LDS and Immigration

[pam]

Possibly. I literally HATE when people start saying that "we should shoot them all" and things like that or make ugly jokes about them. One thing is to be against illegal immigration, another thing is to be hateful AND racist (yes, I think a lot of people who think like that do it mainly out of racism and NOT immigration).

The thing is, I usually hear the comments when the subject of immigration comes up. I suppose that's why I see a correlation between the two.

[pam]

How do you feel about those illegal aliens who steal SS numbers, use fake documents or even take over another person's identity? (and put them in debt as well!) and I am speaking about good, law abiding citizens who are now faced with identity theft? Mercy cannot rob justice.

How do I feel about the multitudes of people who are not illegal aliens that do the exact same thing? Again we start making it sound as if only illegal aliens commit these kinds of crimes.

[hordak]

The idea that I was trying to get across was this. Unless we are Native American, every single one of our families started off as immigrants. Many came here to perhaps have a better life, more freedoms to enjoy and a better place to hopefully raise families. Not to mention freedom to worship as they choose.

Perhaps my beef isn't so much about immigration but compassion for those from other lands. Those who aren't from a culture that we here in the US are familiar with. Honestly I get tired of the comments that "It's all the darn illegal Mexicans fault." Doesn't matter what it is, it's their fault in some way. If they want to live here let them speak our language. They don't belong here. Deport the whole bunch.

Surprising living in Utah how much more I hear this than what I heard living in So. California right next to the border. Also surprising how much more I hear this from LDS members than those who are not members. This is the attitude I'm talking about. Again, if we are taught by our General Authorities and Christ himself to love everyone, why do we still have such an attitude about people?

I whole heartily agree with this. In fact recently the German Chancellery took some flack for saying such a thing but was backed up by some Turkish officials because they understand that a common language is the first step to understanding.

[Traveler]

Often times I wonder if those same "haters" have a problem with blond and blue eyes illegal aliens from Europe.

Actually the current immigration laws are very non-biased as for as national origin and race. However, illegal immigration is the most racially biased behavior allowed in this country in the last 100 years – especially among those that argue for little or no action against those that disregard the law.

This simple fact is turned upside down with the argument that attempts to enforce the law are racial and bigoted. This is because such a large percentage of those that disrespect our immigration laws or of a single race. Even if the reason of disrespect is not racial but likely because we have a border with another country whose people and leaders do not respect the border with us as any indication of our national sovereignty.

The whole thing is a problem of proportions. It is kind of like – if once a year a neighbor’s dog poops in your yard – that is not such a big deal. You can clean that up in efforts to maintain good neighbor relationships. But if the neighbor has a kennel of over a hundred dogs and as many as 60 of those dogs poop in your yard ever day then it is a big deal. It may not be the dog’s fault but in the end any action you take to protect your property will have an impact on many of the neighbor’s dogs’ health and wellbeing. And of course someone will think your motivation to be hatred towards dogs.

The Traveler

[Maya]

These illegals also effect my life yep even though I am in Norway (actually we ahve a few here too, but the cold winter is dimishing the count) Anyway how can it affect my life? Yes it affects this way:

A little lady (you would never quess how old, unless you had seen teh passport) is next in line.

" How long are ypu going to stay?" Very strictly

"About a week"

"Do you have a returning ticket?"

"Eh??"

"Do you have a returning ticket.. (she nodds wideeyed) can I see it please"

The littel lady sighs and tries to find a place for the jacket she is holding on her arm. Gerring acess to her purse she begins to digg in teh sidepocket feeling her way around and finally gets her fingers on something that she pulls out of the handbags sidepocket and hands it to the man.

"So you have no intentions to stay longer?"

"Eh? ... aaa no..." she looks suprised, gee he had the ticket and can see it why stil ask? Then a smile appears " No way" What she really would have liked to say was... Why? Why sould I want to stay, are you crazy, I got it much better at home ... but she feels it might be taken as insulting the officer and dont say that.

Misionaries who travel to MTC have to learn excactly how to answer to those questions or they find themselves in the next flight back where they came from! It has happende to quite a few. Actually it was my biggest anxiety of my sons mission, that he can answer correctly to those questions. From MTC he told it was colse they did not send him back...

My good friend who is American told me that they are equall thowards americans visiting their homeland and Chicago airport is the worst.

Not beeing used to beeing strictly inquired by an officer of somekind with a very authoritary voice scares many, the little me anyway. Everyone is an illigal, quilty, as long as he/she is proven not to be one.

