Issues with Brigham Young

[Suzie]

--- From my MEMORY (it isn't perfect :/)

It was ***Joseph Smith*** that had given a black brother the priesthood, and then received a revelation from God that was not to be done AT THIS TIME, but in the future they would have all those blessings. So Joseph Smith had to go and ask the brother not to use his priesthood.

That's not true. Joseph Smith never had an issue with Elijah and his priesthood.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Suzie

[Suzie]

MOE, I am disturbed by the "ala carte" manner that you put Faith in the prophets. Priesthood authority is a keystone in the LDS faith. This is not something you can "leave for us to try out". Especially since there has been several prophets sustaining the policy for over a century.

Faith in the prophets? I like to think of Faith in terms of Heavenly Father and hope that His Spirit guides the decisions and policies of our leaders. However, I don't believe it makes them immune from committing mistakes or using their own rationalization, bigotry or even prejudice in a particular issue.

[Suzie]

Blacks and people of color from other lineages were not banned from the priesthood. This includes Australian aborigines and some people from Southern India, who can be "blacker" in skin color than Africans. They were allowed to receive the priesthood and participate in all ordinances.

Actually, in 1955 David O. McKay defined Melanesians, Negritos, Fijians and other groups being from a different linage and not under the priesthood ban, it is then (3 years later, 1958) that Melanesians were given the Priesthood and blacks in the Philippines earlier (along with others groups).

Edited January 14, 2011 by Suzie
typo

[bert10]

Brigham Young I feel was a somber no non-sense type of Prophet. He was from another Era where the conditions are a little different. You have to remember that the wicked could only overcome the Church and inflict all harm they did. Because only few were faithful.

The LDS had a lot of problem when they came to UTAH And they needed to have some of the power of GOD to help them overcome and tame the land and set up the government.

We cannot know all things that occurred in that Era and we did not live in that time period.

Now, I imagine as people grow up Spiritually they will realize and know that if anything is happening with the Church it is because God has permitted it. And Brigham Young was exactly what was needed at the time.

Also there is a lot you do not know...The seed of Cain will come to an end and so will the curse. in the millennium everything that is needful to be fixed shall be fixed. Everyone that shall resurrect shall not resurrect in any other race than that of our Father. All men and woman shall be in the image of our heavenly Father and Mother.

So you see it is not needful that you judge anything at this time until the Lord gives it to you as true of false. This life is not all there is to it. It is best when you read church material to accept all things as information neither good nor evil. In this way you are removing filters that would allow you to prejudge the information. It is natural to have filters on when we see, hear or sense something. But we can prevent them from interfering if we just see all things as info and wait upon the Lord for confirmation.

bert10

I just want to say that I am an LDS Member so this isn't an anti-Mormon comment trying to drive people away from the religion.

The only problem I have is that something is out of place with the teachings of Brigham Young. Shortly after he took leadership he revoked all the priesthood blessings of the Black members in the church and he also revoked the temple rights for all the members. He also had taught against mixed marriages. What bothers me is that I have been a member of the LDS Church for 13 years and I still believe that Brigham Young failed as a prophet and there were also rumors that he was involved in a massacre.

I understand that a lot of what him and other prophets said could be considered questionable, but the fact is that he approved of the writings of the Journal of Disclosures and helped along with the sale of them once they were written.

What I think is that Brigham Young is at fault for many of the Anti-Mormons that are out there because he put the church through a period of corruptness which hadn't been brought back into balance until years later when polygamy was ended and then until we had not used race as a reason to deny someone the same blessings.

Edited January 14, 2011 by bert10

[bert10]

Guidance versus intellectual reasoning. One is worldly and one is Spiritual...and normally the worldly reasoning will be opposite of what heaven says. Because all intellectual reasoning comes from the Ego and the Ego is an enemy of GOD. When the proper order is set in man...it is the Spiritual that rules over the Ego and then our actions are pure because our motives are pure since they come from the Spirit. And so it is written in Galatians...if one is led by the Spirit he is not under the law. All others who are led by their Ego...are under the law...for one the purpose of the law is to make men that are rule by their ego guilty. Another is to be a shoolmaster unto Christ. They that come unto Christ are made free.

bert10

There's a whole bunch of us, Brigham Young and Thomas S. Monson included, that would love to have that question definitively answered!

