Transgender

[Soulsearcher]

so a little more knoledge and a few hundred more years of enlightenment will end the religous stigmas on transgender people?

Hey they finally admitted the world was round didn't they, only took a few deaths and such to get that far

[Hala401]

Please delete this if I am over the line.

I read an article that said there was great displeasure because of our involvement with prop 8 in California, and the article said that we had lost around half our membership over it. I was greatly astonished. But a long time LDS member said that those who left felt that taking such a stand was not consistent with LDS values.

Sunday in Relief Society, we sang a song, I think around #23 or something whose lyrics repeated "judge no one". Some of you long time members can help me with this, please?

The thing about the Atonement is that the sins of ALL are forgiven, not just your favorite Investigator, but all who repent are forgiven.

In my life, I have seen it become common for everyone to fly, seen the disappearance of the 4 party line, finally gotten running water in the house, stopped having to carry a lantern out to the outhouse at 3:00 AM, stopped parking the car on a hill because the 6 volt battery would not always start the motor, seen television tragically miss its potiential as an educational tool, seen young women constantly using what I would call a shirt as a dress, and oh so many things. I now have hearing aids which blue tooth to my phone, a car which gets over 30 mpg, seen apendectomies done through a one inch incision, seen surgery done on a baby in the uterous, and seen people begin to realise that Autistic children are often more intelligent than us, seen spina bifida repaired, and oh so many other things.

It is my devout hope and prayer that one day these Intersexed and Transgender folk will one day no longer be ostracised, and those who love Heavenly Father will rise to the task and begin to treat all people with love and tenderness.

As a new member, I want this church to excell where other faiths have failed and for the world to look to the LDS for healing and wisdom.

Much peace

Hala

[giantCplus]

It is my devout hope and prayer that one day these Intersexed and Transgender folk will one day no longer be ostracised, and those who love Heavenly Father will rise to the task and begin to treat all people with love and tenderness.

As a new member, I want this church to excell where other faiths have failed and for the world to look to the LDS for healing and wisdom.

Much peace

Hala

you hit the nail on the head with what you said. I agree with you 100%. I want to educate people about this condition so they can not hide behind ignorance. I have stayed in a previous post that...

This forum I think was intended as a place for people to ask questions and get answers. Not debate doctrine on a topic that very little has been revealed. The spirit will not stay when there is contention, even in a place like this. Let’s keep this forum a place where someone can feel comfortable asking questions.

I do not know if there are still any other transgender people following this thread, but I have seen some comments here that would scare many off. I hope that we can change the tone of this forum to one of understanding, and not ignorance.

[FunkyTown]

Having done volunteer work in shelters and aid agencies, I know several people in the GBLT spectrum, and none of them ever told me that they just decided they'd be gay or what ever that day when they got up.

I would assume not. Usually, there's a reason why someone makes a statement. Since nobody ever suggested such a ludicrous thing, can you clarify what you're trying to get at here?

[Hala401]

I would assume not. Usually, there's a reason why someone makes a statement. Since nobody ever suggested such a ludicrous thing, can you clarify what you're trying to get at here?

From 1974 to 2004, I was an evangelical christian. In that time I saw people in the GBLT set be treated really awfully, and at first, I did not question their treatment, having been counselled that these folk had yielded to satan by their own wicked natures. It is difficult to say this in LDS parlance but I listened to a lot of hate, anger and false doctrine coming from the pulpit by those who practiced Priest craft. I will qualify this statement by saying that I also learned much good too. Sadly, the lesbian and gay folk were preached against, damned to hell, and generally mistreated. And that began my separation from Christianity, because I did not feel like I was qualified to judge anyone, and was at times told that I was soft on sin.

I committed sin and was thrown out of my church, divorced, disowned by the family, lost my job, friends and very nearly forced to live on the street. So in those years, I learned a lot about mercy, forgiveness, and self loathing. Qualifying but not giving lurid details, I have no police record and have never been arrested, and that is all the detail I wish to provide. In those years, I came to know several Lesbians and some Gays, and that is when I realized that their life style was not a choice, but perhaps more of an affliction.