Heh, once time the filght attendent did not send my green card back to USA as I have a Finnish passport and I did not know I should have sent it in myself... I did not even know it was not sent. So next time I was on the Chicago airport trying to get in the country, I got a 2nd degree inquiry of why ans where I been living in USA the last 2-3 years. I just said "Eh? I have nopt been in USA since the last time" And could not understand anything. This time the officer was a bit nicer than the other times, and he even smiled at me at the end, when I annonsed that I am just going to see the Osmonds, the worlds best grpoup ... but he told me I better see that the green card gets to the ... where ever it was, or they may arrest me the next time. So when I got home I wrote to the USA.. something... immigration or something and explained that I am home and that I never was in USA those years.

[Jamie123]

These illegals also effect my life yep even though I am in Norway (actually we ahve a few here too, but the cold winter is dimishing the count) Anyway how can it affect my life? Yes it affects this way:

A little lady (you would never quess how old, unless you had seen teh passport) is next in line.

" How long are ypu going to stay?" Very strictly

"About a week"

"Do you have a returning ticket?"

"Eh??"

"Do you have a returning ticket.. (she nodds wideeyed) can I see it please"

The littel lady sighs and tries to find a place for the jacket she is holding on her arm. Gerring acess to her purse she begins to digg in teh sidepocket feeling her way around and finally gets her fingers on something that she pulls out of the handbags sidepocket and hands it to the man.

"So you have no intentions to stay longer?"

"Eh? ... aaa no..." she looks suprised, gee he had the ticket and can see it why stil ask? Then a smile appears " No way" What she really would have liked to say was... Why? Why sould I want to stay, are you crazy, I got it much better at home ... but she feels it might be taken as insulting the officer and dont say that.

Misionaries who travel to MTC have to learn excactly how to answer to those questions or they find themselves in the next flight back where they came from! It has happende to quite a few. Actually it was my biggest anxiety of my sons mission, that he can answer correctly to those questions. From MTC he told it was colse they did not send him back...

My good friend who is American told me that they are equall thowards americans visiting their homeland and Chicago airport is the worst.

Not beeing used to beeing strictly inquired by an officer of somekind with a very authoritary voice scares many, the little me anyway. Everyone is an illigal, quilty, as long as he/she is proven not to be one.

Heh, once time the filght attendent did not send my green card back to USA as I have a Finnish passport and I did not know I should have sent it in myself... I did not even know it was not sent. So next time I was on the Chicago airport trying to get in the country, I got a 2nd degree inquiry of why ans where I been living in USA the last 2-3 years. I just said "Eh? I have nopt been in USA since the last time" And could not understand anything. This time the officer was a bit nicer than the other times, and he even smiled at me at the end, when I annonsed that I am just going to see the Osmonds, the worlds best grpoup ... but he told me I better see that the green card gets to the ... where ever it was, or they may arrest me the next time. So when I got home I wrote to the USA.. something... immigration or something and explained that I am home and that I never was in USA those years.

Yup - if you've no record of your exit then you were in the country the whole time. Any evidence to the contrary is irrelevant. The "Maya" who was in Norway all that time must have been your identical twin sister because people in Immigration "don't make mistakes". The absence of that small green piece of paper proves beyond all doubt that you were living secretly in the US, stealing jobs from poor unemployed all-Americans or living off ill-deserved Social Security payouts.

Having said that immigration in the UK is getting pretty bizarre too. There have even been some complaints in the papers that British science is suffering, because international students - educated and trained at British universities - are being refused visas to stay and continue their research after they graduate. I've never heard of any soccer player having the same problem.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Jamie123

[Traveler]

Pam, I agree completely with what you are saying however I think that's entirely another topic. Some of us who do not support illegal immigration do it based on laws and SAFETY, not race, ethnicity or hate.

How do you feel about those illegal aliens who steal SS numbers, use fake documents or even take over another person's identity? (and put them in debt as well!) and I am speaking about good, law abiding citizens who are now faced with identity theft? Mercy cannot rob justice.

There is a distinction here. Most illegal immigrants do not take identities with malicious intent toward citizens. It is, for them, a necessary evil to survive. The problem is that criminal elements have come to realize how easy identity theft is and low lacerative it can be. Often the distinction is difficult to determine between the two because in many cases criminals have learned to take little from many rather than lots from few – thus a victim may not even know they are being taken advantage of and so some criminal has little more impact than well meaning immigrants. It is very difficult to enforce laws under such landscape without hurting immigrants that did not intend to be criminals. And so any action under the law looks unjust.

