Forcing the masses to credit cards?

[rubondfan2]

Well, it seems the bankers are implementing the next stage in exercising financial control over the masses. It appears to be coming in a two-pronged approach:

1) The elimination of the magnetic stripe cards and implementation of embedded chips (already in widespread use throughout the EU)

The future of banking? Credit card that contains a computer will read aloud your balance | Mail Online

2) Caps on debit card transactions, which will drastically limit the financial options for those without credit cards (whether by choice or default due to bad or no credit)

Debit card spending limit? Banks consider a $50 cap - Mar. 10, 2011

Now, I'm no fan of the "bankers" as many of you have noticed from my past posts, and I am again very concerned about worldwide movements happening under our noses. I wonder if anyone is paying attention?

You see, the use of a debit card, in my view is good thing. Many do not have the discipline to utilize a credit card responsibly and the debit card is a great alternative. I use debit cards exclusively and do not even own a credit card... no, not a single one. And I don't want one... period. Debit card transactions are also tied to a checking account which is a little tougher for big brother to monitor without cause and a court order. Credit card transactions on the other hand are wide open to big brother monitoring. Information about the habits of the masses is a key step in the agenda of any organization or groups who ultimately want to influence... or worse yet, control... the masses. Imposing restrictions such as the ones proposed upon debit cards will lead to more people using credit cards and more inconveniences and less freedom imposed upon folks who either don't want or can't obtain a credit card. Imagine having to go to the ATM machine everytime you wanted to make a purchase over $100? Heck, my Costco trips are $600 minimum... and I can't even take $600 out of an ATM in one day with my particular bank. Plus, what if I don't want to walk around with a wad of cash in my pocket?

At any rate, I digress. The point here, is that for those who are looking and paying attention; this is, in my opinion, another step being taken by a small number of people to execute a very old, well thought out and carefully executed secret combination. Very large and influencial things in our world have been changing steadily for the past 100 years or so. The changes are accelerating. People in general are more asleep than ever and freedoms are being lost all around us and only a precious few are doing or saying anything about it. In fact, even here on this forum, I won't be at all surprised to have many comment on my thread something to the effect of:

"Yeah, this will be a little inconvenience, but in the end no big deal."

or...

"Well, gosh, all the money that banks are losing because of the current debit card program structure is what is causing this move... it makes sense... it may not be a 'good' thing, but it's really not part of a secret combination; you're over-reacting bondfan."

I point your attention to the first link to the EU article about talking credit cards. Read it carefully and note especially the statements which allude to the "bankers" "controlling" the "behavior" of "billions" of people. This goes to the heart of my point about secret combinations. The "bankers" really are a small group of elite folks whose names most of us don't even know. There really aren't hundreds of different banks in the world today. The entire banking system worldwide is controlled and manipulated by a literal handful of people... just as is the media worldwide. Don't just take my word for it. Study it out for yourselves.

It's things like this debit card situation that to me, are huge warning signs of what is to come and what is happening right in front of our very eyes. Those with eyes to see and ears to hear will notice it. The others... well I guess just go back to watching the next episode of Survivor... because, after all... all is well in Zion, right?

[Guest]

I disagree with your viewpoint on the matter.

I am not a fan of debit cards and, if what you're saying is correct about debit card limits (I did not research the matter, nor followed your links), then I see that as more of a consumer protection than a drawback. A positive thing!

Debit cards are dangerous things. It offers very minimum consumer protection. I'll give you an example - you go to Costco and buy a $200 TV. You go home, check your bank balance and you realize they charged you $100 extra for shipping... which was ridiculous because you took the TV home in your van. So you go to your bank to contest the charge. GOOD LUCK. You are just out of $100 and the bank/Costco has no incentive to refund that money back to you.

I never use Debit Cards. I use a Credit Card which I pay off at the end of each month within the grace period before interest kicks in. If they charge me $100 for shipping that I didn't purchase, I contest the charge to the credit card company and file a report to all 3 credit bureaus. I'm not out $100. There are other major drawbacks to using debit cards.

Also, consumer purchases are not limited to Debit Cards for those who do not have a Credit Card. Check books are still in use in society, my man.

And lastly, your consumer purchase is monitored even if you use debit cards. All debit cards go through the major credit networks - Visa, Mastercard, etc. The purchase is recorded at the time of transaction by the store, the credit company (Visa, Mastercard, etc.), and your bank. If you don't want your purchase tracked, pay cash.

