How can people believe in this version of the trinity:

[LDSChristian]

This is what I don't get about people of other faiths. They know Jesus Christ is the Son of God but then they say God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are one God. The long way of saying that would be to say Jesus Christ is the Son of God the Father, Jesus Christ (Himself), and the Holy Ghost. Has anyone else caught the flaw with the trinity people today believe in? Some people say "well in this case it's talking about God the Father" but that would take away from their own belief about the traditional trinity. We, however, know the trinity (biblical term is the godhead) teaches they are of one purpose.

Ephesians 1:2-3

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Notice how verse 3 says "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

Why do people of other faiths not know that?

[JimmyDiggs]

Depends on what translation you are using, and ultimately how accurate it is. Passages like these vary by translation/version/etc.

Heres a sample.

Ephesians 1:2New International Version (©1984)

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

New Living Translation (©2007)

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.

English Standard Version (©2001)

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

International Standard Version (©2008)

May grace and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus, the Messiah, be yours!

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)

Good will and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ are yours!

King James Bible

Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.

American King James Version

Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

American Standard Version

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Bible in Basic English

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Douay-Rheims Bible

Grace be to you, and peace from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Darby Bible Translation

Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

English Revised Version

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Webster's Bible Translation

Grace be to you, and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Weymouth New Testament

May grace and peace be granted to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

World English Bible

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Young's Literal Translation

Grace to you, and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ!

[Backroads]

Personally I have never quite grasped the concept of the Trinity. Would someone mind explaining it to me?

[HiJolly]

This is what I don't get about people of other faiths. They know Jesus Christ is the Son of God but then they say God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are one God.

Don't forget that this is what the Book of Mormon says, too. Several times.

Ephesians 1:2-3

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Notice how verse 3 says "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

Why do people of other faiths not know that?

They know it. Don't confuse trinitarianism with modalism. Big mistake many LDS make, and it just shows how ignorant we are.

HiJolly

[MarginOfError]

This is what I don't get about people of other faiths. They know Jesus Christ is the Son of God but then they say God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are one God. The long way of saying that would be to say Jesus Christ is the Son of God the Father, Jesus Christ (Himself), and the Holy Ghost. Has anyone else caught the flaw with the trinity people today believe in? Some people say "well in this case it's talking about God the Father" but that would take away from their own belief about the traditional trinity. We, however, know the trinity (biblical term is the godhead) teaches they are of one purpose.

Ephesians 1:2-3

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Notice how verse 3 says "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

Why do people of other faiths not know that?

It wouldn't help to be a little more respectful when asking these kinds of questions.

"How can people believe in this version of the trinity" comes across with a type of condescension--almost contempt--that implies that your belief is so much more superior. It doesn't give the impression of honest inquiry, which I sincerely hope is the goal of this post.

[prisonchaplain]

We've had 15 threads on this topic...just using the title search.

LDS Social Network Forums - Search Results

The short version is:

The Father is God

The Son is God

The Holy Spirit is God

Each is a distinct person

BUT...there is only one God

SO...the three persons are the one God

Where trouble comes is in trying to reason out HOW that works. How can the three be one? Scripture simply reveals that it is so. BTW, the OP may be mixing trinitarianism with modalism.

[HiJolly]

If you substitute the word Christian creedal word "substance" for the LDS scriptural word "intelligence", then there's really no difference between a trinitarianist and a mormon view of the Godhead. IMO.

HiJolly

Edited January 13, 2011 by HiJolly
withdrawing from pontificating, if only marginally...

[LDSChristian]

It wouldn't help to be a little more respectful when asking these kinds of questions.

I wasn't asking in a disrespectful way so...

[prisonchaplain]

The major difference is that the LDS Godhead is a united in purpose only. LDS scholars seem divided over whether to insist that the LDS definition of monotheism is sufficient (Robinson), or whether it really could be called henotheism (loyalty to one God, while allowing for the existence of others). There have even been a couple of LDS posters here who have wondered aloud of polytheism is such as bad thing.

Trinitarians may not satisfy Jews and Muslims, with our three-person God, but you will not find any who would label themselves anything other than a monotheist. We insist that we believe in one God alone.