The Traveler

[Dravin]

Unless we are Native American

Even they. Of course mammoths aren't exactly around to complain.

[Just_A_Guy]

The idea that I was trying to get across was this. Unless we are Native American, every single one of our families started off as immigrants. Many came here to perhaps have a better life, more freedoms to enjoy and a better place to hopefully raise families. Not to mention freedom to worship as they choose.

Then again--if the Native Americans had been able to develop and enforce a coherent immigration policy they'd still have the lands, language, culture, and political independence that they enjoyed three hundred years ago.

Open borders works out pretty nice for the newcomers. For the old settlers--not so much. It's not that the Europeans--or modern-day immigrants to the US--are deliberately out to subjugate the people who are already here. But cultural differences are inevitably going to arise--each side is going to want to do things their way, and the side that has the stronger resources and political will is going to prevail.

An exhibit of Mexican American art at the Provo Library a couple weeks ago included a painting of an eagle carrying a snake, setting down on the Statue of Liberty. If I hadn't been familiar with the underlying legend being invoked--and the way MECHA and other immigrant groups invoke and promote that legend--I'd have thought it was cute. As it was, I was disgusted.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[rubondfan2]

I think the Indians need to start getting tough with all those white people who barged their way in in 1620.

The "Thanks" button does not nearly express my genuine thanks for your extremely useful post. People may call what you said cliche... but it really strikes right at the core of the entire "immigration" issue. We Americans (embarassed to call myself that sometimes, and yes, I've no doubt that someone will pounce on my making that statement); speaking specifically of our ridiculous legislative policies, literally give new meaning to the word "hypocrisy".

[FunkyTown]

Then again--if the Native Americans had been able to develop and enforce a coherent immigration policy they'd still have the lands, language, culture, and political independence that they enjoyed three hundred years ago.

Open borders works out pretty nice for the newcomers. For the old settlers--not so much.

The EU has generally open borders, and that works out well when open borders are with countries of reasonably equal economic status. It's when countries don't have that reasonably equal status that problems take place.

However: Free and open borders between nations with a shared culture and history is nothing but good for the citizens. It improves the job market by expanding the places where people can find work.

Open borders with those who are economically far behind, however, results in severe growth pangs. Cutting them out is not the nicest thing, but it does protect the economic status of said country.

[rubondfan2]

The EU has generally open borders, and that works out well when open borders are with countries of reasonably equal economic status. It's when countries don't have that reasonably equal status that problems take place.

However: Free and open borders between nations with a shared culture and history is nothing but good for the citizens. It improves the job market by expanding the places where people can find work.

Open borders with those who are economically far behind, however, results in severe growth pangs. Cutting them out is not the nicest thing, but it does protect the economic status of said country.

Well stated. Earlier someone made the comparison of European "illegals" versus Latino "illegals". Your comment above speaks to why we have less of a problem with European (or any other 1st world country for that matter) illegal immigrants. When a European enters our country legally for the first time and stays the limited number of days, they don't have much of a problem hopping on their $1000 flight back home to their country where their currency is likely stronger than ours, their culture stable and their general living conditions equal to or greater than those they found here in the States.

A Latino, however, comes across the border legally (contrary to popular belief, a great many of the illegally present folks did not "swim the river" or "hop a fence" to get here... they just walked right in while smiling at the immigration official) but then when faced with the prospect of returning to their depressed, corrupt economy and government, to earn a hundredth of what they can earn here, to a family who desperately needs their financial support... well... who can blame many of them for deciding that they would rather take a chance so as to help support thier family?

It may surprise many that in Texas for example, economic studies have been performed which show quite interestingly that illegal immigrants actually cover the cost of the services they receive through their tax dollars. Yep, many illegal immigrants actually do pay taxes... and guess what... no refund for them, no voting rights, and limited and difficult access to the very services their tax dollars go to support. Is it any wonder that our government is stuck between a rock and a hard place on this issue? "Send 'em all back where they came from", the people cry. But the government then responds, "but what about all that free money we make off of them?"... of course that doesn't make it onto the broadcast vehicles owned by Rupert Murdock now, does it?

More to Pam's point earlier, I will say that in my personal experience, my life has been greatly blessed and enriched through my relationships with... *gasp*... illegal aliens. I have lived in a border state for more than half of my life and I have yet to be personally affected in a negative way by an illegal alien. No one's stolen my identity, "raped my women", broken into my house, picked on my kids, shot at my car, tried to sell me drugs or anything else of the sort. Sadly, I cannot say the same for my "citizen" neighbors. In fact, my experience has been that these are some of the most humble, kind, compassionate and giving people I have had the pleasure of being associated with.

