Unconsummated Marriage

[Guest Chouchou]

No need to be condescending. Vort is expressing his opinion.

no Vort was presenting it as "fact". and maybe Vort shouldn't make such assumptions about people.

I am not expecting to have sex with my boyfriend. However, I am expecting to have sex with my husband. If I marry him and now he says he doesn't want to have sex, this would be a huge problem for me. If we had talked about it before and agreed to no sex, then that is the expectation.

which is why i asked if they talked about it before they got married.

What gave you the idea that the OP is using "force" on his wife for sex? There is an expectation for sex in marriage. In fact, we are commanded to have sex. If the couple, for their own reasons, decide to not have sex, then that is their business. But, it is obvious that this couple expected to have sex. He wants and needs to express his feelings for his wife with sex. She obviously has issues with it. They may be physical or psychological. Either way, it would be best for her to explore these issues and try to come to an agreement on them.

Just as it isn't fair for him to demand her to have sex with him every night, it isn't right for her to demand he never have sex with her. And by refusing to explore the reasons behind her reluctance for sex is, in essence, demanding that he forgo sex forever.

you're right. I think i shouldn't say things about the brother because of the general feeling i'm getting from some people on this thread. where are we commanded to have sex? we're commanded to multiply and certainly that involves sex, but i don't recall seeing anything that says that we have to have sex beyond that if we don't want to....or are you just talking about procreation?

and yes, i do think that she may need therapy. as i posted in my post after the one you quoted. (in fact, as i stated in my first post on this thread XP ) i put it in another post because i think this quote chain is getting a bit off the original topic. and note that i said they need to meet in the middle even after she gets over the problems she is having. please read all of my post before quoting me. thank you.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Chouchou

[Backroads]

Now to be a little more on topic, i do have two questions for backroads:

did your brother and his wife not talk about sexual expectations at all before they were married?

Nope. It seems they just assumed everything would work out well. I think I do need to bring up a point that seems to have either gotten lost/I didn't clearly express in the beginning: It's not that SIL doesn't want sex, but has knocked it down in importance as their sex lives didn't go according to plan. At the risk of being graphic, brother was "unable to perform" and SIL "seemed very frightened/nervous about sex". My uneducated guess is these two things cycle back viciously on each other.

does she give any indication as to what the problem is or ...well more to the point, does she admit that there is a problem somewhere? i know you said she was mad that she had to go to therapy. and i do think that she should go to therapy, because she should feel comfortable with sex regardless of how often or seldom she chooses to have it

Originally she put the blame on my brother, who says he can't do anything when she is being terrified and when she is experience symptoms of vagismus.

As for the topic straying... as the OP I'm fine with that, I like seeing different theoretical views.

[Guest Chouchou]

Nope. It seems they just assumed everything would work out well. I think I do need to bring up a point that seems to have either gotten lost/I didn't clearly express in the beginning: It's not that SIL doesn't want sex, but has knocked it down in importance as their sex lives didn't go according to plan. At the risk of being graphic, brother was "unable to perform" and SIL "seemed very frightened/nervous about sex". My uneducated guess is these two things cycle back viciously on each other.

Originally she put the blame on my brother, who says he can't do anything when she is being terrified and when she is experience symptoms of vagismus.

As for the topic straying... as the OP I'm fine with that, I like seeing different theoretical views.

does your brother see it as there being a problem with her or there being a problem with both of them? maybe he has some anxiety issues also? therapy as a couple would help them so much i think. and has it been determined that she has vaginismus? cause it sounds like maybe they're both just too scared and its killing the mood. i wonder if it would also help them to get into some sort of stress management class (meditation, deep breathing, tai chi, etc) and try doing the exercises and then attempting sex? or perhaps they are focusing too much on an orgasm/getting it in and not focusing on just having fun with it. that can be a big problem with some people.

and thanks for clarifying a bit more. :)

[Backroads]

does your brother see it as there being a problem with her or there being a problem with both of them? maybe he has some anxiety issues also? therapy as a couple would help them so much i think. and has it been determined that she has vaginismus? cause it sounds like maybe they're both just too scared and its killing the mood. i wonder if it would also help them to get into some sort of stress management class (meditation, deep breathing, tai chi, etc) and try doing the exercises and then attempting sex? or perhaps they are focusing too much on an orgasm/getting it in and not focusing on just having fun with it. that can be a big problem with some people.

and thanks for clarifying a bit more. :)

My brother sees it as both.

[Eltelepi]

I'm new to this forum, and unlike Chouchou, I joined with very different ideas about what posts I would follow. This has intrigued me. I think I can sort of relate to the problem. (I should point out that I have severe bouts of depression which affect me, though) I was not raised LDS, but rather non-descript Christian. Didn't go to any church but was raised with some of the basics like Chastity.

I was rather nervous, even scared when I first got married. If this has become a problem for them, it may seem increasingly frightening. I got over it, but still often lack desire (especially when pregnant or after baby). SIL may simply have frightened herself and is completely embarrassed about this. Thus her upset with counseling and lack of desire to continue.