Another factor that intersects with the discussion is the doctrine of humanity. The LDS belief that some will exalt to Godhood adds fuel to the criticism that it is not a monotheistic faith. The end result is humanity attaining Godhood, vs. the trinitarian belief that we will for all eternity remain loyal creation, gratefully and joyfully worshiping our Creator, who will always be God, while we will always be human.

Edited January 13, 2011 by prisonchaplain

[prisonchaplain]

I wasn't asking in a disrespectful way so...

Some people are quick to tune in on perceived attitudes. "Don't they know?" "I don't understand how they could . . . " Those types of phrases lead some readers to believe you are implying dullness on the part of trinitarians. It does not have to be read that way, but some--especially those who've been engaged in difficult interfaith conversations--are extra aware of how things "sound."

[Guest]

Before you criticize Trinitarianism, make sure you understand exactly what it means. Because, the way you're describing it... is not what it means.

[pam]

Let's move on with the discussion and try not to be accusing. The OP has a question he would like discussed. We can discuss it respectfully. Let's remember words can come across differently on a forum.

[Guest]

Let's move on with the discussion and try not to be accusing. The OP has a question he would like discussed. We can discuss it respectfully. Let's remember words can come across differently on a forum.

Okay, so what exactly are we discussing here? The erroneous understanding of the OP about Trinitarianism, or the differences between Trinitarianism and the Godhead and which is correct? Because, if it's the 2nd topic, it has been discussed here ad nauseum as somebody pointed out.

[Maureen]

Personally I have never quite grasped the concept of the Trinity. Would someone mind explaining it to me?

Backroads, this is how I described the Trinity in a previous thread:

The correct way to define the Trinity is with specific words. The Trinity is three persons in one God (being, nature, essence). Scripture tells us that there is only one God (only one divine being). That can never change. But scripture also shows us that there is a Father, Son (Jesus) and Comforter (Holy Spirit). Scripture, in very subtle ways, shows us that these 3 have relationships with each other. All three have Godlike qualities, characteristics but there can't be three Gods because scripture tells us there is only one, therefore all three are one God.

I like to see the Trinity as a paradox:

"A paradox does not mean that something is irrefutably wrong, simply that we don't yet understand what we're seeing." (IAMTheWork, lds.net)

M. :)

[prisonchaplain]

I believe we're discussing the Trinity in general...and how it is that we 2.2 billion Christians who believe in it could do so. Here's my most recent teaching on the matter:

WHO IS GOD?

Introduction: Who is God. We define Him as Holy Trinity.

1. Tri = three, unity = one.

2. God is three yet one.

3. We believe that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.

4. Yet, there is only one God.

5. The three persons are the one God.

Proposition: The most basic question to ask of a religion is, AWho do you say that God is?@

Christians believe God is best described as Holy Trinity.

Interrogative: What does Holy Trinity mean, and how does this understanding of God effect my relationship with Him?

Transition: First we believe in the Father.

I. The Father is God.

A. Jesus= prayer in Matthew 6:9.

THIS THEN, IS HOW YOU SHOULD PRAY: OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN, HALLOWED BE YOUR NAME.

B. Only God is worthy of worship. The first commandment.

C. Jews, Muslims and Christians have always agreed that the Father is God.

Transition: Many religions say there is a father figure who can be called God.

Christians are unique in proclaiming that Jesus is God.

II. The Son is God.

A. He claimed to be God.

1. John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14:

AI TELL YOU THE TRUTH,@ JESUS ANSWERED, ABEFORE ABRAHAM WAS BORN, AI AM!@ ... GOD SAID TO MOSES, AI AM WHO I AM. THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE TO SAY TO THE ISRAELITES: >I AM@ HAS SENT ME TO YOU.@

Jesus uses the name of God for himself. He also declares his eternal preexistence.

