Unconsummated Marriage

[Backroads]

This has been something that has been on my mind lately. I request that everyone on this site not go around in the real world saying "this gal on the internet has a brother..."

My little brother and his wife have been married for two years. Their marriage is, as the subject suggests, technically unconsummated. They love each other, but this is a HUGE struggle in their marriage and I think the pain got even worse after I was married.

I am one of the few people privy to this (which is why I stress the internet anonymity here).

They have been to all sorts of counselors, but my SIL is no longer interested. In fact, she's pretty much okay with the situation. Meanwhile, my brother feels like he merely has a nice roommate.

DOing internet research, I've found this is a lot more common than anyone would like to admit and the trouble is largely no one wants to admit it.

So... any advice?

[applepansy]

Has she seen her Gynecologist? Counseling won't help if there is a medical issue that needs to be resolved.

This thread might be helpful to read through: http://www.lds.net/forums/marriage-relationship-advice/35919-marrital-issues.html

Edited April 7, 2011 by applepansy
added link

[Maureen]

I would guess that there are psychological and physical reasons why your SIL has no sex drive. She should see a doctor.

M.

[estradling75]

That is not good.

I am going to say something that might not be very popular, but for me no sex would ultimately be a deal breaker especially this early in the Marriage.

Don't get me wrong I fully realize that there could be psychological and physical reason for the Sister-in-Laws actions. And if they are being worked and addressed and effort is being made to fix it then I would advise him to stay.

But if the Sister-in-Law has given up, and that glimmer of hope dies, then I would not be at all surprised to see the marriage fail.

[Suzie]

This has been something that has been on my mind lately. I request that everyone on this site not go around in the real world saying "this gal on the internet has a brother..."

My little brother and his wife have been married for two years. Their marriage is, as the subject suggests, technically unconsummated. They love each other, but this is a HUGE struggle in their marriage and I think the pain got even worse after I was married.

I am one of the few people privy to this (which is why I stress the internet anonymity here).

They have been to all sorts of counselors, but my SIL is no longer interested. In fact, she's pretty much okay with the situation. Meanwhile, my brother feels like he merely has a nice roommate.

DOing internet research, I've found this is a lot more common than anyone would like to admit and the trouble is largely no one wants to admit it.

So... any advice?

Is it psychological or physical? She complains of pain or is she just not interested? Is it possible that she has been abused and your brother doesn't know?

[Faded]

From a Latter Day Saint perspective, the day you got married the Law of Chastity switches from "thou shalt not" to "thou shalt." So not only is it unhealthy, it stands in direct defiance of God's commandments. The command to "be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth" is still in effect for all married couples.

It may not help your sister in law to just tell her that, I'm just establishing that it most certainly isn't okay with the Lord. Getting her to come around? Impossible to say until you find the underlying cause. Sexual abuse? Just over-zealously keeping the law of chastity? Physical issues? The solution depends on the cause of course.

[marshac]

Perhaps she's simply asexual?

Asexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Jennarator]

Sounds like there could be a number of reasons, but if they have seen counslers, then she either won't talk about it, or the reason is in her sub-countious (sp?).

The problem is that she doesn't even want to fix it. Sure, see a doctor or something, but if she is happy with the way things are, then, she won't want ot see the doctor, as she feels fine with things and see no reason. Does she even want children? Does she plan to adopt?

Sad and sorry to say this, but if it were me, the deal might be off. Sounds like they already tried to work out the problem by seeing the counslors.

[Gwen]

telling her she is sinning by not having sex won't help. having sex in marriage (depending on the circumstances) can be just as, if not more, "sinful" as not having sex in marriage.

i can not believe sex is a commandment. one can claim having children is and yes you have to have sex for that but that's technically only one time every two yrs or more. lol my point is that sex in and of itself isn't a commandment. yes it's usually seen as part of a healthy relationship, yes it's allowed and encouraged in marriage, yes it's no longer a sin, yes it's reserved only for marriage. all of those things do not make it required or a commandment for marriage.

if the couple have found a situation that fits for them, they are both happy, and it doesn't include regular sex i can't believe god will punish them as having sinned for not having sex. they had a happy marriage, treated each other according to the gospel (respect, love, compassion, etc), followed the spirit on having kids... so what if they didn't have sex on a "regular basis". god would punish them?