@Anatess: " But a policy about the administration of Priesthood power or about Marriage? You really think that is something the Lord will leave to "personal bigotry" without divine intervention?"

Yep, it looks that way to me.

HiJolly

[mrmarklin]

Interesting. Where did you serve? (if you don't mind the question).

South America.

[mrmarklin]

There seems to be some sense here that what Brigham Young did in denying blacks the priesthood was somehow some sort of personal prejudice. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is a scrupture that clearly states that the descendants of Ham cannot hold the priesthood. Abr 1:23-26. It is commonly understood that Ham was married to a black woman, and his descendants could not therefore hold the priesthood.

So there was no prejudice with Brigham Young or any of the early church leaders in denying blacks the priesthood. Once the scriptural basis was understood, the ban began IMNSHO.

Also I think the idea that the ban was somehow only a "policy" and not doctrine is an equivocation as well. The prophet does not need to receive a revelation to change policy.

Edited January 14, 2011 by mrmarklin

[Elphaba]

There seems to be some sense here that what Brigham Young did in denying blacks the priesthood was somehow some sort of personal prejudice. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is a scrupture that clearly states that the descendants of Ham cannot hold the priesthood. Abr 1:23-26. It is commonly understood that Ham was married to a black woman, and his descendants could not therefore hold the priesthood.

So there was no prejudice with Brigham Young or any of the early church leaders in denying blacks the priesthood. Once the scriptural basis was understood, the ban began IMNSHO.

I actually find your posts about the priesthood ban refreshing.

I have read on apologetics boards that things like this were never really taught, when, in fact, I KNOW it was taught because it was taught to me in the '60s and '70s. Yet, there are always some, usually quite a bit younger than I, who refuse to believe it.

As far as I know, however, it really is no longer taught, and the Church officially acknowledges it does not know the reason for the ban. I find that even more refreshing.

Elphaba

[RipplecutBuddha]

Continuing revelation

It's an interesting concept, and not one looked at specifically at this point in the thread. It's been a part of the discussion, but let me focus on it directly.

The OT is the word of God. The NT is also the word of God and, where applicable, overrules the standards and conditions found in the OT. Same with the Book of Mormon, D&C, and PoGP. Each adds further clarification upon God's word.

Starting with Joseph Smith, revelation from God resumed, and Joseph's declarations as a prophet of God trumped the Bibe and Book of Mormon. Why? Because God spoke with him directly.

Each living prophet picks up where his predecessor ends.

At the time of the ban, it was the will of God that it be in place. This much the Spirit has confirmed to me quite a while ago. God has his reasons, and he does not answer to us for his decisions. In time we will know why, and God is eager for that time to arrive, but it's our job to get there, not His; he's already there waiting.

In 1978, the time had come for a living prophet to overrule one of his predecessors and lift the ban. Again, God is in charge and that is as it should be. Even now, with the more stringent rules concerning qualifying to serve a mission, President Monson has overruled his predecessors and said the standards must be higher. Again, the reasons are known to God and are for us to discover through faith, prayer, and honest study of the truth.

Was it wrong? The ban? Back in that era, likely not because it was a cultural mindset common throughout the country. From our perspective it is offensive, and for good reason; we know better now.

Just remember this, go back far enough and instead of a sacrament meeting, in order to renew a covenant with God, you had to build an alter yourself, then kill an animal....my how times change, eh?

The priesthood could only be held by Levites at one point, and before that, holding the priesthood was an even more rare honor and duty. It's a wonder to me to this day how many priesthood holders are alive on the earth at the same time.

[Guest]

At the time of the ban, it was the will of God that it be in place.

That's the problem with this thread. It seems like only you and I believe so. They seem to think that BY and all the prophets after him until 1978 acted on their own personal bigotry instead of the will of God.

Really disappointing.