Edited March 10, 2011 by anatess

[rubondfan2]

...then I see that as more of a consumer protection than a drawback. A positive thing!

Not surprised to see a comment such as this. And if looking at this subject from the very limited of perspective of whether or not Credit/Debit cards are good/bad, then I see your point. I'm talking about the issue from an entirely different point of view.

Debit cards are dangerous things. It offers very minimum consumer protection. I'll give you an example - you go to Costco and buy a $200 TV. You go home, check your bank balance and you realize they charged you $100 extra for shipping... which was ridiculous because you took the TV home in your van. So you go to your bank to contest the charge. GOOD LUCK. You are just out of $100 and the bank/Costco has no incentive to refund that money back to you.

It sounds like you've bought into the anti-debit card propaganda. If you've actually had an experience such as the one you describe, then I am sorry to hear it and I can imagine how frustrating it was.

Again, I'm not going to debate the nuances of the pro's/con's of Credit vs. Debit cards, however I will say that over the past 7 years, I have transacted more than $300,000 through my debit card and have had only had a very small number of situations similar to that which you describe and I was able to resolve all of them to my satisfaction in a short period of time.

There are other major drawbacks to using debit cards.

Interesting article. Clearly written with pro-credit card interests in mind. More than half of the "disadvantages" noted are related to poor money management/awareness on the part of the user... in which case, they shouldn't be using either a credit card or debit card.

Check books are still in use in society, my man.

Hmm... now that is an interesting comment. My initial guess is that you have lived in the same area for an extended period of time? If so, then yes, I suppose writing checks is an option for you. But for those who travel extensively, such as I and my family do... including international travel... writing checks is absolutely not an option.

And lastly, your consumer purchase is monitored even if you use debit cards. All debit cards go through the major credit networks - Visa, Mastercard, etc. The purchase is recorded at the time of transaction by the store, the credit company (Visa, Mastercard, etc.), and your bank. If you don't want your purchase tracked, pay cash.

This really misses the overall point of the banking industry moving toward a model where even greater financial control over consumers can be exercised... greater transaction transparency to the financial industry over consumer behavior... greater reliance upon the credit bureaus (don't even get me started on them)... and greater ability to monitor the movements of the masses. The idea of a microprocessor inside of a piece of plastic that is on my person... wow... that is just plain mortifying to think about.

I am reminded of the scripture about the last days being a time when we would call good evil and evil good. "Gosh, it's a good thing to have our movements tracked throughout the globe." Or, "It's a good thing to protect consumers." How about protecting ourselves? Or has that concept gotten lost in the noise of social agendas, government safety nets and reliance upon others to provide what we should be providing for ourselves?

[pam]

I could say that credit cards are even more riskier than debit cards in that many people can't control their credit card debt. I don't own a credit card because I am one that years ago fell into the credit card debt nightmare. I only own a debit card and it limits my spending to what I have in my account. I can at least reserve a car rental, hotel room and other things with my debit card since it has the Visa logo.

I would rather run the risk and the headache of being overcharged and fighting to get my $100 back than to be several hundred or thousands in debt.

[rubondfan2]

...many people can't control their credit card debt.

Thank you for your post. I agree with your sentiments.

And this particular part of your comment also drives at the heart of the overall issue. How many hundreds of thousands of people are in a perpetual cycle of bondage over credit card debt? Credit card companies... and the financial few who own/control them make their money off the interest charged on carried balances. What better way to entice more consumers to this model than to make using a debit card inconvenient to the point of obsolesence?

Manipulation, control, greed and power. All the elements behind every secret combination ever conceived since the days of Cain.

Edited March 10, 2011 by rubondfan2

[pam]

What's amazing are the stories I'm hearing from people I know that have been with the same credit card for years. They are late on one payment and find that their interest rate has been increased. Not only their interest rate but their spending limit is raised. Why? To get them to use it more and the company makes more off of the interest.

[Wingnut]

The idea of a microprocessor inside of a piece of plastic that is on my person... wow... that is just plain mortifying to think about.

So you don't carry a cell phone then, either?

I am reminded of the scripture about the last days being a time when we would call good evil and evil good.