the problem here is they are not both happy with the situation. but trying to guilt her into things because she is "sinning" is asinine. the more appropriate approach, in my opinion, is to get her to consider reading books like "his needs her needs". get her to understand that he isn't happy in their marriage, they have issues they need to work on. reading such books as "his needs her needs" will help to sort out those issues. one of the issues the book addresses is the vital importance of sexual interaction for many ppl (men particularly). it gives them the chance to discuss the subject in a less hostile setting and him to express his needs/desires. maybe it will get her to look at the situation differently. she may be willing to keep looking for an answer out of love for her husband even if she does not need it. it gives a chance to discuss things on an equal exchange of need evaluation and requesting change without putting her on the hot seat as the root of the problem in the marriage.

there are other books and things that could help their marriage as well, but i'm not sure i know of any that address the aspect of sex in marriage quite as directly. which i assume is his end goal at the moment.

[beefche]

I wonder if she understands how serious this is. Does she realize that she may lose her marriage over this if she doesn't diligently try to resolve this issue--whether psychological or medical?

I will say as a SIL, Backroads, you probably don't have much influence here. All you can do is be a support and encourage both of them to continually seek help.

[FunkyTown]

Do we actually know her stated reasons for not having consummated the marriage for two years?

'Cause the hubby could push for an annulment of the wedding based on the idea that sex is an implied part of marriage.

However, we're basically grasping at straws without knowing her reasons.

[beefche]

having sex in marriage (depending on the circumstances) can be just as, if not more, "sinful" as not having sex in marriage.

How is having sex in marriage more of a sin?

[Gatekeeper]

and I think the pain got even worse after I was married.

Hi Backroads. Why did the pain get even worse after you married? By this reason it appears as if you can identify with the pleasure of intimacy according to your very own relationship, which is, of course, common to feel this way; maybe this is why you are so troubled for them. You also mention that your brother views his marriage as a roomating situation, and to me this appears to be a temporary acceptance and a proper perspective for him to the matter. They are obviously working on their dilema, and even though this matter seems unacceptable to you, and you are sincere, which is natural because time has lingered for two years, it is not impossible for things to become normal at some point. You might just keep lending an ear of support for your brother. Stressing over the matter is not going to help anyone, as you can already determine to be true. Prayers to you and your family by me.

[ryanh]

I've found this is a lot more common than anyone would like to admit and the trouble is largely no one wants to admit it.

Well, if you listen to many of the sexperts on this forum, it must be something that occurred outside the bedroom that is impacting their ability to relate in bed. It must be a "symptom" of something else, not a origin of difficulty.

I can't imagine there is much you can do to help resolve it. It really is between them. And, I suspect the issue will take care of itself naturally. Most likley, your brother will eventually reach a breaking point, a "critical mass" as David Schnarch puts it, and something with have to change. The only thing I can think of is to suggest to your brother to not wait until the relationship is too far poisoned to be salvageable before he demands change. There is a risk that he white knuckles it until the point he is fed up and leaves. If he can direct that energy into change that is positive rather than divorce, that would be helpful.

Backroads, are you interested in reading some of David Schnarch's book that describes this cycle of one partner reaching critical mass and initiating change? I think the book would be good for you and your brother, even if a rather explicit and forward read. I have some chapters scanned and in .pdf if you are interested.

[estradling75]

An Unconsummated Marriage is considered legal grounds to getting an annulment. Which legally puts in in the same category as fraud, and being unable to legally enter into a marriage contract. So while not a commandment there is a very strong expectation. And it is considered the reasonable default assumption of what will happen and grounds for saying the marriage never really existed if it doesn't.

Clearly if before the marriage it was discussed and no sex was agreed to then none of the above applies. But given the opening post I have my doubts that happened. So to me the Brother has a completely reasonable expectation and need. Clearly there are issues (the exact nature of which is unknown) And it appears that the Brother was supportive and willing to work through the problem and that she has given up.

Of course that is one side of the story... Maybe the brother wasn't supportive as assumed. This wouldn't necessary something Backroads would know, but we go with what we have to work with. And at this point it is that the Brother is unhappy living with a roommate instead of a wife. It is serious, but only the Brother can make the call if he wants to live that way, and/or if there is still hope that something can be worked to meet both their needs.