I became Muslim not very long after all that because I still wanted to worship God, but not with the "people of plastic Jesus". I learned a great deal in those 7 years. Still I still searched for something that was missing and found myself a member of the LDS church in a series of astonishingly wonderful events that started in early March of 2011.

So, in the past I have heard that the people of diversity have been excommunicated and generally treated awfully. Well, being a member now, suddenly some of the Lesbians and Gays I've had contact with have revealed that they had been LDS. I do not know what will happen now. Heavenly Father has taken me on a long and often painful journey, experiencing things that I never sought out. For me, I intend to be loving and gentle to all who I meet. Through the LDS, my experience has saved my life.

[OnAJourney]

Where do we draw the line between what is physical and what is not? I do not think any of us believes that a person born with Down's disease had it in the preexistance. But they have it now, with all of the loss of mental capacity. Although we can look for the third 21st chromosome and we know that their brain development was not right because of the etra chromosome, they are still mentally deficient (and I do not mean that in a mean way).

There are other things that can go wrong in the brain. We see many of these in Stroke victims. when one or more areas of the brain lose their blood syppy and die.

We know that things can go wrong with the brain during development as in trisomy 21 (Down's Syndrome).

And as some have already said the life of a homosexual or transsexual is not one that a person would willingly have, just because he/she felt like it on day. I am convinced that homosexuals and transsexuals did not choose the way they feel. Just as with the thousands of common people (I hate the term normal psople) never consciously thought about it. It just happened.

[annewandering]

Hala, all we are asked to do is love our brothers and sisters, all the children of God in other words. It is not up to us to condemn anyone and certainly not to treat them badly. We all commit sins and for us, our sins are our concern, not someone elses sins. If they live a 'gay lifestyle' with "out of marriage" sex then they are committing sin but that is between them and God not us and them.

[Hala401]

... Is the way that the LDS I have met take the admonisment of Jesus Christ so seriously. I've seen a lot of hate and hypocracy and was very disillusioned. Two years ago, if someone would have told me that I would soon be LDS, I would have laughed at them. And when it started happening resisting the Holy Spirit was my focus; the pain of all the betrayal and hate was too fresh; to much for me. All trust was absolutely gone.

I'm a bit ashamed of how I resisted at first; surprised and thankful that Heavenly Father did not give up on me. Still very alert to any sign of betrayal, sometimes I just feel crazy. Are these people nuts? Do they know how many people think that my sin was too great to forgive?

Do you lifer LSD folk even realize how special your life is? Sure there have been mistakes in the church, but it boggles my mind when I see how people own up to them and then set out to rectify hurts.

There is a lot that I will never reveal about my past life. I will say that I have never been arrested or accused of any crime what so ever. I have never been accused or committed any crime against any person, adult or child, male or female. Yet there are evangelicals who think that I lead the most sinful life that anyone could. When I interviewed to be baptized I was asked to make certain promises and in the name of Jesus Christ I promised to keep them.

Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and the saints of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints have gotten into my heart and I could not stop it.

I have watched this discussion with astonished surprise, because I know that in Evangelical Forums, the GBLT set would be roasted and abused in the most abominable way imaginable.

Tomorrow, or Friday, depending upon the weather, I will start my drive down to Provo from Portland to see the young women who convinced me to listen to them teach about the church. I'm feeling really tender about this journey; oh so vulnerable. There are people I know to see, a Museum with a Middle Eastern exhibit, and then I want to walk on the grounds of the Temple in SLC. I hope to do it alone, because I want to spend quiet time there praying to Heavenly Father, and just absorbing the history of this place; how the settlers came, fought to build the temple, then had to tear it apart and hide it, and finally to complete it against unfathomable difficulties.