I think it's somewhat a matter of perspective. For example, I think a happy medium needs to be found. The prophets have counseled us for years to stay out of debt, and debt is obviously a huge problem in our society. However, I think it's -- generally speaking -- a pretty stupid idea to not have a credit card at all. I know someone whose husband, when they married, had never had a credit card. He'd paid cash for a cheap used car that he'd been driving for years. Maybe that sound frugal and prudent, but when they tried to purchase a home, she had to put the loan entirely in her name, because he had no credit record at all. He couldn't get a loan for a house or for a car when they needed new(er) cars.

Prudence should be exercised, but that doesn't mean swinging all the way to an extreme.

Or, "It's a good thing to protect consumers." How about protecting ourselves?

Are we not consumers?

[pam]

However, I think it's a pretty stupid idea to not have a credit card at all.

Nice to know that I am now considered stupid for choosing not to have a credit card.

[Canuck Mormon]

Nice to know that I am now considered stupid for choosing not to have a credit card.

Well, I mean, who would give a credit card to someone who's collateral is gum drop buttons?!?!?!?!

[beefche]

Pam, wingy said "generally speaking" and then provided an example of when it may not be a good idea to have a credit card to establish credit.

[rubondfan2]

He couldn't get a loan for a house or for a car when they needed new(er) cars.

The system, the system, the system. It's this kind of a response that I knew was going to come out here. And it's ok. I get that so many of us are stuck on the conveyor belt on which we were placed the day we were born and then the moment we were put in front of a TV for the first time and the day we were tossed into the public school system. I get it, I do, really.

Since when do we need to rely upon our credit bureau scores to buy a house? How long have the three credit bureaus even been in existence? (You can study that out for yourself.) How did someone buy a home in 1910... 1920 or even 1950? What about in the 1800's? And going into debt to buy a car?? Well, I'm not going to get started on that one.

The more entrenched one is in the system of things, the more easily they can be monitored, manipulated and controlled. And this is the point of my initial post. I'm not arguing the nuances within the system. I'm calling out the system in general.

[Guest]

Calling out the Credit Card as the evil behind people's financial ruin is the exact same as calling out Facebook as the evil behind people's divorces.

And, for your information, the Credit Card is not the only thing that has a microchip. Even the refrigerator has a microchip!

I, for one, have a microchip on my person at all times required by the United States Government buried inside my green card (yeah, I do travel. A lot more than you probably. I'm not American even!). And no, I don't use debit nor credit cards when I travel... You kidding me? Relying on the bank to determine the currency exchange rate??? And no, I don't use my checkbook either! There are a lot more methods of payment, you know.

You have microchip right next to your ear as Wingnut has pointed out with your cellphone.

Hey, you are using the internet! I'm betting you money that Pam's gum drops can locate you through your account on lds.net! A giant microchip right there on your fingertips!

The system, eh? Unless you want to live back in the 1800's, you are stuck with the modern world. Like it or not. The trick is to know how to navigate the system. Not everybody is out to get you! And even if they are, you have this thing called Free Agency - last time I checked, America is still a free country. You don't like to be monitored, manipulated, and controlled? Move to the Philippines! Otherwise, learn how to work within the system so you can't be manipulated and controlled by anybody.

You say you are well-travelled - if you don't want to be monitored, you shouldn't go inside any airport. Heck, don't walk into any store... including the gas station in the corner. Those cameras are all there... out to get ya! Wooo hooo....

[Dravin]

How did someone buy a home in 1910... 1920 or even 1950? What about in the 1800's?

Most didn't, the American dream phenomena of 'everyone' buying their own house is relatively recent, people built their homes or rented (homes or apartments) previously. Though 1950s is getting into the American dream phenomena and was a result of the government helping GIs get access to debt via the GI bill to buy houses.

Edited March 10, 2011 by Dravin

[rubondfan2]

Calling out the Credit Card as the evil behind people's financial ruin is the exact same as calling out Facebook as the evil behind people's divorces.

It's not the credit card that I'm calling out. It's the system and I'll keep saying that, no matter how myopic you want to try and take this discussion.

And, for your information, the Credit Card is not the only thing that has a microchip. Even the refrigerator has a microchip!

Thanks for illustrating my point. I don't travel around with my refrigerator in my pocket.

You have microchip right next to your ear as Wingnut has pointed out with your cellphone.

Well that's a bit of an assumption now, isn't it? Up until recently I haven't carried a cell phone and the one I do have is a pay as you go that isn't traceable to me personally.

