The prophet knows when the second comming will happen?

[tubaloth]

Gospel Doctrine Class, talking about signs of the Time. We had a substitute teacher. She even said at the first of the class that she got so into the subject that she went out and bought a couple of other books about the signs of the time.

I end up reading the parable of the fig tree, which ends with this verse.

40But of that day, and hour, no one knowth; no, not the angels of God in heaven, but my Father only.

The teacher then opens up one of the books she bought and starts talking about this authors take on it.

First the author makes some point that Christ was only talking about His time. He wasn’t talking about all time. Then the commentary brings in this verse.

7Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he reveleth his secrets unto his servants the prophets.

Pretty much trying to fit both verses together, the commentator says that the verse in Matthew is more talking about world. That world won’t know when the second coming is happening, but those in the church will. (I think I have heard that taught before). The author then takes it one step farther in saying that the Prophet will know when the second coming is going to happen, because God tells his prophets what is going to happen (something like that).

Thoughts?

[pam]

I think I'd go with the scripture.

[Guest saintish]

I think it is resonable to assume that once the Father gives the tumbs up for the second coming the prophet will be the first (on earth) to know. but he wont know until the Father gives the tumbs up and the Son tells the Prophet.

[rameumptom]

Once, David O. McKay was taking questions by the press. One asked him if he knew where the lost tribes are. Pres McKay answered, "yes, they are lost." This man wasn't satisfied and said, "wait, you are the prophet. Why don't you know where they are?" Pres McKay answered, "if I knew where they are, they wouldn't be lost."

Prophets do not know everything. They work through things just like the rest of us, only on a higher level. Unless there was a reason for the Prophet to know the day and time, the Lord isn't going to tell him.

That said, the scriptures do tell us that we have signs of the times, which tell us when the time is near. I think the prophets are noticing that we are in the last days. They just do not know how close it is.

[RipplecutBuddha]

I think it's also significant to point out that Even Joseph Smith refused to commit to a specific time for the second coming. Considering all the revelations he claimed to have recieved (claims I believe, btw) I find it interesting that this one very central issue to Christianity is not one he ever claimed to have an answer for.

The closest he came was to say it would not occur as early as a certain date. It seems the specific day and time for Christ's second coming was not something even Joseph Smith needed to know, and that should say something, considering how significant his ministry was. It just doesn't look like it needs to be known yet.

[Traveler]

Gospel Doctrine Class, talking about signs of the Time. We had a substitute teacher. She even said at the first of the class that she got so into the subject that she went out and bought a couple of other books about the signs of the time.

I end up reading the parable of the fig tree, which ends with this verse.

40But of that day, and hour, no one knowth; no, not the angels of God in heaven, but my Father only.

The teacher then opens up one of the books she bought and starts talking about this authors take on it.

First the author makes some point that Christ was only talking about His time. He wasn’t talking about all time. Then the commentary brings in this verse.

7Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he reveleth his secrets unto his servants the prophets.

Pretty much trying to fit both verses together, the commentator says that the verse in Matthew is more talking about world. That world won’t know when the second coming is happening, but those in the church will. (I think I have heard that taught before). The author then takes it one step farther in saying that the Prophet will know when the second coming is going to happen, because God tells his prophets what is going to happen (something like that).

Thoughts?

It is very easy to read and study scripture and come up with answers that are wrong. This has been going on forever. It is my understanding that scriptures are to testify of Christ. When we lose this perspective we run into problems; especially when we assume things out of context.

Here are some of my thoughts: There would be no reason for G-d to offer signs concerning the last days unless such signs would identify the “Last Days”. Signs are not to convince anyone of anything - the purposes of signs are twofold:

First is to testify of Christ to the saints

Second is to warn the wicked.

In a conversation with a Rabbi I was told that most all Christians do not understand Jewish traditions and misinterpreted scripture because of their lack of understanding. His example to me was Matthew 24:36. He explained that ancient Israel began each year on the first day of the week with a great celebration and feast. But the New Year had signs to determine when the day (Sun rise in the east) would be.

The day of the feast would be the first Sunday following the first new moon following the vernal equinox. This would be determined by two witnesses (prophets) that were qualified to observe the new moon and the equinox. These two prophets would testify before a judge (high Priest) and when it was time (night before) a fire would be lit on a hill and the next day the New Year and feast would begin.

When people would ask when the New Year and feast would begin the common saying was “No man knows”. But if the weather had been stormy and clouds blocked the Sun and moon the standard response was “No man knows - not even the angels of heaven but G-d only knows.”

The point being is that those that are familiar with the sun and the moon and the progressions and phases - they will have a very good idea - but those that do not know. The time could pass and they would not understand or be aware of what had happened - which is a very different meaning.

The Traveler

[mordorbund]

I've mentioned before that Elder McConkie was of the opinion that the Son DOES know the day and the hour. (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary vol 1 pg 667). The JST reads

But of that day and hour no one knoweth; no, not the angels of God in heaven, but my Father only.

Elder McConkie comments, "[Neither the Son] These words are deleted from the Inspired Version; Jesus, of course, since he konws all things, knows the exact time of his return."

I don't think it's beyond the pale to assume that when Christ comes again, he will first notify his prophet like he did with Nephi ("this night come I into the world").

[rameumptom]

Personally, as a mortal being, I do not believe Jesus knew the day or time of his coming. The Inspired Version still is not a perfect scripture, but an inspired one.

That said, I do not have a problem with the Lord announcing His coming to the prophet on the day before. I do have a problem with the concept that the prophet already knows that day.