I've really tried hard to express my gratitude, but it is clear that there is nothing I can say or do that will be enough.

Much peace

Hala

[Vort]

Do you lifer LSD folk even realize how special your life is?

No. I have an inkling, but only that. I expect if I had any real appreciation for how unbelievably blessed I have been, I would be far more patient with others, in real life and (especially) online. Instead of feeling anger and irritation toward those who debase their covenants and criticize the Church that offers them the gospel of salvation and its leaders who give up their lives in its service, I would pity and feel sorrow for them. But like everyone else, we lifers are still works in progress.

[giantCplus]

LDS Gender has an interesting post on transgender people in the bible. I found it motivating and insightful. It helped me to change how I see myself as a transgender member of the church.

Exaltation available to all « LDS Gender

[Guest Bartholomew]

In the California to their lot of good services and the law is very heard to their nobody can do any worn to that place, The law is do the public security any time.

contested wills

[pam]

Do you lifer LSD folk even realize how special your life is? Sure there have been mistakes in the church, but it boggles my mind when I see how people own up to them and then set out to rectify hurts.

Hala

Just happened to notice this (bolded). Sorry I gave that up years ago.

[OnAJourney]

I do not know if there are still any other transgender people following this thread, but I have seen some comments here that would scare many off. I hope that we can change the tone of this forum to one of understanding, and not ignorance.

giantCplus is correct. When I first joined this group I chastised the moderators for their bias. I received one response from them and noted that the moderators’ statements appeared to be less biased afterward. So I suppose my message was heard.

Now to answer giantCplus' question. Yes there are transgendered people who still read the thread. I am transgendered. I am also an active member of the Church, a college graduate, been married more than 30 years, have four grown children, three grandchildren, have taught college and am a professional Failure Analyst. (The last is like a physicist, mathematician, chemist, and materials scientist rolled into one.) I would rather be known for those accomplishments rather than for my transgendered status, or my eye color for that matter.

I have always been transgendered from my earliest memories even though I had no concept of it. I knew from an early age I should have been born a girl.

Transgendered people are all around, but they are hidden, as I was, because of people’s reaction similar to the comments that have appeared in some of the messages posted. After all, why would someone go to great lengths just to be shunned and lied about? Why not just go with the flow? (Why didn’t Joseph Smith go with the flow?) The short version of the answer is because they cannot, just as Joseph Smith could not deny what he had experienced.

I wrote a treatise a few minutes ago to post, then decided this was enough for now. My continued presence at lds.net will depend on the responses that are generated by this post. I am like the majority of the population, I do not stay where my presence is not welcomed (or at least tolerated if not welcomed).

I will be reading but future posting will depend on the members. I am a teacher and will willing share what I know and have learned, both within the Gospel and outside of it.

[FunkyTown]

Hey-hey OAJ.

Just a thought: You've made five posts since joining LDS.net, all of which were related to being transgendered. If you want to be known for other things and other accomplishments, it might be better to show the breadth of who you are rather than concentrate on that one aspect.

Just a thought.

Also, threatening to leave an internet forum is generally seen as childish. When this is pointed out, the response is inevitably "I wasn't threatening. Merely making a statement of fact." to which the answer is, "Obviously, everyone in the entire world knows that people generally don't stick around where they're not wanted. If it was just a statement of fact, why do we not hear other similarly obvious statements of fact such as 'Water is wet.' or 'Air is airy'. Both statements are just as irrelevant as 'If nobody wants me, I won't be here.'

If you bring up something like Gender Identity, people will give their opinions. You can agree or disagree with those opinions, or you can choose to leave the website because the majority disagree with your views on it. You can't change people's opinions by threatening to leave.

[giantCplus]

If you bring up something like Gender Identity, people will give their opinions. You can agree or disagree with those opinions, or you can choose to leave the website because the majority disagree with your views on it. You can't change people's opinions by threatening to leave.

So let me ask you this funky town.

