Transgender

[MorningStar]

I have a cousin and a niece who both want to change genders. Neither of them every showed any signs of feeling like they were the opposite sex, but my niece has had problems with self-mutilation and depression for years. My cousin has had a major change in personality and I don't believe at all that this is a healthy decision. My niece has those ear guages, she cuts herself, has piercings in very painful places, and is planning on getting "scarifications" (like tattoos, only you scar designs on your skin), and more. I feel like if I go along with their wishes to be called the opposite gender, I'm encouraging them to do something very self-destructive. Most of the family is calling my male cousin by a woman's name now, but I can't bring myself to do it. It just feels wrong. They see it as accepting him, but I don't think he'll feel any happier after he mutilates his genitals.

[nocheese4u]

If you have not had a sex change and are straight do you need to see the ga (whatever that is) to get the proper authorization to post an intro thread. I am very curious because I am that predicament!

[giantCplus]

I have been reading some of the responses to FunkyTown's comment. Unless you have experienced what a transgender goes through, you have no hope in even coming close to understanding. Words can not describe the intense pull to be the opposite sex. So strong that you would do anything to be the gender that you feel you should have been. The draw is strong enough to take your own life, because the sight of your body fills you with disgust and an intense hatred and self loathing. You would rather die then go another day feeling this way.

It doesn't help much when people can be so narrow minded and not see the struggle someone with GID goes through on a daily basis. They would rather lump us in with another condition that they can use to explain away what we have; addictive behaviour (alcoholism), Body Integrity Identity Disorder, Pedophile, and so on. People may not understand, and I am not asking anyone to, just be sympathetic. This goes deeper then ones desire to chop off their genitalia. It is finding inner peace in a life long turmoil, and there is nothing we can do about it. I would recommend going back and reading some of the posts in this thread made from some of the transgender people here. these are amazing stories of faith. And you can gain a better understanding of transgender people.

Some other blogs that I found helpful in my own struggles;

My Life and Thoughts as a Married Transgender Christian

Sweet is the Peace

[Guest rsawills]

I am not able to understand why to change your gender??? Why to go against god who gave you birth as a particular gender. Click on the link below if you agree with me.

testament and will

[giantCplus]

If you are not transgender, you have no hope in understanding.

I have said in some of my previous post that I am not planning on changing my body, and attempting to live out my life as god intended for me.

[giantCplus]

If you are not transgender, you have no hope in understanding.

I have said in some of my previous post that I am not planning on changing my body, and attempting to live out my life as god intended for me.

[FunkyTown]

They would rather lump us in with another condition that they can use to explain away what we have; addictive behaviour (alcoholism), Body Integrity Identity Disorder, Pedophile, and so on. People may not understand, and I am not asking anyone to, just be sympathetic.

I am afraid I can not be sympathetic, but merely empathetic in this case. I'm sorry you're struggling with these things, and I know you feel that this is a completely separate case, but:

Don't you see? With Body Integrity Identity Disorder, the exact same feelings you're talking about exist in them. That feeling that you aren't right? They have that. This enormous need to alter their body? They have that. The feeling that their outwards appearance doesn't match what they feel? They have that.

Some people are even born with no arm, or no arms and legs.

Literally, the only differences between someone with a gender identity issue and someone with body integrity identity disorder are that fewer people suffer from BIID and that society frowns more upon BIID and a different body part gets mutilated. All the same feelings? They report it, too.

I empathize with your feelings - I believe this is how you feel, and I'm sorry for your struggle. But until we understand more about what causes gender identity issues, we should not as a society be encouraging its literally self-destructive tendencies. We know that the operation doesn't solve anything, that suicides are hugely increased in these cases. Until we figure out why, shouldn't we err on the side of caution?

[giantCplus]

Body Integrity Identity Disorder

Body integrity identity disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well for starts both of these sights state that… “The most widely accepted current theory on the origin of BIID is that it is a neurological failing of the brain's inner body mapping function (located in the right parietal lobe). According to this theory, the brain mapping does not incorporate the affected limb in its understanding of the body's physical form. (Mysteries of the Mind, Secret Life of the Brain E2, TVO documentary)” from Wikipedia.

From… Gender Identity Disorder

“What Causes Gender Identity Disorder?

The exact cause of gender identity disorder is not known, but several theories exist. These theories suggest that the disorder may be caused by genetic (chromosomal) abnormalities, hormone imbalances during fetal and childhood development, defects in normal human bonding and child rearing, or a combination of these factors.”