[Suzie]

That's the problem with this thread. It seems like only you and I believe so. They seem to think that BY and all the prophets after him until 1978 acted on their own personal bigotry instead of the will of God.

Really disappointing.

Why is it a problem that people may be open to other possibilities that you personally do not wish to consider or agree. I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with thinking differently on this topic or any other for that matter. I don't find your position disappointing at all, btw.

[SwordofLaban]

Let us look at the context of the time in order to understand the ban.

The ban on African-Americans holding the Priesthood occurred during a time in American history where the nation was very-much so divided on the issue of race. What would you have the Lord do, allow African-Americans to be ordained and have the Church face even swifter persecution then they had already been combating?

My point in the matter is simply this:

With polygamy, claims of continual revelation, new scriptures coming forth, and a large base of members that generally follow the counsel of their leaders the Church was all but damned from mainstream American society (and may I point out it still is in some regards yet today). Now would you expect a loving Heavenly Father to needlessly cause further persecutions to come upon his people by empowering a group of people in spite of the customs and practices of the American government at the time? I do not believe the Lord would do that.

I believe, personally, that the ban is based primarily on two things:

A) The Articles of Faith (based on the fact that we are to be loyal subjects to our government and its laws; and while ordaining African Americans would not necessarily be illegal, it would even further exacerbate the fires of revolution and internal conflict in our nation).

B ) 1 Nephi 4: 13 ...It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

Simply interpreted, it was better in the long run to not ordain African-Americans at that time than it would've been to ordain them due to the tremendous repercussions felt.

That's my take on it anyways.

If we really wanted to we could find fault in how Heavenly Father only covenanted with the Jews for many years before he opened up His arms to the Gentiles. But we never do that, now do we?

[Maureen]

Guidance versus intellectual reasoning. One is worldly and one is Spiritual...and normally the worldly reasoning will be opposite of what heaven says. Because all intellectual reasoning comes from the Ego and the Ego is an enemy of GOD....

The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth. (D&C 3:36)

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (Isaiah 1:18)

Really, intelligent reasoning is an enemy of God? Personally I disagree. If that's true though, what does it mean to LDS that the glory of God is intelligence?

M.

[bert10]

The Spirit of the world versus the Spirit of God. And also comparing Spiritual things with the Spiritual.

The intelligence of GOD is not man's thoughts or ways.

We see slivers of the truth and God sees the whole from the beginning to the end. Men usually take their slivers of truth and try to make it the whole truth for themselves and then force it on others.

We follow a line of reasoning sorta..... well based on what we call "Horse Sense." In that line of reasoning limits are imposed on our thinking and we close our mind to the possibilities of GOD where walking on water is a viable solution to a problem for example.

Isaiah 55:8 - For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 55:9 - For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

When we seek to understand the spiritual with the logic and reasoning of men, we will fail. Paul said....

1 Corinthians 2:12 - Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1 Corinthians 2:13 - Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Do you understand now?

We only know the truth when we are filled with Light. In the OT it was called...

Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD

All these things underlined are in the Light of GOD and when men are filled with Light..they do not walk according to the knowledge, understand and counsel of men but of God. The power and knowledge and understanding etc is given to men when they walk in Light as Christ is in Light (John)

And so they are called fools and mad by the world.

Hosea 9:7 - The days of visitation are come, the days of recompence are come; Israel shall know it: the prophet is a fool, the spiritual man is mad, for the multitude of thine iniquity, and the great hatred.

The natural man and all his ways are enemies to GOD and His Righteousness as he tries to impose solutions raised by His Ego...Only they who become the Spiritual man are reconciled to the Father.

bert10

Edited January 15, 2011 by bert10

[Suzie]

"And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith."

(D&C 88: 118)

It is not one or the other.

[bert10]

We live in Babylon and all of us has acquired learning in order to deal with the world. The problem is not earthly wisdom...it is men who begin to rely on it instead of that of God. It is hard to not rely on it once we have it.

We can see where worldly wisdom hurt people...for example I find some Bible translations are so horrendous that they are now an abomination and hide the truth instead of illuminating mankind.

Also remember all the time spent acquiring earthly wisdom is time taken away from finding the Kingdom of God.