What is the point of having a transgender forum when the people who the forum is intended to help are scared off by the opinion of those who speak out of ignorance?

[FunkyTown]

So let me ask you this funky town.

What is the point of having a transgender forum when the people who the forum is intended to help are scared off by the opinion of those who speak out of ignorance?

Haven't a clue. You might want to ask the creators of whatever forum you're talking about.

I have a secondary question for you: What if what said people are scared off by is the truth and not ignorance?

If you ask people's opinion on something or open a dialogue up to differing voices, silencing all voices that disagree with you is counterproductive. You, or they, might be incorrect. Assuming that everyone who disagrees with the politically correct view is naturally wrong is inherently foolish. Why talk about it at all if you assume the thinking has already been done?

[giantCplus]

The truth is that this is a church of love, acceptance, fellowship and above all we proclaim to follow Jesus Christ.

I hate to say it, but I don't know why a transgendered person would want to join the LDS church, or a true hermaphodite for that matter. After all, the issue with transgendered is that their brains were wired differently, and no amount of therapy helps. For those who get the surgery, it's the only option other than suicide that helps. What those people need is real compassion, not judgment.

Is this the kind of attitude someone who follow Jesus Christ has. No, this is the kind of attitude that keeps people away from the church. Saying they are not welcome, because they are transgender, in the nicest way possible. This is a statement made in ignorance. And this is the ignorance that I was referring to.

You can disagree all you like there is nothing stopping you if that is your prerogative. But don’t do it at the expense of someone who is asking an honest question and seeking an honest answer. If you want to disagree, I am sure there are plenty of other forums out there that can accommodate you.

You said…

... silencing all voices that disagree with you is counterproductive.

Do you not think that silencing voices such as OnAJourney that has many years of personal experience as being a transgender just as counterproductive? Would this person not be able to offer personal insight to help erode the shroud that environs the mysteries behind the transgender experience?

And your final question…

Why talk about it at all if you assume the thinking has already been done?

I haven’t a clue what you are trying to say here. What thinking have I assumed already done?

[bytor2112]

The truth is that this is a church of love, acceptance, fellowship and above all we proclaim to follow Jesus Christ.

This is a church restored in the last days to prepare for the return of the Savior and to call mankind to repentance.

[giantCplus]

This is a church restored in the last days to prepare for the return of the Savior and to call mankind to repentance.

If you tell that to a prospective member; is that going to entice them to come unto Christ, or is it going to scare them off because they need to repent?

I don’t know about you but I think the first is a little more welcoming and just as true.

[bytor2112]

If you tell that to a prospective member; is that going to entice them to come unto Christ, or is it going to scare them off because they need to repent?

I don’t know about you but I think the first is a little more welcoming and just as true.

Sorry you think so.....the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Gospel of repentance...not of acceptance, repentance means to change....to put off the natural man and put on Christ. All are invited to come unto Christ. First principle and ordinance of the Gospel, faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, gift of the Holy Spirit.

[annewandering]

If you tell that to a prospective member; is that going to entice them to come unto Christ, or is it going to scare them off because they need to repent?

I don’t know about you but I think the first is a little more welcoming and just as true.

We ALL have to repent. Its a basic part of the gospel. In fact repentance is such a wonderful thing it has to be made known to investigators right off the bat. They truly have a chance to wash their sins away. :)

Now what this has to do with transgendered I have no clue. Transgendered is not a sin. It is a state of being. Now the question is what do you do with it if you are transgendered? Is it an excuse to sin saying you have no choice? Or is it just one of many conditions mankind is given that have to be dealt with?

Being cleansed by the refiners fire is actually a compliment to the person being refined. It means that they have the strength to deal. :) Sure its hard. My issues are hard for me. They are supposed to be. Otherwise whats the point?

[giantCplus]

Thank you annewandering. I now see the error in some of the wording I have used. Some of my statement where poorly thought out, just as the one you pointed out. I got so caught up in the heat of the discussion that I fell into the very trap I was trying to avoid. Let me clarify what I was trying to say in my Post to FunckyTown.