2. Matthew 9:1-6: Jesus claims the power to do what only God can doBforgive sins.

3. The Father calls Jesus God: Hebrews 1:8

BUT ABOUT THE SON HE SAYS, AYOUR THRONE, O GOD, WILL LAST FOREVER AND EVER, AND RIGHTEOUSNESS WILL BE THE SCEPTER OF YOUR KINGDOM.@

4. Jesus receives worship. Recall that the first commandment says that only God is to be worshiped.

a. From angels: Hebrews 1:6

AND AGAIN, WHEN GOD BRINGS HIS FIRSTBORN INTO THE WORLD, HE SAYS, ALET ALL GOD=S ANGELS WORSHIP HIM.@

b. From Thomas: John 20:27-29

Transition: Christians proclaim the deity of Christ.

Beyond this, we say that the Holy Spirit is God, and is a person, distinct from the Father and the Son.

III. The Holy Spirit is God

A. He is referred in a manner synonymous with God. Acts 5:3-4

B. Many believe that the Holy Spirit is simply another name for God, or that it is a term representing the power of God.

However, the Holy Spirit is described in terms of personality.

1. He is lied to.

2. He has characteristics. Galations 5:22-23 (fruit of the Spirit).

Transition: So far we have said that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

DOES THIS TEACHING MAKE CHRISTIANS TRI-THEISTICBBELIEVERS IN THREE GODS?

IV. God is one: Deuteronomy 6:4

HEAR, O ISRAEL: THE LORD OUR GOD, THE LORD IS ONE.

Transition: The Trinity seems to be a complicated teaching.

ARE THERE EXAMPLES OR DEMONSTRATIONS OF GOD IN THREE PERSONS?

V. Pictures of the Trinity

A. The baptism of Jesus (Mark 1:9-11)

1. Jesus receives baptism.

2. The Holy Spirit descends on him.

3. The Father blesses him.

B. Mathematics

1. 1+1+1 = 3

2. 1X1X1 = 1

Transition: I believe that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, yet one. How does this understanding effect my Christian practice?

VI. The doctrine of the Trinity informs our Christian living.

A. It effects our understanding of God.

1. The Father is God, and is a distinct person.

2. The Son is God, and is a distinct person.

3. The Holy Spirit is God, and is a distinct person.

4. These three persons are the one true and living God.

B. It effects our spiritual practice.

1. We generally pray to the Father, in the name of Jesus.

2. It is proper to worship JesusBthe Bible has many examples of the Son being worshiped.

3. It is proper to direct requests for power or comfort to the Holy Spirit.

4. Scripture specifically commands us to pray in Jesus name for two types of needs. Mark 16:17-18

a. The prayer of faith to cast out demons.

b. The prayer of faith for healing.

C. It protects us from false religion.

1. The Trinity has withstood 2000 years of examination and opposition.

2. The Trinity has united Christians of different denominations.

a. Promise Keepers

b. Even the rather liberal Council of Churches.

3. The Trinity has protected the church from corrupting doctrines.

a. Roughly 300 years after Jesus returned to the Father, Bishop Arius introduced a false teaching.

i. He said that Jesus was perhaps a god, but not GodBnot equal to the Father.

ii. Church leaders gathered to seek God=s help. The concluded that the teaching was heresy.

iii. Today, this teaching is still taught by heretical groups, but it has never been embraced by Christian believers at large.

b. About 90 years ago a false teaching arose in my denomination.

i. It denied the Trinity, and said only Jesus is God.

ii. This belief was rejected by my church, and by Christian believers of most churches, whether denominational or independent.

CONCLUSIONS

1. God is Holy Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Three persons, yet one God.

2. Understanding the Trinity means understanding God.

3. Understanding the Trinity means praying more confidantly and effectively.

4. Understanding the Trinity means we are protecting from incorrect teachings, and ultimately unortodox religion.

[Vanhin]

a. Roughly 300 years after Jesus returned to the Father, Bishop Arius introduced a false teaching.

i. He said that Jesus was perhaps a god, but not GodBnot equal to the Father.

ii. Church leaders gathered to seek God=s help. The concluded that the teaching was heresy.

iii. Today, this teaching is still taught by heretical groups, but it has never been embraced by Christian believers at large.

So, how different is what Bishop Arius taught than what the Savior teaches in the Bible?

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. (Luke 18:19)

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)

Regards,

Vanhin

[Wingnut]

It wouldn't help to be a little more respectful when asking these kinds of questions.