And from another article I particularly like on… GID.info | Gender Identity Disorder Information

“Research carried out in the mid-1990's may have discovered just such a previously "undetected deviation" in the brain structures of transgender individuals. In 1995 the Journal Nature [www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm] reported on the findings in Holland concerning an area of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BST) region and its put it forth as a possible explanation for Gender Identity Disphoria. The BST region had long been believed to influence sexual behavior, and is known to be larger in male vertebrates, which was why the researchers compared the brains of six transsexuals to the brains of non-transsexual men and women. Although the sampling was small, the BST regions in all six transsexuals were closer to the average size observed in female brains. [i should note that there have been similar comparisons of the size of the BST region between known homosexual and heterosexual men that found them to be comparable. …”

I would suggest reading the entire article.

As I read several articles about BIID I did not come across anything that mentioned suicide, placing BIID in another class of disorder.

In the article… Transgender Americans face high suicide risk - Health - Health care - More health news - msnbc.com

“A staggering 41 percent of transgender people in the United States have attempted to commit suicide, according to a new survey. About 19 percent of transgender people report being refused medical care because of their gender-nonconforming status, and a shocking 2 percent have been violently assaulted in a doctor's office. “

It does not say anything about…

41 percent of post ops attempted suicide...

You are comparing apples to oranges here. It is not a matter of wanting to cut of the genitalia, it is wanting to change it to match what is felt inside.

[bluedreams]

So this is probably one of the very few 11 page threads that I've read top to bottom. I find many of your experiences very interesting and enlightening and have enjoyed reading them.

On this topic, I had the oppurtunity to teach someone who is transsgendered. It was a godo experience in many ways and I decided that the reason, in my mind, for the policy was based on the strong eternal nature of gender. One's gender isn't changeable, it concretely there eternally. The problem is when people come into a cloudy and imperfect world. There is no sure way to say whether a person is supposed to be a man or a woman in this world. Because of that I can understand the policy as a means to wait until all things are clearly revealed. Whether it's the body that's the mistake or the mental understanding of oneself it'll become clear one day.

As for marriage. I have no idea. Personally, since it would be a civil marriage, I don't see why it would be a major problem. Legally it would be considered a heterosexual marriage. Eternally....that'll figure itself out, like most messy family situations.

Funky town: The high suicide-attempt rate could be connected to a number of things. And the report doesn't support the idea of high rate post-op. It stated that post-op transgendered usually had lower rates of substance abuse and depression. i don't know the full signifance, but GID from what little I do know, seems to have diverse reasonings and experiences to lead to these feelings. Because of that, I would be hesitant to making sweeping decisions as to what GID is or how it should be treated.

With luv,

BD

[FunkyTown]

You are comparing apples to oranges here. It is not a matter of wanting to cut of the genitalia, it is wanting to change it to match what is felt inside.

Which is exactly what someone with Body Integrity Identity Disorder claim. Many refer to the extra limbs as 'Superfluous'. They do not feel 'complete' with four limbs. They are confident that amputation will 'fix' them.

Body integrity identity disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The similarities are there. In this case, no doctor will touch the patient.

The two are exactly similar - The only difference being what part of the body they choose to mutilate.

The suicide bit is much more disturbing. There could be several reasons for this:

1) Transgendered individuals are treated much differently than an amputee. People on the fringe are usually much more likely to commit suicide.

2) People might expect that the reassignment surgery will fix everything. When that occurs, and nothing really changes except that they've lost a part of themselves, their hope is dashed.

There are too many variables. All the mental things you're describing are exactly as a BIID person would describe them. It's not pleasant to think about, but if we're going to be a good society, we have to consider the possibility.

[Magen_Avot]

If you have not had a sex change and are straight do you need to see the ga (whatever that is) to get the proper authorization to post an intro thread. I am very curious because I am that predicament!

Um,... I didn't post an intro thread...

[carlimac]

Which is exactly what someone with Body Integrity Identity Disorder claim. Many refer to the extra limbs as 'Superfluous'. They do not feel 'complete' with four limbs. They are confident that amputation will 'fix' them.

Body integrity identity disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The similarities are there. In this case, no doctor will touch the patient.

The two are exactly similar - The only difference being what part of the body they choose to mutilate.

The suicide bit is much more disturbing. There could be several reasons for this:

1) Transgendered individuals are treated much differently than an amputee. People on the fringe are usually much more likely to commit suicide.

2) People might expect that the reassignment surgery will fix everything. When that occurs, and nothing really changes except that they've lost a part of themselves, their hope is dashed.