If this is even part of the problem, maybe they need to rewind and go back to some of the things they did together before marriage (as was said before I do not think a child will help matters). Try to spend more time just being together and doing what they think feels natural. Your brother might want to try other things that help him feel close until she's ready to try again (I'm thinking more like a couple months, rather than a couple years).

I dunno if this is remotely helpful, but that's what I would like in the same position.

[prophetofdoom]

We are sexual beings that have to "bridle" our passions all through out our young single adult life growing up. Finally, when marriage happens.. it is an expected benefit of marriage.. to finally be able to express that sexual part of one's self. I feel very sad for this couple.

[Backroads]

UPDATE

Brother and Sister-in-Law are currently in counseling. We spent last weekend with them and as far as I could tell they were very much in love and affectionate and playful and all that...

[Backroads]

So I'm going to be staying with my SiL next week while my brother is out of town and we're both temporarily single, and I think this would be an excellent time to talk about this situation with her, young lady to young lady, which is something that has not been done in such a term. I've actually been praying about what to say to her, but I'd like to see if there is any specific advice?

[Guest]

I have strong opinions on this subject, so I apologize in advance for my probable teal dear. :)

First, let's talk about "need". A man's need for sex has been touched on here, but it seems like many see that as a neandertholic, base, selfish kind of need. I think it would be helpful and important for your sister and a lot of other women to give their husbands more credit than that. I think men need sex for reasons so much more than the physical. Sex is a way to show a husband acceptance, trust, and of course love. (We're assuming here that this is a safe and overall healthy relationship, other than the intimacy, or that it has good potential to become so). Ladies, our husbands need us to show them that tenderness and acceptance. In rejecting sex on the whole, which she's doing by giving up and being okay with it, she is showing him in a harsh way that she rejects him. Especially considering his past difficulties, that has to be really difficult and hurtful for him. Has his physical issue resolved? If not, I wonder if her blase attitude toward intimacy with him could be perpetuating the problem. He feels rejected, and if/when she's finally willing to give it another shot, he's under enormous pressure to prove to her that sex is worth it and something she'll want to do again.

There are things I wish I had known earlier about intimacy in marriage.

I wish I had known that it was okay to enjoy it. Logically I knew, but getting past that "this morning this was 'bad' but now it's okay" thing was tough. That affected me physically, and it did take a little while to successfully consummate our marriage.

I wish I had known just how unifying the act can be. It really is the fastest means of bringing us back into emotional alignment with each other. There are hormones like oxytocin and endorphins that physically aid that, but I think there is a spiritual component to that, too. Unselfishly submitting to each other and cleaving to each other yields that blessing.

I wish I had known how much of sex is mental for women. It still takes work to put myself in the frame of mind to be all systems go. Even in the midst, I've found myself having to actively keep myself mentally there in the moment with my husband. Sex is not a place to multitask. It's not a time to think about what could have been different that day, what to make for dinner tomorrow, etc. It's worth the work to focus on being there with your sweetheart, in every way.

There's also this natural tendency in women (generalizing here, but I think this is true of most women) to avoid it, put it off, "have a headache". I believe that just as men need to conquer the natural man and dial down their desire at times, women need to conquer the natural woman and meet them halfway. I don't think that's a mistake for a few reasons: opposition in all things, for one. Working together at making the intimate relationship work is good for us. (Also if women in general had the same drive for sex that men in general did, how would anything else ever get done? )

Women hold a lot of power in sex, and we need to be responsible with it and not use it as a means to control or punish.

I know I had more thoughts on this last night when I was reading the thread, but I'm sleep deprived and I can't remember them right now. If I do I'll come back and share. For now I'll just say that even though DH and I have always had great chemistry, our intimate relationship hasn't always come easy. But it has been so worth it to nurture that part of our marriage.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Eowyn
spelling

[Just_A_Guy]

So I'm going to be staying with my SiL next week while my brother is out of town and we're both temporarily single, and I think this would be an excellent time to talk about this situation with her, young lady to young lady, which is something that has not been done in such a term. I've actually been praying about what to say to her, but I'd like to see if there is any specific advice?

Not having thoroughly perused the entire thread, but being a guy generally, my advice would be:

Stay out of it.

There are about ninety nine ways this could blow up in your face, for every way it could work out marginally well.

[Backroads]

Not having thoroughly perused the entire thread, but being a guy generally, my advice would be:

Stay out of it.

There are about ninety nine ways this could blow up in your face, for every way it could work out marginally well.

I see that and that is my fear. It just sucks when, despite counseling, this girl is not getting the idea that sex is normal.

[LDSJewess]

I see that and that is my fear. It just sucks when, despite counseling, this girl is not getting the idea that sex is normal.

I agree it is normal but I also believe it is a very private matter that should be between the couple and their counselor if they choose to seek counseling.

I have trouble understanding why people that are not involved in the intimate relationship, feel it is ok to discuss and interfere in any way. Intimate relationships are scared and private and definitely not something anyone else should involve themselves with short of professional therapists.

