War In Heaven Question...

[prophetofdoom]

I think Satan's plan had major problems... no free agency? How could we progress without it? There is no way we could have become like Heavenly Father without the essential free agency. Satan's plan was very contradictory.

[LDSChristian]

That clicks... So agency being an intricate part of the plan and his opposition to it meant that he opposed the method. And if the method was not the same, then the end was different since Lucifer's plan negated the need for different Kingdoms. Thus Lucifer's plan, by design, was not the same as Father in Heaven's plan.

So in the end, it really was a war of opposing plans, not differences in administration of the plan.

Now it's becoming clear. Thanks.

Which is what I've said from the beginning. So I answered what the "big boys" couldn't. The whole war in Heaven thing is very simple to understand. It's been taught in our ward before, that's how I know the answer to the question.

[rameumptom]

I agree with Beefche that it was more on who would be the Savior of mankind.

Abraham 3 teaches us that there was only one plan offered: God's. The only question was, "Whom shall I send?" (see also Isaiah 6:1-6 for a corollary). When Satan offered himself to be the Messiah, he then wanted to go back and make serious changes to the plan: 1. limit agency so that all would be saved without the dangers and struggles of life (security), and 2. replace God and receive all the glory for himself.

IOW, he was attempting a slick overthrow from within. It didn't work, so he then attempted a full rebellion to take over (see Isa 14). His main goal was not to save mankind, but to be all powerful God and have no one above him.

His plan would have kept him as the only powerful being, because without struggles and trials, none of us could ever understand enough to become true Gods ourselves. Agency was necessary for growth and life (2 Nephi 2). Without a real Savior to rescue us from perdition, we would have had no choice at all, but to be servant devils to a devil forever.

So it really does come down (as LDSChristian mentioned) to who should be Savior.

[pam]

I think it came down to power and glory. God's plan would be implemented in the manner He wanted/decided and glory would go to Him. Satan wanted to insure that all would receive salvation/exultation and wanted the glory for himself.

And I think I said that same thing in post #2 of this thread.

[jayanna]

That's what I always thought but as I followed the logic (I'm a computer guy,it's how I think) I can think of a few issues:

Free agency would be suspended to ensure full compliance and guarantee eternal life. With this, there would be no need for:

• - A Savior since no one would sin
• - Degrees of glory since all would receive Exaltation

To the architect of the plan goes all the glory, so we would not be worshiping Heavenly Father but:

• - We would be worshiping Lucifer, Son of the Morning.
• - We would be exalted to live with Lucifer since he would have all the Glory.

So this would be a radical enough change in Heavenly Fathers plan that it can very well be seen as an opposing plan in full.

I don't think we would be able to be exalted, but rather, like animals, able to recive an eternal existence. Being exalted would make us equals, so I don't think he would allow us to be equals, but rather his eternal servants. That jerk.

[rameumptom]

And to add to Jayanna's post, I'd say that some of Satan's followers would be more equal than others. Just as some in the Soviet Union drove in limousines and lived in mansions, most lived in hovels and walked; we would see that Satan would have cronies that he would take care of, and the rest would get the leftovers (slop the hogs?).

[slamjet]

I don't think we would be able to be exalted, but rather, like animals, able to recive an eternal existence. Being exalted would make us equals, so I don't think he would allow us to be equals, but rather his eternal servants. That jerk.

Something else to add to the mix. I'm thinking that he was manipulating his way to the top. trying to hide his real motives. I'm started putting it all down on paper. I'm finding this a fascinating mental exercise. Because it entails reading between the lines on a very few scriptures on the subject. But what's fascinating is that there is a lot to be gleaned from just a few verses.

[Connie]

That clicks... So agency being an intricate part of the plan and his opposition to it meant that he opposed the method. And if the method was not the same, then the end was different since Lucifer's plan negated the need for different Kingdoms. Thus Lucifer's plan, by design, was not the same as Father in Heaven's plan.

So in the end, it really was a war of opposing plans, not differences in administration of the plan.

Now it's becoming clear. Thanks.