Perhaps the brother need to be more explicit to is wife that is not working... (Although I would hope he had already done so if its reached this point)

[Guest mormonmusic]

Backroads -- I was in your brother’s situation for about a decade. I agree with Funkytown that we don't know the nature of the problem, so it shard to give advice. But I can give a few ideas, some of which are generally applicable, others which are a bit specific to vaginismus.

1. If his wife is motivated and willing, and he loves her, then he needs to help her all he can and on her own terms.

2. If he feels frustrated with her, he should try to replace that frustration with compassion, as you would with anyone who has a disorder. Being frustrated with her can make sex an even thornier issue than it is now for her. Compassion and love may encourage his wife to be more willing to solve the problem. I don’t know if frustration is a problem for him, but it was a problem for me at first, so I mention it.

3. Also, he could consider investing in the relationship by meeting her emotional needs as this can help increase sex drive – even if he’s already doing a good job. Be a really, really good, supportive husband in all aspects of their marriage and get involved with helping her with whatever therapy methods they try, to the extent his wife wants his help. This can trigger more love that might lead to greater willingness from his wife. Try reading the stuff at Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice and learning what his wife’s needs are, and do all he can to meet them to sustain love and desire.

4. To sustain him through this period of trying, he might search for motivating thoughts that keep him strong.

a) Whenever I felt like going elsewhere for sex, I reflected on the respect God must have for the self-control I was showing. This thought motivated me. I drew on it as a source of self-esteem for what I was doing to be faithful in the eyes of God. As the years grew longer, and I had a clear track record behind me, I relied more and more heavily on these kinds of thoughts.

b) I also identified with great people in history who exercised great self-control like Ghandi. This really did motivate me at times to think I was living on the same plane as these great people. Your brother might consider reflecting on thoughts like these to strengthen him, or consciously searching for other motivating thoughts for him personally.

c) If he’s really trying, you, Backroads, might consider sharing the respect you have for him, as this might motivate him – you know his personality, and the level of disclosure he’s comfortable with, but when my non-member Dad told me how much he respected me for trying for so long, this helped me at times.

4. If the problem is vaginismus, they can consider different therapies if his wife is willing. We tried many, but only one was effective for us, however, some of these might work for them depending on the problem.

Counselling was ineffective across two counsellors, including LDS Social Services, but might help with their specific problem. We tried a hymenectomy – at the hands of a doctor who specialized in these kinds of –ectomies and psychological counselling at the same time. There is a women’s therapy center at Women's Therapy Center - vaginismus - symptoms, diagnosis, treatment which wanted $10,000 to solve the problem over a one or two week period in 1997. We didn’t go that route as there was no guarantee it would work, and they didn’t have statistics to share either. I thought if I had to spend $10,000 and it didn’t work that would hurt our relationship even further, so we didn’t pay the money. But others have done it with success.

We even went through artificial insemination because our gynecologist said that 80% of the vaginismus problems she experienced were cured with a vaginal birth. But that didn’t work because my wife had a C-section and I just ended up relegating myself to the role of Virgin Father and Moses Shut Out Of The Promised Land simultaneously. Looking back, I can’t believe how irresponsible I was to gamble the life of a child on fixing the problem when our marriage had this instability in it, so I don’ t recommend that one.

What worked for us were progressively larger and larger dilators our gynecologist gave my wife. They are made of a flexible latex material, and my wife had to use them regularly, progressing through the sizes. Eventually this fixed the problem, although it took her years and years because she didn’t work at it. Which leads me to my next point.

5. If his wife won’t put the necessary effort into solving the problem with him, and he’s tried everything, he could rely on real intent and the convincing power of clean living to encourage God to intervene. When I realized that my wife was unwilling to solve the problem, and I was at risk for breaking the law of chastity, I prayed in this manner. I first told God if things didn’t change, I was leaving as my temple covenants were in jeopardy – I’d met someone and although I’d rejected her (boy did that hurt!!!), I realized that I could have a much happier marriage elsewhere. Plus the drive was getting uncontrollable.

I also reminded Him about all the promises of blessings for clean living, He’s made, and my belief that He always keeps his promises. I pointed to all the different ways I’d tried to live the gospel – serving a mission, etcetera, and also, the impact on my daughter if I got a divorce. Also, that I’d done everything I felt I could for a decade – that it was my wife’s motivation that needed fixing. I basically said if things didn’t change within a reasonable time, maybe a few weeks, I WAS GOING TO LEAVE. And I meant it.