I am trying to show that there are many post here, like the one I uses, that do not fully follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. These post are the ones OnAJourney are referring to.

Transgendered people are all around, but they are hidden, as I was, because of people’s reaction similar to the comments that have appeared in some of the messages posted.

I simply used the teaching of Christ that pertained to my point. Maybe using the church as a whole was the wrong choice of words. Maybe I should have worded it as, “The truth is that Christ taught of love, acceptance, fellowship and above all he asked us all to come follow Him (among other things).”

Also when I say acceptance I mean acceptance as in not passing judgment on your fellow men, not that we have to accept the man and his sin.

[FunkyTown]

You can disagree all you like there is nothing stopping you if that is your prerogative. But don’t do it at the expense of someone who is asking an honest question and seeking an honest answer. If you want to disagree, I am sure there are plenty of other forums out there that can accommodate you.

You realize, of course, that this is not a transgendered website? This is a website dedicated to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. This means that all discussions - Even transgendered ones - Will be done through that lens.

Do you not think that silencing voices such as OnAJourney that has many years of personal experience as being a transgender just as counterproductive? Would this person not be able to offer personal insight to help erode the shroud that environs the mysteries behind the transgender experience?

I never once suggested in silencing him. The only thing remotely close to suggesting he be quiet was when I said that it was absurd for him to expect others to think of him for one of his many accomplishments instead of his transgenderism when every post he's made thus far has been about his transgenderism. If someone came on here and talked about baseball in every single post, I would start to think of him in terms of his baseball fanaticism. Because it's clear that bleeds in to every aspect of him. I was simply pointing out the inherent absurdity in discussing only a very narrow focus and then hoping others don't define you by that narrow focus.

And your final question…

I haven’t a clue what you are trying to say here. What thinking have I assumed already done?

You assume that because somebody is transgender, they're necessarily going to be correct in whatever they say about being transgender. That's not the way it works. If a person came on and said they had a pornography addiction and that the only answers were either suicide or indulging their base desire, I would call them out on that false dichotomy as well. You will note that almost every discussion on here about transgenderism boils down to, "Transgenderism is good because x." "You can't give in to it because Y." "You just don't understand because you aren't transgendered."

That is an absurd argument. The simple fact is that if an act is wrong, it's wrong. Attempting to talk it right, or arguing that it's okay, and then claiming that anyone who doesn't agree with you can't possibly be correct as they don't suffer from transgenderism is absurd. It's a specific logical fallacy: Specifically, it is a 'Guilt by association' version of the Ad Hominem argument.

That's just a fancy-schmancy way of saying, 'You can't dismiss the opinions of someone simply because they don't belong to your specific subgroup.'.

If gender reassignment surgery is wrong, it's wrong. That should be addressed rather than claiming that the beliefs of those who claim it's wrong are incorrect. Simply prove to the people who disagree with you that their claims are incorrect.

Me, I'm going to stick with the churches view on the subject.

[giantCplus]

You realize, of course, that this is not a transgendered website? This is a website dedicated to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. This means that all discussions - Even transgendered ones - Will be done through that lens.

How have I not done that?

I never once suggested in silencing him.

... "Obviously, everyone in the entire world knows that people generally don't stick around where they're not wanted. If it was just a statement of fact, ...

If you bring up something like Gender Identity, people will give their opinions. You can agree or disagree with those opinions, or you can choose to leave the website because the majority disagree with your views on it.

To me is sound like you where telling him to leave. Is that not a form of silencing him?

You assume that because somebody is transgender, they're necessarily going to be correct in whatever they say about being transgender.

When did I say that? In the past I have simply pointed out what I was doing and suggested that for anyone else it is between them and the lord.

You will note that almost every discussion on here about transgenderism boils down to, "Transgenderism is good because x." "You can't give in to it because Y." "You just don't understand because you aren't transgendered."