[Suzie]

I see that and that is my fear. It just sucks when, despite counseling, this girl is not getting the idea that sex is normal.

Backroads, you seem like a real nice woman but this topic is way too DELICATE for you to discuss with your sister in law or brother plus it's not your place. Heck, they should discuss it between themselves or a professional but definetely not you.

[Guest]

I think it's valuable for a woman in this kind of situation to hear from another woman that intimacy is a normal, healthy, and important part of marriage. That can be done in an appropriate way and without discussing specifics, which is where I think it crosses the line.

[Backroads]

Thanks for the advice. I think I'll stay out of it.

They are seeing a counselor and have thrown ideas off of me and several others, but my brother has now stopped attending church over it because he is unable to look at young families.

[Backroads]

I think it's valuable for a woman in this kind of situation to hear from another woman that intimacy is a normal, healthy, and important part of marriage. That can be done in an appropriate way and without discussing specifics, which is where I think it crosses the line.

I think this is more or less what I would like to do. My SiL grew up in an extremely conservative household with a mother that has told her that sex is wrong.

[shdwlkr]

backroads

when you said, "My SiL grew up in an extremely conservative household with a mother that has told her that sex is wrong. " you answered all of the questions with the problem and it needs to be handled by a qualified counselor with the couple because it is a couple issue.

Your brother stopping his attendance at church is going down the wrong road for the marriage.

[CaptainEm]

I'm of two minds:

I agree that a casual "sex talk" with SIL would be harmless and even helpful. She can see all the counselors she wants but that still won't give her a good real world view of sex which is what she needs. That does sound like what you want to do.

But you seem to realize you would be in way over your head acting as a counselor.

It's sad. Looking over this thread, it looks like they were going to counseling, but with your brother now slipping into inactivity, that doesn't seem to be helping.

I'm so sorry. You might just have to see how emotionally distant you can make yourself from this.

[Backroads]

I'm of two minds:

I agree that a casual "sex talk" with SIL would be harmless and even helpful. She can see all the counselors she wants but that still won't give her a good real world view of sex which is what she needs. That does sound like what you want to do.

But you seem to realize you would be in way over your head acting as a counselor.

It's sad. Looking over this thread, it looks like they were going to counseling, but with your brother now slipping into inactivity, that doesn't seem to be helping.

I'm so sorry. You might just have to see how emotionally distant you can make yourself from this.

You're right. I just hate to see a marriage go down the tubes.

[Martain]

This is sad... very sad.

I would take this to your bishop and explain the situation. Ask for his advice and council as to what you should do and then follow it.

This may be something where you simply have to give the burden to the Lord. There are things you simply have no power over and rather than let it consume you, you may need to simply ask him to take this burden from your shoulder.

Also of need is to ensure that out of all of those councilors mentioned... that one of them be your brother's bishoip.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Martain
corrected a word

[garryw]

150 years ago he could have taken a 2nd wife to have kids (like Abraham). Not today. This seems serious, glad it's not me in his shoes.

[Backroads]

Well, we've spent the week chatting about it here and there... and she was the one to bring it up to me, amazingly enough. I guess that was my answer to praying about it. It seems they are both doing all they can do.

[sk8erchick]

Purchase a copy of the book "And They Were Not Ashamed". I just bought a copy of this book the other day because I had some questions and issues about sex. It has helped me out immensely. The book is available thru Deseret Book online.

The book starts out with the "Good Girl Syndrom", I think this a lot of the issue with your SIL. The author goes into a lot of detail on how girls and boys are conditioned through parents, the church, and society. As I see it, the church needs to start a class for parents on how to appropriately teach their children abstinance but also teach them how sex is ordained of God, how sacred it is in a marriage to bring the husband and wife closer together. IT IS NOT DIRTY AND A SIN!

Edited July 17, 2011 by sk8erchick
edit to add

[Joette]

What has shocked me is that siblings would share intimate details of their marriage.

I Have a very close relationship with all my siblings especially my sisters but we have never ever discussed our sex lives.

That is like betraying your spouse in my mind what goes on behind closed doors-or doesn't is between spouses -perhaps sharing with your Bishop or a parent but only in extreme circumstances.

Would it be the same response if the situation was reversed & the husband was impotent?

[LDSJewess]

What has shocked me is that siblings would share intimate details of their marriage.

I Have a very close relationship with all my siblings especially my sisters but we have never ever discussed our sex lives.

That is like betraying your spouse in my mind what goes on behind closed doors-or doesn't is between spouses -perhaps sharing with your Bishop or a parent but only in extreme circumstances.

Would it be the same response if the situation was reversed & the husband was impotent?

I could not have said this better myself so I will stand at the side lines and applaud you. Perhaps this is indeed a new age that we live in, but what ever happened to "what happens, (or does not happen), behind closed doors, stays behind closed doors."

I will say this though, if my husband ever discussed the personal and private intimacies of our lives with anyone else, I would lose complete trust in him. When two people marry, and even more so when sealed, their personal life is entertwined with each other and is exclusive to outside discussion or interference.