I like your conclusions here, and i think it meshes with what is being said by most here. I notice most everyone here acknowledging that Satan’s plan was a very different plan with a very different end. And perhaps that’s where his deception and subtlety came in. He said, “the goal is still the same. In fact, it’s better because everyone will be saved.” When in reality changing the means to that goal would, in fact, change the goal itself. Perhaps that is why it is said he is a liar from the beginning. The real goal based on Satan’s method was that he would be the one with the power and everyone else would be in varying degrees of lackeyhood (I don’t think that’s a word, but you get the point)—some “more equal than others,” as ram said. That makes sense to me.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

deleted post,

Thought this was a different thread... weird.

[questioning_seeker]

I think I'd rather have a guarenteed ticket to the celestial kingdom any time, and arrive there ignorant and underdeveloped, (Lucifer's plan) with an eternity to then do all the necessary learning rather than a very very small chance of reaching the celestial kingdom, with all the necessary learning and development having been completed before arriving. (Christ's plan). As for the idea that Lucifer would have a somewhat greater role if his plan had been followed, I don't think we can draw that conclusion. God can write up whatever rules He wants, and if He didn't want Lucifer to occupy the role that Christ now does, even if it was Lucifer's plan that we followed, God could easily arrange for that to be so.

[stormwitch]

I think Satan's plan had major problems... no free agency? How could we progress without it? There is no way we could have become like Heavenly Father without the essential free agency. Satan's plan was very contradictory.

Well I ask myself: If it was obvious that according to Satans plan we could not progress - and maybe even not receive exaltation - WHY did so many of our brothers and sisters follow him? There must have been something more convincing and promising to his plan...

To me agency and the plan itself cannot be considered apart. They together make the reason for the war.

(I hope what I wrote is understandable.. its four in the morning, and a foreign language is more difficult when you get tired )

[Blackmarch]

So we talked about the War in Heaven in priesthood today and I came out of it with one question that's neither here nor there, but nevertheless seemed interesting to me:

Moses 4:1-3

1. And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

2. But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

3. Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

Is this saying that Satan didn't have an issue with the Plan of Salvation per-se, just how it was going to be implemented? The real question in the War in Heaven was the matter of Agency and who would end up being God and not so much the plan itself? Or am I sounding confused?

actually i'd wager that would be fairly close to the truth.

Unfortunately we don't really have the specifics of what caused Lucifer to turn sour other than having his alternative being rejected.

[LDSChristian]

actually i'd wager that would be fairly close to the truth.

Unfortunately we don't really have the specifics of what caused Lucifer to turn sour other than having his alternative being rejected.

It's good that we're given what there is in regards to the war in heaven though.

[mordorbund]

I don't think we would be able to be exalted, but rather, like animals, able to recive an eternal existence. Being exalted would make us equals, so I don't think he would allow us to be equals, but rather his eternal servants. That jerk.

So far as I'm concerned, Satan can go to hell.

[pam]

So far as I'm concerned, Satan can go to hell.

[Blackmarch]

It's good that we're given what there is in regards to the war in heaven though.

true that.

[Seminarysnoozer]

It is very surprising to me that some people who are LDS do not recognize how vastly different Satan's plan was from Heavenly Father's. Satan had a VERY different plan in mind.

(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 4:1 - 3)

1 AND I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

What would it take to "redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost"? It would mean taking away everyone's agency - of coarse if you take away agency, it is impossible to redeem anyone - so in Satan's plan, no one was redeemed, no one had agency, everyone would become Satan's puppets for eternity.... very different plan indeed...

You could also say it the other way around. If his plan was to redeem everyone regardless of what they did, then by definition they would have no agency because agency requires being responsible for one's actions. He is suggesting that nobody would ultimately be responsible for anything they did because everyone is redeemed (kind of like his continued message to some on this planet now - that all we have to do is believe and we are saved).

I don't think Lucifer really understood what salvation was. Just like the moms that want every child to get a "winning" trophy at the end of a soccer league even if they lost every game. That really isn't a "winning" (to use a popular phrase nowadays) trophy, it is a fake trophy, its a trophy just for participating not "winning". Likewise, his "salvation" was a fake, empty salvation.