The system, eh? Unless you want to live back in the 1800's, you are stuck with the modern world. Like it or not. The trick is to know how to navigate the system.

I never said not to live in the system or that I don't live in it. Am I of it... that's the better question to be asking... and not of me, but of ourselves individually and collectively. Recognition that there is a system is the first step in a list of many to arm yourself as one of the soldiers in the fight for righteousness and against combinations that tear at the very fabric of society.

Not everybody is out to get you!

Never said they were.

... - last time I checked, America is still a free country.

Really? I suppose it depends upon your definition of free and to what other cultures or nations you compare America against. Freedom is eroding and it is a direct result of a mesmorized and asleep citizenry that the erosion began and continues to this day in an accelerated manner.

... learn how to work within the system so you can't be manipulated and controlled by anybody.

Now this is a statement that I can get behind. You profess to have some knowledge in this area. My challenge to you is to stand up and educate others... but also to continue learning and studying for yourself the ideas presented by myself and others like me. No, not "everyone" is out to get me or you and I never proposed such an idea. But there is a lot underfoot all around us and it behooves us to learn, be aware and be actively engaged.

[Guest]

Now this is a statement that I can get behind. You profess to have some knowledge in this area. My challenge to you is to stand up and educate others...

I do. Every single day. In this here forum, and in these here thread, among others.

I'm a programmer... used to process all the information in a bank, among others. My entire career is built on Information Systems. Yes, I have a lot of knowledge in this area.

[Just_A_Guy]

FWIW - I did have a debit card get hijacked as a result of a gas pump skimmer. Luckily, my wife caught the fraudulent charges while reconciling our statements. Our credit union was quite easy to work with in getting our money back. (About $175 was racked up somewhere in Las Vegas).

Now, I can see the problem if someone isn't carefully checking their account statements at least once a month. But someone who's that cavalier with their record-keeping, is exactly the kind of person who may have real problems disciplining themselves with a credit card.

The arguments in the pro-credit card article already cited, could nearly all be harnessed to argue that credit card transactions are wiser than cash transactions. And it's not likely that you'll ever convince me that debt is better than cash for handling routine expenses.

Edited March 10, 2011 by Just_A_Guy

[pam]

I've also had my debit card caught by a gas pump skimmer. Luckily before any charges were made on it, my bank canceled my card and notified me. I no longer pay at the pump.

[miztrniceguy]

I use my QuikTrip Pumpstart card and pay inside afterward. Safe that way.

[JudoMinja]

I do not have a credit or debit card. I rely on my checkbook or cash for all transactions, and I get by just fine. Yeah, its a bit of an inconvenience when I have to go to my bank to take out cash for gas, since gas stations do not accept checks. But it makes it easier for me to keep track of my own expenses, and I don't have to worry about my card info being stolen or any mistakes in the system causing me to lose money.

[ADoyle90815]

One problem with debit cards is that if the numbers are stolen, one's checking account might be cleaned out before the theft is noticed. Because of this, I either use cash, or write checks with a pen that has wash resistant ink. I also check my account pretty much daily, so if something seemed odd, I'd be able to notify the bank and the police of any fraud before significant damage happened to my account.

Edited March 11, 2011 by ADoyle90815

[talisyn]

There's nothing wrong with questioning the societal system one is living in. It's fascinating to me to see how interconnected our world is. Roman emperors, Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan, I doubt any of them could even conceive of the power the heads of banks and other corps now have. Pointing out how things are and how much power some have, especially when compared to the other 95.9% of the population, is something that should happen every so often.

% is my own invention. However, the vast majority of this world does not have the power to bring down Iceland or Ireland lol.

[Blackmarch]

Well, it seems the bankers are implementing the next stage in exercising financial control over the masses. It appears to be coming in a two-pronged approach:

1) The elimination of the magnetic stripe cards and implementation of embedded chips (already in widespread use throughout the EU)

The future of banking? Credit card that contains a computer will read aloud your balance | Mail Online

2) Caps on debit card transactions, which will drastically limit the financial options for those without credit cards (whether by choice or default due to bad or no credit)

Debit card spending limit? Banks consider a $50 cap - Mar. 10, 2011

Now, I'm no fan of the "bankers" as many of you have noticed from my past posts, and I am again very concerned about worldwide movements happening under our noses. I wonder if anyone is paying attention?

