Unconsummated Marriage

[Gwen]

In providing for a contractual relationship, States do not contemplate the necessity of having children. Rather, States expect that a marriage contract is being entered into for the purposes of a real marriage (the interpersonal relationship), not a marriage for financial or convenience reasons only. I did hear recently that some states still have laws that mandate a marriage be consummated in order to be valid and binding. Apparently the purpose being to prevent two friends who have no intent of having a marriage type relationship from entering the contract only for the benefits of the legal classification.

the states don't contemplate anything. they don't care why one gets married. the history of marriage and annulments goes much further back than state authority. marriage used to be only under religious direction, not the law. most marriage laws come from tradition of that history.

my understanding was based off biblical references where if the woman could not have children it was acceptable to put her out and find someone else. children have always been the key to the issue not sex (though sex obviously had to come onto play).

on a quick search and looking over a few sites it seems annulments go back to the middle ages when the catholic church dictated things. seems they did require consummation of the relationship as part of the contract. under the assumption that sex is what "become one" meant. so consummation was required to complete the contract. i'll accept that i was wrong on that one.

to be honest i find the required sex to complete the contract ironic because at the same time it was taught that sex was sinful and should only be done to produce children. sex for any other purpose was dirty and wrong. they pushed that only positions that increased chance of conception and reduced pleasure were acceptable. so i guess they expected you to consummate and then only to conceive, frequent sex still wasn't part of the marriage expectation.

this culture and idea that sex was only for children went far beyond the catholic church and became part of everyday culture if you were catholic or not. if you look you will find similar teachings from our own later day prophets. "sex is only to be had at the risk of having a child" as well as dictating what is ok and not in the bedroom.

our current teachings and views on a couples sexual relationship is relatively new.

[Backroads]

The description of her is very vague, but it does sound a little abusive. She is withholding affection (to say the least) and holds all the cards here. Does not sound like a loving marriage to me.

Sorry, just read the first page of the thread, didn't see the other three until now. But I still think she is at this point being abusive to him.

I'm inclined to think so as well, as are my parents. Perhaps not consciously abusive, but it's happening.

[Backroads]

When I was in Backroad's brother's position, I actually saw a lawyer early on in the marriage -- about about the 1.5 year mark. In the state/province I was in at the time, he said an annulment was possible, although the longer I waited the harder it would be to get one. Also, if we had a child through artificial insemmination, then that would make it much harder -- pretty much impossible, although a divorce could happen.

Also, an anulment was more expensive than a divorce because it meant the lawyer had to appear before a judge. However, the annulment would have gotten me single faster than a divorce. For me, I wanted the anulment label rather than the divorce label for personal reasons.

So, I guess it's a matter of checking with the state laws to see what flavor of the law applies.

However, Backroad's brother may find his wife wanting children eventually. Not only do we have the maternal desires at work in our spouses, in the Church, we have the push and cultural norm that after you're married a while you should have children. It wouldn't surprise me if Backroad's brother's wife starts feeling the pressure from other women or even family. We got it from all sides!!!

I refused to father a children for several years when my wife kept pushing me to have one artificially. I hoped it would motivate my wife to try harder to fix the unconsummated marriage. That made her REALLY mad. Eventually I gave in, and for a long time after we had a child, I regretted that I had done that.

So, he may have to decide what he's going to do if his wife starts demanding a child. It wouldn't surprise me that if anulment is a possiblity in his state, and he has a child artificially, he'll be facing the divorce rather than anulment route.

Also, as I said earlier, I would NOT recommend having a child through artificial insemmination means if the marriage is not consummated. A woman who demands this is not seeing the situation from all necessary perspectives to make a good decision. It is knowingly bringing a child into a situation that houses the Sleeping Divorce Giant.

There may not be a problem now with the stability of the marriage, but if his wife let's the lack of physical intimacy go on forever, or maybe overcomes the problem to have sex once every few months or so, the risk of divorce, single parenthood, strife, child support and infidelity remain. Having a child doesn't always fix the problem. However, there have been situations where having a child -- whether an adopted one, or a natural one, does seem to relax the woman and promote sex. However, it's not guaranteed. Therefore, I think it's irresponsible to bring a child into a marriage where there isn't a minimally satisfying physical relationship for the man.

This could be attributed to reading a highly Freudian book analyzing fairy tales, but I've long thought that part of the beauty of having a child is that it comes after the bond of sex.

She wants kids one day when they are no longer starving college students and she's very maternal, but I don't think she really "gets it" for whatever reason.

[estradling75]

She wants kids one day when they are no longer starving college students and she's very maternal, but I don't think she really "gets it" for whatever reason.