I'll be in greater support of the laws surrounding immigration as soon as the larger political agendas behind those laws are removed from the equation. Since that probably isn't going to happen, I guess I'm in the camp of not really paying much attention to the laws as presently written or enforced.

[Just_A_Guy]

It may surprise many that in Texas for example, economic studies have been performed which show quite interestingly that illegal immigrants actually cover the cost of the services they receive through their tax dollars.

I'd love to see the link on this. Thanks.

No one's [1] stolen my identity, [2] "raped my women", [3] broken into my house, [4] picked on my kids, [5] shot at my car, [6] tried to sell me drugs or anything else of the sort.

Maybe this shows how our experiences influence our opinions. I grew up in central California: 1) happened to my dad, 4) and 6) happened to me, and I've had property stolen by illegals as well.

[rubondfan2]

I'd love to see the link on this. Thanks.

Maybe this shows how our experiences influence our opinions. I grew up in central California: 1) happened to my dad, 4) and 6) happened to me, and I've had property stolen by illegals as well.

I'll find the link for you... it's really not some underground, secretive information... but I figured someone would want "proof"... ok... I'll play.

The greater issue and argument has to do with 5 key points, (a couple of which are right up your alley as a practitioner of the law, JAG). Also, what I am going to present next are not directly pointed at you, JAG, but to the forum members in general and us "Gentiles" as a whole. I don't want this to turn into a "JAG vs. Bondfan" debate.

1) Read up on the current immigration rules surrounding application for citizenship in this country. In order to even apply for legal status if you're already here, one must show that they have been paying taxes for 3 years. Many of the illegal immigrants who are here want to become legal and are trying to follow the rules to do so the very best they can.

2) The average length of time it takes for a (Latino) to obtain a visa following their application is 10 years. Simple math here tells us that an illegal immigrant, seeking the legal right to remain in this country has paid taxes into the system for the better part of 13 years. Again, I'll dig up the source for you, but simple logic applied to the current immigration/naturalization rules tells you that these folks have a an extreme vested interest to pay taxes.

"But yeah, they're just getting paid under the table and only paying taxes on a much smaller scale than you or I", one might argue. Not so... again, think about this from a logical point of view. At some point, these folks are going to have to sit across the desk from an immigration authority and explain all their paperwork. The immigration authority looks at their paperwork and says, "Well, it says here you have 5 children and live in a home that costs you $1000 per month, yet you claim that your taxable income is only $500 per month??" Nope, the illegal folks have to pay more than their fair share of taxes because, again, they want to ensure they have a rock solid case for legal status when that day in front of the immigration officer comes. And remember, many of these "illegals" have children born here who are are now citizens. I'm thinking they aren't excited about hopping on the next bus to Latin America.

3) As to the "crime factor"... it's not just about our personal experiences influencing our opinion on this issue. This is a socioeconomic situation that knows no borders. In your situation, for example in Southern California; you're around my age, so when you were growing up in Southern Cal there was a massive class separation. If you have folks (illegal or not) living in a neighborhood earning $5 per hour (or less) and you also have folks living in that same neighborhood making $40 to $50 per hour, then these socioeconomic factors kick in and what is bound to happen? Crime will go up. This will happen anywhere where there is extreme class separation... Southern Cal, Philly, Dallas, Guatemala, Guyana, Ethiopia... it doesn't matter. And it has NOTHING to do with your citizenship status. Are we really supposed to believe that people commit crime because they are illegal aliens? That is akin to saying that because I am a Latter-Day Saint, I only drink bottled water; the incorrect assumption being that it is because I am trying to live the Word of Wisdom to the best of my ability, when the reality is just that there is mercury in my public water supply.

The wider the gap between the have's and the have not's, the higher the crime. We see this all over the world and it has nothing to do with a persons immigration status.

4) Ok, do I really need to start quoting scripture on this? We know this stuff folks. The House of Israel has great promises given to them by the Lord and they are growing up and into those promises at this very time. The House of Israel is going to save our pathetic Gentile butts one day. Why? Because we Gentiles are going to become ripe in iniquity through our pride. I see a great deal of pride in the hearts of Gentiles who stand up on their soapboxes and spout off everything that Chris Matthews or Brian Williams said about immigration on the evening news. We need to turn off the flippin' television and stop listening to the sound bytes pumped into our heads by a government and a media enterprise determined to incite hate and prejudice and division. Instead, turn to the Lord, read His scriptures and listen to the counsel of our prophets concerning compassion, tolerance, and the warnings dealing with our own issues (speaking of us "Gentiles")... don't we have enough to work out with our own salvation than worrying about who is here legally and who is not?

