seen, which are true.

The other problem is a total lack of nuance. We pray for confirmation from the Holy Spirit, but the Apostle Paul also enjoins us to "reason together." Christianity in general, and your faith in particular, has some sophisticated philosophy and logic to it. At some point faith is required, but pure materialistic science vs. 100% blind faith is an absolute false dichotamy.