I would have to say that if together the two of them can't work out the problems they are having with their sex life. (or any other major life issues for that matter) Then they are really not ready the stress, burdens, and demands of having kids.

[Backroads]

I would have to say that if together the two of them can't work out the problems they are having with their sex life. (or any other major life issues for that matter) Then they are really not ready the stress, burdens, and demands of having kids.

Yeah, I think that's pretty obvious. One thing at a time...

[estradling75]

Yeah, I think that's pretty obvious. One thing at a time...

But is it obvious to your Sister in Law? From what has been presented that seems unlikely.

[Backroads]

But is it obvious to your Sister in Law? From what has been presented that seems unlikely.

Hence the issue at hand, I'm afraid. Since her mother, as I said, truly sees sex as a chore, it's been up to my mother to have all of the "talks" with her. My mother is quite frustrated it's not becoming clear, which is sad because my mom is pretty much unofficial extended family and stake therapist.

[estradling75]

Hence the issue at hand, I'm afraid. Since her mother, as I said, truly sees sex as a chore, it's been up to my mother to have all of the "talks" with her. My mother is quite frustrated it's not becoming clear, which is sad because my mom is pretty much unofficial extended family and stake therapist.

I see.. so more gentle persuasions have failed... Then I see that your brother really only has two options. Either he waits it out and hopes the the gentle persuasions and time work on on your sister-in-law to bring her around. Or he can start escalating.

Both options have some serious risks, but ultimately it his marriage and his life, and he needs to plot his path and make it happen.

[Guest mormonmusic]

This could be attributed to reading a highly Freudian book analyzing fairy tales, but I've long thought that part of the beauty of having a child is that it comes after the bond of sex.

She wants kids one day when they are no longer starving college students and she's very maternal, but I don't think she really "gets it" for whatever reason.

Is she materialistic? That's another reason some people are OK with no physical intimacy. The lack of physical intimacy buys them time to get the house, the debt paid off, and some cash in the bank before the financial obligations of children hit the fam.

[Suzie]

The description of her is very vague, but it does sound a little abusive. She is withholding affection (to say the least) and holds all the cards here. Does not sound like a loving marriage to me.

Sorry, just read the first page of the thread, didn't see the other three until now. But I still think she is at this point being abusive to him.

I was thinking more about the possibility of her been sexually abused as a child and the husband doesn't know about it.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I was thinking more about the possibility of her been sexually abused as a child and the husband doesn't know about it.

That's another potential cause of vaginismus, although it's normally discussed as a result of rape. And the all-time biggy -- strict religious upbringing is another cause. There is also secondary vaginismus, where the person was fully capable and then some life event related to intimacy brings it on.

[Suzie]

That's another potential cause of vaginismus, although it's normally discussed as a result of rape. And the all-time biggy -- strict religious upbringing is another cause. There is also secondary vaginismus, where the person was fully capable and then some life event related to intimacy brings it on.

Yes, I read the same thing the other day. I think it may be easy for us to judge but we really don't know if this lady may have some serious health issues.

[Jennarator]

Sometimes when people are sexually abused when very young they black it out and don't remember it.(can happen when older, too, but more common when young.) I think that it partly becasue they don't understand what happened to them.

There is the possiblity that is what happened to her.....she maight not even know she was abused and just have the lingering feeling it left her with.

[ryanh]

We see so many of these threads here. The key factor for me in this thread, sbg320's husband, CopenKagen's wife, Milliani's husband, and countless other stories recounted on lds.net is not that there exists and issue, but that the (one-sided) recounting of the situation shows an unwillingness of a party to seek solutions. Abused in the past or not, conscious of it or not, adverse or just apathetic to intimacy, the real issue is the unwillingness to be a partner and helpmeet and improve a situation that is difficult for a spouse.

Serious health issues, psychological issues, or whatever, there usually is little excuse for not seeking help and betterment of a situation. Even if in only very small degrees. If someone chooses to be the “powerholder” and maintain the status quo to the detriment of their spouse, then they are the ones in the wrong IMO. And the past is a moot point, not even worth bringing up except in context of what are they going to do about it. We all have our issues of the past, but they never are an excuse for sitting on one’s hands and letting a spouse suffer.

[MorningStar]

This is so tough. How do you convince someone to approach an issue they're terrified of? Women who struggle with this probably feel like it can't get better and it will just be a life of hurting themselves in order to make their husbands feels good. It must be embarrassing to ask for help, especially if they know the examination will hurt too. I have relatives who refused to go to the doctor for other ailments like hemorrhoids because they were just too humiliated to have a doctor check them out.