There are too many variables. All the mental things you're describing are exactly as a BIID person would describe them. It's not pleasant to think about, but if we're going to be a good society, we have to consider the possibility.

Wow! I've never heard of this. Does it apply to chin hair and love handles?

[giantCplus]

I agree there are similarities but they are still two separate conditions that require two separate treatments.

“Some theorize that BIID is an extreme demonstration of Munchausen syndrome, a condition where the sufferer feigns or creates symptoms of illnesses in himself or herself in order to gain attention, sympathy, and comfort. The role of “patient” is a familiar and comforting one, and it fills a psychological need in people with Munchausen’s. BIID seems to have a similar pathology, where the subject seeks the special attention given to the disabled.” Amputation Fetishism • Damn Interesting

International Classification of Diseases from WHO | World Health Organization

Doing a search of the World health organization website did not find any results for Body integrity identity disorder. The clasfication for GID is as follows.

http://www.who.int/classifications/icd/en/bluebook.pdf

page 168

classification: F64 Gender identity disorder

2) People might expect that the reassignment surgery will fix everything. When that occurs, and nothing really changes except that they've lost a part of themselves, their hope is dashed.

In the article you quoted…

Transgender Americans face high suicide risk - Health - Health care - More health news - msnbc.com

“Yet transgender people overwhelmingly say it's worth it. After transitioning, transgender people show a significant decrease in substance abuse problems and depression, for example, and their mental health significantly improves, Knudson said.”

And in a article I found in the BBC website…

BBC NEWS | Health | Sex-change patients' op success

“Most patients undergoing male to female sex-change surgery say they are happy with the results - despite significant complication rates, a survey suggests.

University Hospitals of Leicester surveyed 220 people and found 88% were content, and only 7% were unhappy.”

Further down in the article they interviewed in-depth 70 of the 220 a few years later.

“However, some three-quarters of the 70 said they remained happy with the way their surgery had gone.”

Also in the same article…

“Male to female sex-change surgery is a major operation, which not only means the removal of the male sex organs, but uses their tissues to help build functioning female organs.”

Suggesting that the male sex organs are not removed but used to build functioning female ones. They are not removing the organ and leaving nothing. They are replacing it with the likeness of another organ.

There may be similarities, but they are still different disorders. The there origin is different; the area of the brain that the disorder affects is different. The emotional drive may be the same but the treatment is different. Under going sexual reassignment surgery is not going to put a burden on the healthcare system (you pay for it out of pocket). Chopping off ones limb and making them handicapped will place strain on the healthcare system, and possibly in the welfare system if they are no longer able to work or properly perform their job.

[FunkyTown]

International Classification of Diseases from WHO | World Health Organization

Doing a search of the World health organization website did not find any results for Body integrity identity disorder. The clasfication for GID is as follows.

http://www.who.int/classifications/icd/en/bluebook.pdf

page 168

classification: F64 Gender identity disorder

In the article you quoted…

Transgender Americans face high suicide risk - Health - Health care - More health news - msnbc.com

“Yet transgender people overwhelmingly say it's worth it. After transitioning, transgender people show a significant decrease in substance abuse problems and depression, for example, and their mental health significantly improves, Knudson said.”

University Hospitals of Leicester surveyed 220 people and found 88% were content, and only 7% were unhappy.”

Further down in the article they interviewed in-depth 70 of the 220 a few years later.

“However, some three-quarters of the 70 said they remained happy with the way their surgery had gone.”

Amputation fetishism is not Body Integrity Identity Disorder any more than cross-dressing fetishism is GID.

But, just so I can confirm - You agree that 41% of post-ops attempted suicide as per previous conversations in here. This last post, you said 88% were happy post-op.

That math doesn't make any sense at all. That would mean at minimum, that 29% of all post-ops attempted suicide while happy. Roughly one in three post-ops were cheerily downing bottles of pills with alcohol. That... Doesn't seem to make much sense.

[giantCplus]

OK, so when someone got dressed, in male or female clothing, did it cause physical harm to them self or someone else? How many, who removed their own limb or had someone else do it, got hurt or hurt someone else in directly?

Where does this “41% of post-op (after surgery) attempt suicide,” come in. All the articles I have quoted state that the high suicide rate is Pre-op (before surgery), and they have a greater quality of life after they have transitioned completely (surgery being the final stage). The 41% that you where quoting was pre-op, before they had their surgery not post-op.

[annewandering]

I thought this was interesting although it did come from wikipedia.