And what is the promise of GOD to them that shall seek the kingdom first in their lives...that they are not to worry where clothes and food and shelter will come from...these are the worries of the Gentiles. That God is able to clothe the flowers better than Solomon ever could clothe himself. That God can feed all the birds that He created...He certainly can clothe and feed and house the Elect.

bert10

[Guest]

Why is it a problem that people may be open to other possibilities that you personally do not wish to consider or agree. I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with thinking differently on this topic or any other for that matter. I don't find your position disappointing at all, btw.

If it was just something like wearing pants versus skirt on Sunday then it is no big deal at all. But when you are affecting Priesthood Authority... THIS IS WHAT PROPHETIC KEYS are for!

I'm the primary song leader and today I was teaching the kids the second verse to If I Listen With My Heart.

"I hear a living prophet speak the things that Christ would say..."

Then I read this thread. Major. Disappointment.

Coz, if you can't trust the prophet to speak what Christ would say regarding Priesthood Authority, then what can you trust him on?

I consider everything the prophet instructs and I sustain it every year. If I find that I can't, then I'm going back to finding truth. Because that's when I would find, as I have found in the Catholic Church, that the true church is not led by the Spirit anymore. This is not a matter of whether I agree or not. This is a matter of is this from the Spirit or not? If I would be in church just for things I agree on, I surely won't be LDS! I surely don't find any problem with having a grande latte once in a while!

Edited January 17, 2011 by anatess

[HoosierGuy]

all that said i would like to make a note as a mod. pres young was a prophet of our church and this thread needs to stay respectful of that or it will be closed in a heartbeat.

There goes history out the window!

[pam]

There goes history out the window!

Explain that comment please.

[Suzie]

If it was just something like wearing pants versus skirt on Sunday then it is no big deal at all. But when you are affecting Priesthood Authority... THIS IS WHAT PROPHETIC KEYS are for!

I'm the primary song leader and today I was teaching the kids the second verse to If I Listen With My Heart.

"I hear a living prophet speak the things that Christ would say..."

Then I read this thread. Major. Disappointment.

Coz, if you can't trust the prophet to speak what Christ would say regarding Priesthood Authority, then what can you trust him on?

I consider everything the prophet instructs and I sustain it every year. If I find that I can't, then I'm going back to finding truth. Because that's when I would find, as I have found in the Catholic Church, that the true church is not led by the Spirit anymore. This is not a matter of whether I agree or not. This is a matter of is this from the Spirit or not? If I would be in church just for things I agree on, I surely won't be LDS! I surely don't find any problem with having a grande latte once in a while!

So basically, you have the belief that every thing the Prophet says it's the word of God? Is that what you are saying?

[bert10]

Suzie...just remember what they say...is their Testimony. Their testimony is not yours. Everyone is to get their own testimony on what they say. Church leaders used to teach for everyone to get their own testimony. Even J. Smith one day..had to admit that he was deceived on a thing that he had said. Our Leaders have weaknesses and Satan can cause hurt in a time when our guard is down. It is up to us to get our own testimony...and it is written in Revelation ....to have a testimony of Jesus Christ is by the spirit of prophecy. We were never commanded by GOD to blindly follow prophets. That is the teachings of men and the un-inspired. We can know the truth by the Spirit of truth. It is written...that there shall be a day when we all shall be taught of GOD. So, let's start this process to move along.

bert10

[slamjet]

So basically, you have the belief that every thing the Prophet says it's the word of God? Is that what you are saying?

I'm watching some of the TV shows about the Joseph Smith papers. If I remember correctly, he said a Prophet is a Prophet when he is about the business of a Prophet. I wouldn't hold every single word that Pres. Monson speaks at the dinner table as prophetic utterances. He's human, he's allowed to err. But when he's about the business of a Prophet such as speaking in church, giving blessings, when he says "Thus sayeth the Lord" (you get the idea) then I'll hang on his every word.

[Guest]

So basically, you have the belief that every thing the Prophet says it's the word of God? Is that what you are saying?