Please enlighten me. What is X and Y suppose to mean? And then are you subjecting that you understand what its like to be transgender? And never once did I claim that it was right to do anything that was not within the standards of the church. Like I said before that it is between them and the lord, and that they need to discuss it with their local leaders.

If gender reassignment surgery is wrong, it's wrong. That should be addressed rather than claiming that the beliefs of those who claim it's wrong are incorrect. Simply prove to the people who disagree with you that their claims are incorrect.

When did I say that? And for the third time it is between the individual and the lord.

What I have been saying all a long here and what I think OnAJourney was trying to say is that a lot of the comments here are very narrow minded that do not follow the teaching of Jesus Christ. I am suggesting that we open up the dialog to a more compassionate one. There is a lot of grey area that surrounds why transgender people are they way they are. And very little has been revealed to us about it. Try to show them a little compassion. Do not tell them they are sinners because they what to transition. I would love to transition, but I am not going to. Does that make me wrong?

[FunkyTown]

How have I not done that?

Did I say you didn't?

To me is sound like you where telling him to leave. Is that not a form of silencing him?

I'm not saying he has to leave. He can also agree or disagree - I specifically mentioned those options, I believe. I suppose he could also ignore them.

When did I say that? In the past I have simply pointed out what I was doing and suggested that for anyone else it is between them and the lord.

Did I say you said it? And yep. It's between them and the Lord. However, some people might find difficulty finding answers in that way, so they come and ask other people's opinions on it. They then come to a website, presumably this one since we're talking about it now, and then others give their opinions. That's kind of how social networking sites like Forums operate. One person states something and another person makes another statement relating to the first persons statement.

Please enlighten me. What is X and Y suppose to mean? And then are you subjecting that you understand what its like to be transgender? And never once did I claim that it was right to do anything that was not within the standards of the church. Like I said before that it is between them and the lord, and that they need to discuss it with their local leaders.

X is a generic term utilized to suggest a generic and/or random statement. Y is the same, but expressed as a different letter to indicate they're different. That's pretty standard for their meaning.

And yep. It's between them and the Lord. However, some people might find difficulty finding answers in that way, so they come and ask other people's opinions on it. They then come to a website, presumably this one since we're talking about it now, and then others give their opinions. That's kind of how social networking sites like Forums operate. One person states something and another person makes another statement relating to the first persons statement.

When did I say that? And for the third time it is between the individual and the lord.

Did I say you said it?

And for the third time, yep. It's between them and the Lord. However, some people might find difficulty finding answers in that way, so they come and ask other people's opinions on it. They then come to a website, presumably this one since we're talking about it now, and then others give their opinions. That's kind of how social networking sites like Forums operate. One person states something and another person makes another statement relating to the first persons statement.

What I have been saying all a long here and what I think OnAJourney was trying to say is that a lot of the comments here are very narrow minded that do not follow the teaching of Jesus Christ. I am suggesting that we open up the dialog to a more compassionate one. There is a lot of grey area that surrounds why transgender people are they way they are. And very little has been revealed to us about it. Try to show them a little compassion. Do not tell them they are sinners because they what to transition. I would love to transition, but I am not going to. Does that make me wrong?

I want you to stop for a moment - From your comments, I'm getting the sense that you have kind of a thin skin about this sort of thing and a bit of a persecution complex. You seem to think I have made specific attacks on you. I want you to step back from that and contemplate just the words that I'm saying:

Gender Reassignment surgery is radical. It involves the mutilation of your genitalia. For the briefest moment, I want you to consider: What if it isn't the answer? What if it won't make you happy?

What would be the compassionate thing to do in that situation:

1) Warn people not to do it.

2) Tell people, 'It's okay. Don't worry about it. Whatever you think is right, you should do.'

Your posts suggest that others are narrow minded. But never once have you considered the idea that you might be wrong and that the surgery doesn't resolve anything.