Two weeks later, she overcame the problem. The story is a bit miraculous, and to this day I believe it was God’s intervention, because she knew nothing about my real intent to leave.

6. Your brother should also consider really self-monitoring to determine when he’s at risk of breaking the law of chastity. If he gets overcome with love for another person due to the gaping hole in his relationship at home, and feels his covenants are definitely at risk, and he’s done all he can, and God won’t intervene, it’s time to leave and start over.

I’m not talking about a fleeting desire to go elsewhere, I’m talking about a huge drive to have a relationship with another woman. For me it was nearly uncontrollable, powerful, driving, and persistent over a long period of time. I didn’t act on it, and even rejected this other woman’s advances to try to take her out of the equation (Did I say that really hurt???). At that point, I knew I had to take measures to make the situation unlock, or I’d be up in front of a Stake Disciplinary Council eventually. The drive to go elswhere for love (emotional and physical) was just too powerful and sustained.

I feel it’s a valid reason to leave the relationship after years and years and years of trying with an unwilling partner. Your relationship with God comes first. The Church teaches that. If after superhuman effort on your part for years, your wife is posing a threat to your covenants due to her stubborness, then it’s time to move on. I’m not willing to sacrifice my relationship with God for my wife. That’s where I draw the line.

Edited April 7, 2011 by mormonmusic

[Backroads]

Thanks, all.

Yeah, it's hard because as the sister, there really isn't a heck of a lot I can do but give advice when asked and support. It is indeed between them, and I truly am allowing that. I guess it's something I"ve mostly thrown up my hands about. But... this is my favorite brother if I'm allowed to play favorites and my SIL is a close friend. It sucks to see them suffering.

Here's what I do know:Originally, Brother had difficulties. He says it's because he felt that SIL was nervous of sex, and no good guy is going to pressure a girl who is fearful.

SIL, therefore, puts all blame on Brother.

Doctors have told Brother there is nothing wrong with him--it's just hard when the girl isn't willing.

SIL has never been able to use tampons (this makes me think something is physically wrong with her)

When Brother was 14ish, he had issues with pornography. As far as I am aware, it was mainly out of curiosity and was resolved.

SIL's mother views sex has a chore (has actually told us this) and SIL is the only girl in her family.

Brother suffers from ADHD, clinical depression, and Tourrettes (welcome to my family). He is perfectly fine when on his medications.

Brother said "It's harder now because Backroads and her husband are happy".

My perspective (not necessarily fact)

SIL, who is quite young and acts even younger, is extremely immature about sex, perhaps suffers from the "Good Girl" syndrome as well as something physical.

Brother feels indebted to girl who stood beside him during a serious bout of depression before they were engaged. Doesn't want to make her feel bad.

While SIL may also recognize this is a big problem, doesn't want to deal with it right now and wants to continue playing house and ignore it.

[Backroads]

Backroads, are you interested in reading some of David Schnarch's book that describes this cycle of one partner reaching critical mass and initiating change? I think the book would be good for you and your brother, even if a rather explicit and forward read. I have some chapters scanned and in .pdf if you are interested.

THat would be great.

[ryanh]

PM sent.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Backroads -- sounds like it could be vaginismus to me. My wife had the same problem with tampons. One cause of vaginismus is strict religious upbringing, and that makes it more common in the Church, I've been told by one of the LDS Social Services counselors we met with.

What bothers me is SIL's lack of desire...I feel for your brother. I hope he can stay strong.

I think being willing to listen to him is important, even though you can't do anything and it might seem awkward if your relationship normally doesn't go into discussing physical intimacy. However, you might have to be careful regarding your sister in law's perceptions of your role as sounding board. My wife felt really bad around my family when she found out they knew about our problem after I gave in and told them why we didn't have children. Looking back, I wish I hadn've only shared the problem with my wife's permission....