"People who undergo sex reassignment surgery can develop regret for the procedure later in life, largely due to lack of support from family or peers, with data from the 1990s suggesting a rate of 3.8%.[49] A review of Medline literature suggests the total rate of patients expressing feelings of doubt or regret is estimated to be as high as 8%.[50] In a 2001 study of 232 MTF patients who underwent GRS with Dr. Toby Meltzer, none of the patients reported complete regret and only 6% reported partial or occasional regrets.[51]" Transsexualism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Hala401]

i would imagine the entire situation would be handed over to a ga for consideration and the final decision. could come up with all kinds of fun what if's with this one. lol

in reality it's not that hard to have your situation handed off to a ga for final decision. i know a woman who was severely abused as a child. she did not grow up in the church. when she got older she went and found one of the men that did the most abuse with the intention of killing him. at the last min she chose not to though she literally scared the mess out of him and for a moment he thought he was dead. years later she joined the church. everything was fine and she was preparing to go to the temple when in the interview the event was brought up and she commented that her only regret was that she didn't kill him. she was red flagged and had to have an interview with a ga before she could get her recommend. i think most anyone would understand and excuse the sentiment she expressed but didn't change the process she had to go through. if that's all it takes it's hard to imagine something as complicated as the op presents would be an easy answer.

For that poor woman, it is all a question about the Atonement isn't it? Who gets the atonement? What sins can we humans for give? (this said facetiously). My own stepfather was horribly abusive beyond anything imaginable, sometimes beating me unconscious. I took it because in the 50's everything was the child's fault. I finally took a hatchet to him, but he took it away from me. I thank Heavenly Father that he prevented me from doing that, because it would never be right. He never beat me again.

So, in the case of this young woman, I can understand her homicidal urges and pray that someday Heavenly Father will heal her of the bitterness and anger. If we as mere humans place any restrictions on who gets the Atonement, and full privileges, does that make the church a lie?

[OnAJourney]

GS,

Could it happen that a female spirit be in a male body or vice versa? Perhaps. However, until new revelation comes out to reveal this, we cannot go around living on assumptions.

I personally believe it is more of a genetic/environmental issue than one of the spirit. For example, some people have a genetic predilection towards alcoholism or drug addiction. That does not mean they were addicts in the premortal existence.

The scriptures teach us that each of us has our agency to choose. We can give in to our physical urges, or we can overcome them. Everyone of us has some genetic predispositions. Everyone of us. I know that I could easily be an alcoholic/addict, simply by seeing the alcoholics on my Father's side, and knowing what my disposition tends to be. However, instead of giving in to such a tendency or curiosity, I simply focus on the spiritual strengths I have and refuse to have any alcohol, etc. Abstinence is my key phrase here, just as it is for many recovering addicts of drugs, sex, etc.

We can choose to overcome. Or we can choose to find justifications for our physical desires, genetic or environmental.

We could carry this attitude to an extreme. I have a grandson who was born with two club feet. Should his parents have left him that way and not undergone the two years it took to straighten his feet. Or should I have died of appendicitis at age twelve? Of course not! those are things that are commonplace to fix through medical help.

But, as sientists are beginning to believe homosexuality and transgendered states are induced in utero by hormones that don't quite reach a high enough concentration at a bunch of critical times during early development. The first of these critical times occurs before the woman even knows she is pregnant.

I believe that God wants us to do the bst we can given the resources at our disposal to improove the quality of our lives and thosee around us. The medical and psychological industry we have today is much better than it was 100 years ago.

[carlimac]

We could carry this attitude to an extreme. I have a grandson who was born with two club feet. Should his parents have left him that way and not undergone the two years it took to straighten his feet. Or should I have died of appendicitis at age twelve? Of course not! those are things that are commonplace to fix through medical help.

But, as sientists are beginning to believe homosexuality and transgendered states are induced in utero by hormones that don't quite reach a high enough concentration at a bunch of critical times during early development. The first of these critical times occurs before the woman even knows she is pregnant.

I believe that God wants us to do the bst we can given the resources at our disposal to improove the quality of our lives and thosee around us. The medical and psychological industry we have today is much better than it was 100 years ago.

There is nothing psychological or spiritual about club feet or appendicitis. Homosexuality and transgender issues are not only physical.

[Hala401]

We could carry this attitude to an extreme. I have a grandson who was born with two club feet. Should his parents have left him that way and not undergone the two years it took to straighten his feet. Or should I have died of appendicitis at age twelve? Of course not! those are things that are commonplace to fix through medical help.