I think you mean that it wouldn't hurt.

I wasn't asking in a disrespectful way so...

You may not have meant it in a disrespectful way, but it could be perceived as such.

Okay pammy, I'm done. :)

[Vanhin]

I guess I'm curious as to what motivated the councils to adopt such a cumbersome doctrine to comprehend and explain, in face of direct statements from the Savior in the Bible that teach otherwise. Was/is it motivated by the desire to maintain a perceived monotheism at all cost? Or what is it?

It seems it would have been far more consistent with the words in the New Testament to adopt a "one in purpose" understanding instead. Like how a married couple should be one (Gen. 2:24). Or like how we can become one with the Father like the Son is one with Him.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: (John 17:22)

I used to think that last scripture I quoted was our ace in the hole, but Trinitarians never address that scripture, when it seems so plain.

Any thoughts?

Regards,

Vanhin

[Maureen]

Originally Posted by MarginOfError

It wouldn't help to be a little more respectful when asking these kinds of questions.

I think you mean that it wouldn't hurt....

Or, "It would help to be a little more respectful....." would also make more sense. :)

M.

[MarginOfError]

it wouldn't help to be a little more respectful when asking these kinds of questions.

i think you mean that it wouldn't hurt

or, "it would help to be a little more respectful....." would also make more sense. :)

m.

doh!

[Traveler]

It is my understanding that those that believe in the Trinity do so relying more on faith than on logic. In essence G-d is a mystery that cannot be understood by man. I have little problem with that - except when someone decides to, by whatever means, to force their beliefs on others.

I claim the privilege to worship and define G-d according to my conscience. I also allow and encourage all other do likewise. Do not try to burn down my house or the house of my neighbor for not believing in G-d as you define him and I will not threaten your life over such actions.

And if you want to convince me that your understanding of G-d is superior to mine then do so by your fruits and deeds and not by worshiping with your mouth only.

The Traveler

[LDSChristian]

So, how different is what Bishop Arius taught than what the Savior teaches in the Bible?

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. (Luke 18:19)

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)

Regards,

Vanhin

What's amazing is Jesus Christ said that Himself, one who is without sin, isn't good. Whatever dictionaries say the definition of humble is they need to take the definition out and just put Luke 18:19 beside of it.

[prisonchaplain]

So, how different is what Bishop Arius taught than what the Savior teaches in the Bible?

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. (Luke 18:19)

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)

Regards,

Vanhin

Perhaps Jesus was being coy. You call me good--you're right--I am God! As for greatness, sons defer to their fathers in most cultures. It's a matter of authority and respect, not quality of species.

[HoosierGuy]

I'm currently reading a short bio on Constantine I and just read about the Council of Nicaea

and the divinity question. Interesting how some of the Bishops stood their ground and would not change their opinion even for the Emperor himself. There were so many beliefs back then it gets confusing keeping them all in order.

[prisonchaplain]

I guess I'm curious as to what motivated the councils to adopt such a cumbersome doctrine to comprehend and explain, in face of direct statements from the Savior in the Bible that teach otherwise. Was/is it motivated by the desire to maintain a perceived monotheism at all cost? Or what is it?

What is it that seems so obvious? That Jesus and the Father are not both God? It's my understanding that LDS teaching about Jesus is not subordinationism--am I wrong? Jesus was repeatedly accused of claiming to be God. He called himself the I AM. He accepted Thomas' worship. To me and the 2.2 billion trinitarians in the world today, Christ's deity is just as self-evident.

It seems it would have been far more consistent with the words in the New Testament to adopt a "one in purpose" understanding instead. Like how a married couple should be one (Gen. 2:24). Or like how we can become one with the Father like the Son is one with Him.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: (John 17:22)

I used to think that last scripture I quoted was our ace in the hole, but Trinitarians never address that scripture, when it seems so plain.

They certainly did have the same purpose. Jesus obeyed his Father unto death. He did not "want" to. But he did. His dad asked him to.

None of those passages dissuade us from believing that Jesus was also one with the Father in his Godhood. Even naturalistic thinking makes this obvious to me. We beget what we are. How could the one and only Son of God be anything other than what God is?