To have a painful, embarrassing problem that negatively impacts your marriage would be horrible. So did they try to and it was impossible? Or did she refuse in the first place? And is she taking the pill or anything? (Not that she needs it at the moment) I was on it for a few months and I hurt the whole time. I've also known women who were afraid to resume sex after having babies after they had stitches.

[MrBallroom]

One of the issues here is that in some (regrettably way too many, as in one home like this being one too many) Latter-day Saint homes, children are taught by their parents (usually their Nazi-thinking repressive mothers) that sex is dirty, nasty, evil, shameful, sinful, etc., and all that assorted extremist BS, and is a necessary EVIL solely for the purpose of bringing children into the world…and you wonder why Americans, and especially Latter-day Saint Americans are so hung up about sex!

Do not misunderstand me here: All of us are — or should have been taught — that sexual relations are a healthy and essential part of an eternal relationship such as marriage, and that sex has its proper place and time in a healthy relationship.

As Latter-day Saints, we have been taught that such a relationship has its beginnings in only one place, and that is in a marriage that has its beginnings in the Temple, the House of the Lord.

However, life doesn’t always play itself out according to script. Agency—that glorious gift of agency, choice and free will—can be either a blessing or a curse, depending in large measure on one’s individual level of commitment to the Gospel, as well as whether living in your ward and/or stake is either a blessing or an incarceration, all depending on the quality of your presiding officers.

There are some cases where people cannot marry in the temple for a variety of reasons, and transgressions may well have NOTHING TO DO with the reason. A good case in point is where one of the couple has not yet been a member a year. There are others as well; the details of which are none of our business.

When parents do their job well, and calmly explain to their children the facts of life, using proper names for body parts and functions, then sexuality within marriages can have a healthy basis and start.

As a result, a lot of the pain and frustration that can occur through the inability to consummate a marriage can be avoided. Essential to this also includes a premarital physical for both bride and groom where the doctor can have a candid clinical discussion with the couple, and can privately discuss with the bride only any physical concerns that she may have.

If the bride has physical difficulty with her monthly cycles, or if she has difficulties using feminine hygiene products of the insertion variety, she may have an unusually thick hymen, which the doctor and his patient may feel requires and/or justifies a minor outpatient procedure prior to the wedding in order to help better facilitate the transition to married life. This procedure can be done in the office on a same-day visit.

There may also be psychological fears as well, such as prior sexual abuse, in which the bride had been a victim. These should have been addressed and resolved to the best of their ability prior to the wedding.

With these factors in consideration, and provided the husband is not a closeted homosexual and the bride herself is neither lesbian nor bisexual, if at this point, the bride is still not interested in fully expressing herself after two years — despite all these efforts to address and resolve these issues — then serious consideration must be given to cutting her loose; it is a decision that must not be made lightly; the final decision must be made — one way or the other — only after serious prayer and divine confirmation.

If they have been married two years and the marriage and they are both young, then both have to look at the possibility, at least for him, to be a father somewhere down the road, in a marriage with someone who will not only love him, but who will allow him to fully use and SHARE his procreative powers with her procreative abilities.

Until then, they neither can, nor will be able to live up to the level of their eternal privileges or responsibilities. ***

Edited April 9, 2011 by MrBallroom
Clarificaiton of point being made...

[rufuswhitman]

Simplest advice:

Dump her.

If the situation were reversed, where he decided immediately after marriage that he was never going to have a job, how long would she last? In such a case, we would all be disappointed that he would claim to care for her needs and then utterly neglect them.

He is well within his rights to pursue a relationship that is uplifting and positive (just as she would be). If she does not want to be a part of that, then I would not encourage him to stay with her out of blind duty to a sinking ship.

I don't know the situation well enough to say he ought to do this (or anything else)... only that it is an option, and why I think so.

RW

[a1000tears]

Just a thought - lack of desire could be a hormonal problem. I knew a women who had no desire to have sex, had problems with it. She and her husband tried all the counseling and medical advise, still didn't work. They finally decided to go to a sex therapist who helped them solve their problems. One of the problems they had was a lack of desire or even a disinterest in sex. They found out after numerous tests that her body was not producing any testosterone. Women do produce it but at lower levels than men. However, her body was not producing it at all. They had other issues but just trying to solve one of their issues helped them to eliminate possible theories with their other problems. :)

[shdwlkr]

The first thing that has to be addressed here is does your SIL feel she has any issues relating to the level of sexual contact in her marriage, has she and her husband tried every possible source for a reason for her not being interested?