You see, the use of a debit card, in my view is good thing. Many do not have the discipline to utilize a credit card responsibly and the debit card is a great alternative. I use debit cards exclusively and do not even own a credit card... no, not a single one. And I don't want one... period. Debit card transactions are also tied to a checking account which is a little tougher for big brother to monitor without cause and a court order. Credit card transactions on the other hand are wide open to big brother monitoring. Information about the habits of the masses is a key step in the agenda of any organization or groups who ultimately want to influence... or worse yet, control... the masses. Imposing restrictions such as the ones proposed upon debit cards will lead to more people using credit cards and more inconveniences and less freedom imposed upon folks who either don't want or can't obtain a credit card. Imagine having to go to the ATM machine everytime you wanted to make a purchase over $100? Heck, my Costco trips are $600 minimum... and I can't even take $600 out of an ATM in one day with my particular bank. Plus, what if I don't want to walk around with a wad of cash in my pocket?

At any rate, I digress. The point here, is that for those who are looking and paying attention; this is, in my opinion, another step being taken by a small number of people to execute a very old, well thought out and carefully executed secret combination. Very large and influencial things in our world have been changing steadily for the past 100 years or so. The changes are accelerating. People in general are more asleep than ever and freedoms are being lost all around us and only a precious few are doing or saying anything about it. In fact, even here on this forum, I won't be at all surprised to have many comment on my thread something to the effect of:

"Yeah, this will be a little inconvenience, but in the end no big deal."

or...

"Well, gosh, all the money that banks are losing because of the current debit card program structure is what is causing this move... it makes sense... it may not be a 'good' thing, but it's really not part of a secret combination; you're over-reacting bondfan."

I point your attention to the first link to the EU article about talking credit cards. Read it carefully and note especially the statements which allude to the "bankers" "controlling" the "behavior" of "billions" of people. This goes to the heart of my point about secret combinations. The "bankers" really are a small group of elite folks whose names most of us don't even know. There really aren't hundreds of different banks in the world today. The entire banking system worldwide is controlled and manipulated by a literal handful of people... just as is the media worldwide. Don't just take my word for it. Study it out for yourselves.

It's things like this debit card situation that to me, are huge warning signs of what is to come and what is happening right in front of our very eyes. Those with eyes to see and ears to hear will notice it. The others... well I guess just go back to watching the next episode of Survivor... because, after all... all is well in Zion, right?

well i hope individuals get to set their lmit on debit cards... ya credit cards are safer, but they are also a pain to deal with (coming from a lazy procrastinator >.>)

While chips may be "safer" thats because they really aren't used that much here in the US so there isn't much interest in hacking them (yet).

THey are also marginally safer as they have a complexity component that is lacking in magnetic stripes.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I'm glad someone brought this back to the original question -- which for me, is whether there is a movement to control the populace through financial means. I don't know if there is a movement toward controlling the masses by putting them all on computer controlled access to their funds. But I HAVE seen how the financial community has been allowed to wreak havoc with the equity of many Americans, evaporating years of wealth and hard work through predatory lending practices -- and with apparently little punishment. Such is the power their wield.

I wouldn't put it past designing people to want to control all 300 million plus of us. I'm not sure if the credit card/debit card approach is part of it or not, but I think we need to be cautious about the erosion of our freedoms and placing too much control in the hands of the banks, which, in my view, have much greater tendencies toward crookedness due to lacklustre regulation -- compared to what I saw in in Canada the first four decades of my life.

[Blackmarch]

I'm glad someone brought this back to the original question -- which for me, is whether there is a movement to control the populace through financial means. I don't know if there is a movement toward controlling the masses by putting them all on computer controlled access to their funds. But I HAVE seen how the financial community has been allowed to wreak havoc with the equity of many Americans, evaporating years of wealth and hard work through predatory lending practices -- and with apparently little punishment. Such is the power their wield.

I wouldn't put it past designing people to want to control all 300 million plus of us. I'm not sure if the credit card/debit card approach is part of it or not, but I think we need to be cautious about the erosion of our freedoms and placing too much control in the hands of the banks, which, in my view, have much greater tendencies toward crookedness due to lacklustre regulation -- compared to what I saw in in Canada the first four decades of my life.

Banks have that power. If you want to be totallly independant from that invest in buying land, start farming it, pay off the debts in obtaining the land, and then secede from the country you live in, and be prepared to face the armed forces of said country.