Incorrect. And I never said that. What i said is that everything the prophets do in the administration of this church (and no, discourses on the pulpit is not necessarily administering the church) is of God through the influence of the Holy Spirit. We may not know the reason why nor understand what it is for, but that's because of our lack, not the Spirit's lack in allowing a prophet of the Lord to deny some people the power to perform saving ordinances through the Holy Priesthood. As far as I sustain the prophet through personal revelation, I will leave my personal belongings and follow the prophet to the wilderness when he instructs the church to do so through his prophetic keys.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

I just want to say that I am an LDS Member so this isn't an anti-Mormon comment trying to drive people away from the religion.

The only problem I have is that something is out of place with the teachings of Brigham Young. Shortly after he took leadership he revoked all the priesthood blessings of the Black members in the church and he also revoked the temple rights for all the members. He also had taught against mixed marriages. What bothers me is that I have been a member of the LDS Church for 13 years and I still believe that Brigham Young failed as a prophet and there were also rumors that he was involved in a massacre.

I understand that a lot of what him and other prophets said could be considered questionable, but the fact is that he approved of the writings of the Journal of Disclosures and helped along with the sale of them once they were written.

What I think is that Brigham Young is at fault for many of the Anti-Mormons that are out there because he put the church through a period of corruptness which hadn't been brought back into balance until years later when polygamy was ended and then until we had not used race as a reason to deny someone the same blessings.

I want you to carefully read the following passage. Very slowly, very thoughtfully, and very carefully. Trust me, it is one eye opening reading that will make your head spin in so many directions that the movie exorcist will be child's play.

This is not Anti-Mormon, This is not fabricated lies, this is not something to take very lightly.

It is right out of the very source that many of us receive divine inspiration. It is right out of a source that we put our faith, trust, and hope in.

Most Christians who come to this passage and read it, tend to become very doubtful and tend to lean more toward atheistic thoughts and discussions.

This account is 1 Samuel 15. Trust me, you have to sit down and read it very carefully, maybe twice, or several times.

Then, and only then, when you have had enough of reading something like 1 Samuel 15, I want you to come back and read some of the accounts in the Journal of Discourse, I want you to read some of the things that Brigham Young taught.

Then, and only then, I want you to read about the history of Slavery (not the water down version), but read about how Christians treated some of the slaves, and what they preached.

Then, and only then, I want you to look at some of the laws that were in place (for instance, Virginia had a law where a wife and her lover caught in an adultreous affair, they were tried, convicted and put to death for the crime of Adultry).

Then, and only then, I want you to go back and read about how the Catholic Church punished, incarcerated, burned at the stake those who challenged the authority of the Church. Those who questioned the Church. Those who were called Heretics and hunted down (here is a hint, research and study Tyndale, Wycliffe, et all).

Once you have done all that, the end result - if you have serious questions about Brigham Young, they will pale in comparison as to some of the things you find that were done in the name of Christianity.

Crusades

Bosnian Christians murdering and raping Bosnian Muslims (research it)

Colonial Christians beating and starving slaves and treating them like beasts of the field.

I wish you luck in this venture. It is not to be mean spirited, it is not to ridicule you, it is to get you to open your eyes that the very same cases can be made against some of the more prominent figures in Scripture and Christian history and tradition.

These are things that evangelical "Christians" don't preach about and teach those who m they are witnessing too.

Sound familiar?

[Suzie]

Suzie...just remember what they say...is their Testimony. Their testimony is not yours. Everyone is to get their own testimony on what they say. Church leaders used to teach for everyone to get their own testimony. Even J. Smith one day..had to admit that he was deceived on a thing that he had said. Our Leaders have weaknesses and Satan can cause hurt in a time when our guard is down. It is up to us to get our own testimony...and it is written in Revelation ....to have a testimony of Jesus Christ is by the spirit of prophecy. We were never commanded by GOD to blindly follow prophets. That is the teachings of men and the un-inspired. We can know the truth by the Spirit of truth. It is written...that there shall be a day when we all shall be taught of GOD. So, let's start this process to move along.

bert10

Well, in my opinion we should all seek for confirmation . It concerns me when people just follow without this confirmation.