The second thing is that it is something they have to address not any of us here or you as her SIL, the fact you know is also left me with the question of how did you find out? This is a very personal issue that most couples would not talk about with just anyone.

If your brother wants kids and this marriage will not provide it then there is a very good likely hood there is a divorce coming.

The third issue is could it be because of something your brother has done in the relationship? Not saying he has or has not just putting out questions here. Has your SIL in law done something, has some sexual issue happened in her life that has turned her off from sex?

As others have said it can be physical, mental, medical and also just not something she feels she needs in her life. Could it be it is your brother who has these feelings again I don't know him so just a question.

I am studying this along with many other mental issues at college right now so that is my questions. I can tell you this sex is not required for a marriage to work but it is emotionally one of the best sources of bonding in a relationship. Why because if done right it is one of the few times the partners in a marriage actually are one which the bible tells us we are to become when we marry.

As to the procreation of the next generation that depends on the age at which you marry. Sex for the procreation of the next generation is not the only reason for sex, many see sex as a right, a ritual or what have you in a marriage. What it really is the bonding or cement if you like in the marriage. Does it have to be there no as in some cases because of health issues it can not be there anymore and the marriage goes on just fine because at one time it was there and the bond has been made.

The issue you describe isn't limited to just one sex either can be present in either sex because of many issues and if they wish to change then the right source of help needs to be found and by the same token if the individual with the issues does not see it as an issue then no progress is going to be made and the other partner has to accept this as the way it is going to be or seek a divorce.

[Backroads]

shdwlkr, thanks much!

It seems a lot of this thead as focused on SIL more than Brother, and there is some trouble with Brother being able to "perform"--according to him, because he feels she is too nervous.

[Canuck Mormon]

shdwlkr, thanks much!

It seems a lot of this thead as focused on SIL more than Brother, and there is some trouble with Brother being able to "perform"--according to him, because he feels she is too nervous.

My wife has vaginismus (sp?) and I can relate to your brother. It's an instant mood killer when you see your wife wince in pain. I mean how pleasurable is it to have a ring on that's too small. Sorry for the crudeness.

It's been 4 years since we were married and it has gotten better, but there are times where it is still physically impossible to have intercourse. Now we have found a way around that, but it took time for both me and my wife to be confortable with the situation.

PS - my wife will kill me if she knows that I said this, so shush!!!!

[Guest mormonmusic]

shdwlkr, thanks much!

It seems a lot of this thead as focused on SIL more than Brother, and there is some trouble with Brother being able to "perform"--according to him, because he feels she is too nervous.

There is a psychological component to it, and a physical component to male performance. Canuck Mormon's observation that having your spouse writhe in pain isn't exactly a mood enhancer.

I think we are seeing the dark side of the Law of Chastity -- vaginismus -- very common in the Church.

[sweetiepie]

Do any of you women think that sometimes "vaginismus" is an overused term (excuse?). I can have "vaginismus" when I am not in the mood or we have sex when there is stress going on. There is nothing to help coax the man inside, and if I am not exactly feeling it, it does make it more difficult. When a woman isn't in the mood, or might be a little uspet with her husband, it isn't exactly easy to get "in" there. Sorry for lack of a better term.

However, when those things are not going on, there is not a problem at all with that. Any thoughts ladies?

[shdwlkr]

Funny I just had to work on a paper for college and was looking at the possible reasons for sexual dissatisfaction and there are 6 major headings and they cover a very wide field of issues. Yes when I finish college and get licensed this will be something that I would deal with if clients present it to me. I will be a mental health counselor and we deal with mental and physical issues that affect mental health.

Yes there is that, "honey I am not in the mood and then there is HONEY I AM NOT INTERESTED" But from what has been written here I think there is something else going on and both partners need to be addressing this issue or learn to accept the way things are.

[Idora]

In my opinion, psychological issues seems to trump hormonal or possibly physical issues. I have hormonal issues (currently being treated, but it goes back and forth) and my drive isn't exactly where it should be, but I make love to my husband because he's my husband and I love him to death. I understand he's a man with needs and I made a promise to him to give myself to him, regardless of my mood or hormones. The fact she just won't do it saddens me and leads me to believe it's psychological whether it's immaturity, a strict upbringing, or an abusive past. She need to speak to somebody, and so does he. It's important an appointment is made regardless of how shameful or embarrassed they may feel. The pride needs to be pushed aside. I'm positive doctors aren't new to this.

Without a healthy sexual marriage, the possibility of it falling apart increases and the temptation to cheat (I'm not saying he'll do that) also increases.