But, as sientists are beginning to believe homosexuality and transgendered states are induced in utero by hormones that don't quite reach a high enough concentration at a bunch of critical times during early development. The first of these critical times occurs before the woman even knows she is pregnant.

I believe that God wants us to do the bst we can given the resources at our disposal to improove the quality of our lives and thosee around us. The medical and psychological industry we have today is much better than it was 100 years ago.

Mormons will recognise the hymn I am thinking about. In the lyrics, repeaded several times is the phrase, "We are not to Judge". Having been harshly judged, I avoid it at all costs.

Hala

[Soulsearcher]

There is nothing psychological or spiritual about club feet or appendicitis. Homosexuality and transgender issues are not only physical.

Actually it used to be thought that club feet had something to do with demons, or evil spirits. It used to have a very heavy spiritual connection and the people who held these beliefs could not be convinced it was just a natural physical thing, it had to have some deep spiritual meaning to be born different and the people born like that were cursed and persecuted much of the time. Funny what a little knowledge and a few hundred years of enlightenment can do to end religious stigmas.

[FunkyTown]

Actually it used to be thought that club feet had something to do with demons, or evil spirits. It used to have a very heavy spiritual connection and the people who held these beliefs could not be convinced it was just a natural physical thing, it had to have some deep spiritual meaning to be born different and the people born like that were cursed and persecuted much of the time. Funny what a little knowledge and a few hundred years of enlightenment can do to end religious stigmas.

True, but I'm uncertain how I feel about applying that to someone who's gay. I'm uneasy with the idea that it's something that can be 'cured'. If I was gay, I don't think I'd want to be 'cured' in the same sense that someone with a club foot can. And yet, how many would choose that lifestyle if given the choice ahead of time?

We live in an age of medication. How much of us is defined by electro-chemical reactions within our body and how much is defined by who we are?

Pah. Reminds me of C.S. Lewis' 'The Abolition of Man'. If being gay is an electro-chemical balance issue, then it can be 'cured'. What are the ethical ramifications of 'curing' someone's individuality?

[Soulsearcher]

True, but I'm uncertain how I feel about applying that to someone who's gay. I'm uneasy with the idea that it's something that can be 'cured'. If I was gay, I don't think I'd want to be 'cured' in the same sense that someone with a club foot can. And yet, how many would choose that lifestyle if given the choice ahead of time?

We live in an age of medication. How much of us is defined by electro-chemical reactions within our body and how much is defined by who we are?

Pah. Reminds me of C.S. Lewis' 'The Abolition of Man'. If being gay is an electro-chemical balance issue, then it can be 'cured'. What are the ethical ramifications of 'curing' someone's individuality?

I'm more commenting on the fact that things that we now know are physical were thought only to be spiritual or a sign of sin. We are seeing so much of the same " i know i'm right about the how and why" comments about gays, transgenders ect, that we used to see about club foot, left handedness, and having red hair. Why don't we hear about those "we know for sure" things anymore? Because we now actually know the truth.

As for the cure aspect, once upon a time you bet i would have paid anything, sold my soul to be cured, now not so much.

[Hala401]

True, but I'm uncertain how I feel about applying that to someone who's gay. I'm uneasy with the idea that it's something that can be 'cured'. If I was gay, I don't think I'd want to be 'cured' in the same sense that someone with a club foot can. And yet, how many would choose that lifestyle if given the choice ahead of time?

We live in an age of medication. How much of us is defined by electro-chemical reactions within our body and how much is defined by who we are?

Pah. Reminds me of C.S. Lewis' 'The Abolition of Man'. If being gay is an electro-chemical balance issue, then it can be 'cured'. What are the ethical ramifications of 'curing' someone's individuality?

Having done volunteer work in shelters and aid agencies, I know several people in the GBLT spectrum, and none of them ever told me that they just decided they'd be gay or what ever that day when they got up. I do not endorse the outrageous stories about those folks, and I suspect that they are exaggerated by those who feel so inferior that they must drag another human being down so they feel OK.

I don't judge because I am not God. Hopefully, someday we will know more about the situation and perhaps even find a cure, or an accommodation that is acceptable to Heavenly Father.

[giantCplus]

Actually it used to be thought that club feet had something to do with demons, or evil spirits. It used to have a very heavy spiritual connection and the people who held these beliefs could not be convinced it was just a natural physical thing, it had to have some deep spiritual meaning to be born different and the people born like that were cursed and persecuted much of the time. Funny what a little knowledge and a few hundred years of enlightenment can do to end religious stigmas.

so a little more knoledge and a few hundred more years of enlightenment will end the religous stigmas on transgender people?