5) One last bit of logic to consider. How many stakes are there in this country? Close to 3000? A great many of them have at least one Spanish speaking ward or branch. A great many Latino's in this country are Latter-Day Saints. Current church policy allows an "illegal alien" to hold a temple recommend... and many that I have known do. (And I have lived in at least 7 different areas of the country in the past 5 years, so my experience is not just limited to one stake in one area of the country). The church doesn't appear to be taking the same "zero tolerance" policy that many of us common members seem to be taking against our... yes, I'm going to say it... our brothers and sisters.

Again, back to Pam's point, we could, many of us, use a dose of humility, tolerance and compassion on this whole "issue" of immigration. Stop listening to the evening news and start reading the scriptures to study the promises made to the House of Israel and the warnings given to the Gentiles. If those alone aren't enough to get you thinking with a much wider world view on this subject, then perhaps some serious prayer is in order. Want a little more to study? Read up on socioeconomic thought throughout the world to learn more about the reasons behind crime, immigration, class warfare and general human behavior in depressed economic circumstances. Our news media and our own government want us to think myopically on this... they want us to make this about "illegal immigration". Immigration isn't the problem... it is the social and economic policies throughout the world which have as their singular design the separation of the rich from the poor. In the end, as Kevin Trudeau likes to say often... it really is "all about the money". We shouldn't be surprised by this. Didn't Satan say something to the effect of, "...you can buy anything in this world... with money"? I don't think he was just talking about TV's and PSP's, but about the hearts and minds of the children of God.

Edited November 5, 2010 by rubondfan2

[Just_A_Guy]

No problem, Bondfan. I'm not trying to be a jerk; I wasn't aware of any specific literature out there regarding the saying that the fiscal benefits of undocumented workers outweighed their costs; and if you do provide a link straight to it I will be genuinely happy to see it.

I'll make some observations on your points a bit later.

[Traveler]

I think the Indians need to start getting tough with all those white people who barged their way in in 1620.

What some of the posters and you are missing with this thought is that in 1620 there were about 40 million Native Americans (Indians) in what are now the 48 states of the USA. There are now about 4 million Native Americans left.

Most of those that came to live in the USA were poor people seeking a better life but the results over the years are not far from genocide. There are few wars in history that even attempted this kind of whole sale carnage on such a large scale. Mostly we now praise those well meaning immigrants coming to America of which few intended to take so much from so many.

The question is – do we not want history to repeat itself? Do we intend history to repeat itself?

The Traveler

[pam]

I'd love to see the link on this. Thanks.

Maybe this shows how our experiences influence our opinions. I grew up in central California: 1) happened to my dad, 4) and 6) happened to me, and I've had property stolen by illegals as well.

I think you just hit a major point there. My feelings stem from growing up within 5 miles of Tijuana, Mexico. I did so much humanitarian service to those in Tijuana. I saw the poverty. I saw the desperation in feeding their children. One family we were involved with lived in a cardboard shanty. Fire swept through there killing their 9 month old. They didn't even have the $5 to get the body from the morgue. My dad paid for it and the funeral and officiated for it.

So I can see why and understand them wanting to come to the US because they see it as a place where they would have more of an opportunity. I have such a love for these people words can't even describe.

So as I mentioned in my OP, I'm very emotionally tied and sensitive to the subject.

[prisonchaplain]

This debate seems to always end up focused on open borders vs. walls and guns. Again I say, we simply need to efficiently process the paperwork. Nobody that we want to come here legally should have to wait 2 years, much less the current 14. If we can get a handle on the procedures, then we could implement a coherent policy, whether it be open borderish or cherry picking the best brains and finances from other nations. As it is, we bluster about legal status, terrorism, and the social welfare burdens we bare. Is it their fault we are basically incompetent to control our own borders???

[hordak]

Then again--if the Native Americans had been able to develop and enforce a coherent immigration policy they'd still have the lands, language, culture, and political independence that they enjoyed three hundred years ago.

Open borders works out pretty nice for the newcomers. For the old settlers--not so much. It's not that the Europeans--or modern-day immigrants to the US--are deliberately out to subjugate the people who are already here. But cultural differences are inevitably going to arise--each side is going to want to do things their way, and the side that has the stronger resources and political will is going to prevail.