[Gwen]

How is having sex in marriage more of a sin?

notice i said

"having sex in marriage (depending on the circumstances) can be just as, if not more, "sinful" as not having sex in marriage."

sex in marriage in and of itself is usually a good thing.

when you tell an immature couple that is under a lot of stress and tension that sex is a commandment that he has a right to have sex with her and she has a duty to put out.... can you really not see how that could turn ugly and fast?

when sex isn't with mutual love and respect it's not of god. a spouse putting out for the sake of putting out isn't good. i'm not talking about someone that compromises and gives, out of love, a "gift" to their spouse. i'm talking about someone that does it for the sake of "not sinning" with resentment or because she doesn't feel she has the right to say no. when it gets forceful, emotionally or physically, against the desires of one partner that isn't of god. marriage doesn't make that kind of sex ok.

given an otherwise happy marriage other than sex i can't imagine a loving god punishing the couple that chose no sex while rewarding the couple that had obligated sex.

sex isn't a commandment. loving each other. emotional connection. family. respect. compassion. those are commandments. when married and you have those things it typically leads to sex. that's seen as a good thing. but the act of frequent sex isn't required for those things.

Edited April 7, 2011 by Gwen

[Gwen]

would an unconsummated marriage be grounds for a sealing cancellation as well?

the reason unconsummated marriages have grounds for annulment (as i've always understood it) was that it prevented children. children are an expectation of marriage not sex.

could someone apply for annulment if after marriage if they discovered their spouse could not have kids and they had planned to have kids before the wedding? is that too "fraud"? a contract that can't be fulfilled?

if a man wants to divorce over something like this then that is his decision and i can't say if he's right or wrong. i don't think he ought to try to pretend the marriage never happened. filing for an annulment is going overboard. man up and call it what it is.

[sweetiepie]

The description of her is very vague, but it does sound a little abusive. She is withholding affection (to say the least) and holds all the cards here. Does not sound like a loving marriage to me.

Sorry, just read the first page of the thread, didn't see the other three until now. But I still think she is at this point being abusive to him.

Edited April 8, 2011 by sweetiepie

[ryanh]

the reason unconsummated marriages have grounds for annulment (as i've always understood it) was that it prevented children. children are an expectation of marriage not sex.

In providing for a contractual relationship, States do not contemplate the necessity of having children. Rather, States expect that a marriage contract is being entered into for the purposes of a real marriage (the interpersonal relationship), not a marriage for financial or convenience reasons only. I did hear recently that some states still have laws that mandate a marriage be consummated in order to be valid and binding. Apparently the purpose being to prevent two friends who have no intent of having a marriage type relationship from entering the contract only for the benefits of the legal classification.

[Guest mormonmusic]

When I was in Backroad's brother's position, I actually saw a lawyer early on in the marriage -- about about the 1.5 year mark. In the state/province I was in at the time, he said an annulment was possible, although the longer I waited the harder it would be to get one. Also, if we had a child through artificial insemmination, then that would make it much harder -- pretty much impossible, although a divorce could happen.

Also, an anulment was more expensive than a divorce because it meant the lawyer had to appear before a judge. However, the annulment would have gotten me single faster than a divorce. For me, I wanted the anulment label rather than the divorce label for personal reasons.

So, I guess it's a matter of checking with the state laws to see what flavor of the law applies.

However, Backroad's brother may find his wife wanting children eventually. Not only do we have the maternal desires at work in our spouses, in the Church, we have the push and cultural norm that after you're married a while you should have children. It wouldn't surprise me if Backroad's brother's wife starts feeling the pressure from other women or even family. We got it from all sides!!!

I refused to father a children for several years when my wife kept pushing me to have one artificially. I hoped it would motivate my wife to try harder to fix the unconsummated marriage. That made her REALLY mad. Eventually I gave in, and for a long time after we had a child, I regretted that I had done that.

So, he may have to decide what he's going to do if his wife starts demanding a child. It wouldn't surprise me that if anulment is a possiblity in his state, and he has a child artificially, he'll be facing the divorce rather than anulment route.

Also, as I said earlier, I would NOT recommend having a child through artificial insemmination means if the marriage is not consummated. A woman who demands this is not seeing the situation from all necessary perspectives to make a good decision. It is knowingly bringing a child into a situation that houses the Sleeping Divorce Giant.

There may not be a problem now with the stability of the marriage, but if his wife let's the lack of physical intimacy go on forever, or maybe overcomes the problem to have sex once every few months or so, the risk of divorce, single parenthood, strife, child support and infidelity remain. Having a child doesn't always fix the problem. However, there have been situations where having a child -- whether an adopted one, or a natural one, does seem to relax the woman and promote sex. However, it's not guaranteed. Therefore, I think it's irresponsible to bring a child into a marriage where there isn't a minimally satisfying physical relationship for the man.

Edited April 8, 2011 by mormonmusic