[richlittell]

The prophet is on a "need to know" basis. If he needs to know, he will be informed at that time.

[mordorbund]

Personally, as a mortal being, I do not believe Jesus knew the day or time of his coming. The Inspired Version still is not a perfect scripture, but an inspired one.

That said, I do not have a problem with the Lord announcing His coming to the prophet on the day before. I do have a problem with the concept that the prophet already knows that day.

I haven't read any posts suggesting that the current Prophet (or previous Prophets for that matter) know the day or the hour. I saw it more as a question of whether Christ would let the Prophet know before He came.

Of those LDS that interpret Matthew 24 to say the no man will ever know the day or hour (until after it happened), I wonder how many would still hold to that if the Prophet announced a day.

[mnn727]

40But of that day, and hour, no one knowth; no, not the angels of God in heaven, but my Father only

What part of "no one knowth" does the sub have a problem understanding?

Stick with doctrine in class and leave speculation on the internet where it belongs

I hate people teaching their opinions in class, stick to the lesson.

From the front of the Gospel Principles Manual

Teach the Doctrine

Before you teach from a chapter, study it thoroughly to be sure you understand the doctrine. Also study the additional scriptures listed at the end of the chapter. You will teach with greater sincerity and power when the teachings in the chapter have influenced you personally. Never speculate about Church doctrine. Teach only what is supported by the scriptures, the words of latter-day prophets and apostles, and the Holy Spirit (see D&C 42:12–14; 52:9).

If you have been called to teach a quorum or class using this book, do not substitute outside materials, however interesting they may be. Stay true to the scriptures and the words in the book. As appropriate, use personal experiences and articles from Church magazines to supplement the lessons.

Edited June 7, 2011 by mnn727

[prophetofdoom]

The Book of Mormon provides a template for the world we live in now. There is no indication that anyone knew the date when Christ was going to visit the Americas. I do not believe the prophet will be told any date of the second coming. He might be told about various signs preceding the Second Coming, but, that is it. The scriptures are absolutely clear that only the Father knows.

[shdwlkr]

Christ return is governed more by the wickedness of the people on earth than by anything else. Look at the signs we are told to watch for what one of them is positive not one.

As to the prophet knowing if Christ and God want him to know they will let him know at the time and place they chose to let him know.

Look at this way do you think the prophet would like to know say that 12/21/2012 is the date but he can tell no one not his counselors, not the quorum of seventy not the members, not his wife no one. Would a loving Savior and God put that kind of pressure on one of their prophets with all the other burdens they are asked to bare?

I like the idea that we the people of the earth govern the day of his return by our actions as a total people on this earth.

If you don't like that then use the Myain date of 12/21/2012 sounds good doesn't it or the solar flair date when there is going to be a super flair that is going to destroy all communications on earth or the one that says the volcanoes on the earth are going to cover the earth in lava and ash or the one that the seas will move all the continents together or the one that the rapture is coming and will take all the faithful home just before the earth is destroyed. You pick

I like he will return when it is his time to return and not before

Edited June 8, 2011 by shdwlkr

[estradling75]

His second coming could be done in very much the way his birth was handled in the Book of Mormon. Lots of signs lots of predictions and plans. Then he tells his prophet that tomorrow is the day. To me that would easily fulfill both scriptures.

[mrmarklin]

This just goes to show that one can parse and over-analyze anything......................:-)

[Traveler]

What part of "no one knowth" does the sub have a problem understanding?

Stick with doctrine in class and leave speculation on the internet where it belongs

I hate people teaching their opinions in class, stick to the lesson.

From the front of the Gospel Principles Manual

I believe it is how a point is presented - I see nothing wrong with teachers or students offering their opinions on subjects. But with the idea that there is a difference between opinions and testimonies.

For example - I see nothing wrong with someone in class saying something like:

It is my opinion that the brothern may not know the hour or the day but I think is it possible they will have a good idea as to the month and year.

The Traveler

[spamlds]

Hi everyone. Here's are a couple of things to keep in mind about the Second Coming. First, look at the Book of Mormon as our template. Elder Jensen of the Presidency of the Seventy recently visited our area. He said to consider the chapters from Mosiah 25--when the Nephite Church was founded--to 3 Nephi 11--when the Savior appeared as the pattern.

We see the same conditions today, churches that parallel the Nehors and anti-Christs. We see Gadianton robbers active in the world. We will see a collapse of civil governments and a gathering into families and "tribes." There will be great destructions and disasters and the Lord will come.

Note that the prophets in the Book of Mormon were given knowledge of key events, but not the exact day or hour. For example, Samuel the Lamanite gave warning of the Lord's birth five years out and gave signs to watch for. Nephi received a revelation that told the sign would be given on the eve of the Lord's birth. The First Coming to the Nephites is a "type and shadow" of the Second Coming, the Millennial reign, and the falling away that happens at the end of the Millennium when Satan will be loosed from his prison one last time.

The second thing to keep in mind is that the Second Coming consists of several appearances, some of which will involve some planning. The order is unknown of these appearances, but the Lord will appear to the Prophet, to the saints in the Rocky Mountains, to the gathering at Adam-ondi-Ahman, and to the Jews in Israel at the Mount of Olives. After those appearances, there will be the final, global appearing that will go from east to west like lightning and "all flesh shall see him together" on that day.

Obviously, there will need to be some planning before the gathering at AoA and perhaps the other events as well. We may not know the day or the hour, but we will know when it is close and many of us may take part in one of these preparatory appearances of the Lord.