.

You know i have heard this debate many times but i have never caught the irony of trying defend illegal immigration to the current controlling population by explanation how bad our own illegal immigration destroyed the past controlling population.

[Just_A_Guy]

Just one or two more thoughts on the fly, in response to rubondfan2:

a) FWIW, "citizenship" and "legal status" are two different things. From what I understand (and, of course, this isn't a field I practice in; so I could be woefully wrong,) if you're just going for legal status--the only way to get it if you're here illegally, is if you a) apply for political asylum (which you must do within one year of arrival) or b) don't let the feds know that you're actually in the country.

And if you're in the US without legal status, I don't think citizenship is an option. That's why we keep hearing about a "path to citizenship" in immigration reform discussions--because, at present, there isn't one.

Employers have an incentive to make sure taxes are collected from employees they know to be in the country illegally, because there's always the fear of an audit. But those employees themselves--not so much, at least under the status quo.

b) Sure; the direct cause of the crime isn't the illegal immigration, it's the poverty. But it's hard to fight "poverty" within the borders of your country, when thousands of new poverty-stricken individuals are arriving every day.

If you want to say we've got to address poverty in order to properly address crime, I'll agree with you. But I'll add that in order to properly address poverty domestically, we've got to do something in the way of immigration reform and enforcement.

c) My understanding is that it is the Gospel that saves those gentiles who will be saved. The remnant of Joseph does not save the disobedient gentiles; it wages war against them.

d) In point of fact, the Church's policy with regard to illegals and temple recommends is more analagous to "don't ask, don't tell"--just as it is with tax dodgers, jaywalkers, speeders, and a host of others. All of these are deemed to be covered by the general question of "are you honest in all of your dealings?", and if you answer "yes" you're in.

e) It's easy to categorize money as "filthy lucre" and of no worth; and that's true to the extent that we equate money with material prosperity.

But, in our economy, money is also an equivalent form of labor and time. As such--unfortunately--to some degree, the way government uses money really equates to the way government uses people. If it does so in an abusive manner, all our smug claims about living in a land of "liberty" start to sound pretty hollow.

So there's a balancing act there.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[Mahone]

I agree with Dravin in the confusion of compassion and understanding the rule of law. Would these people do the same thing with Canada or England or Guatemala?

I think you have a misunderstanding of what immigration is like in other parts of the world too. We have just as much of a problem with immigration in England as you do in the USA, if not more of a problem.

As obvious as it seems, I think some people living in the USA forget that not the entire world is living in poverty, and not the entire world wants to get into the USA for any reason. As has been pointed out on this thread, many countries have a similar (and sometimes a better) economy to the USA. There does seem to be a general air of "the USA is supreme, and everyone else is a suspect for wanting to get into our country" on this forum. I'm sure it's not intentional, but that's the way it appears to an outsider, in some posts more than others (not just on this thread, but in many others too). In my case, and in the cases of many others living in other countries across the globe, the USA can offer me nothing that my own country can't.

[Just_A_Guy]

In my case, and in the cases of many others living in other countries across the globe, the USA can offer me nothing that my own country can't.

Get the hence, Satan!

C'mon, Mahone, admit it. Everyone's got a little bit of Yank in 'em.

[pam]

In my case, and in the cases of many others living in other countries across the globe, the USA can offer me nothing that my own country can't.

I disagree. There is American Football.

[mapman]

Weren't the first Mormon pioneers illegal immigrants in Mexico? I'm not sure if that's true, but it is what I have heard.

[marshac]

thus a victim may not even know they are being taken advantage of and so some criminal has little more impact than well meaning immigrants. It is very difficult to enforce laws under such landscape without hurting immigrants that did not intend to be criminals. And so any action under the law looks unjust.

The problem is that everyone makes mistakes, and when you make a mistake using someone else's identity, they ultimately pay for it. A (hispanic) friend of mine was recently pulled over- the cop ran his license, came back to his car and asked if he had ever been to Arizona- apparently there was a warrant for his arrest (the cop let him go). Thinking this was just a case of mistaken identity, he carried on with his life- a year later he applied for a job with a police agency where they do a very thorough background check... that's when the information dam broke and everything came piling through. The first bit was a call from HR asking if he had ever worked for ABC or XYZ... the rest came later.

It doesn't matter the reason someone uses someone else's ID, it's the end result that matters. At least if someone uses my ID to open up credit cards, I can put a fraud alert on my SSN and begin to clean up the mess.... it's harder when "you" are arrested and "you" are charged with a real crime....