Honesty - extreme couponing

[Seminarysnoozer]

The other day I was watching a show on ‘extreme couponing’ and I was thinking about trying to do this myself. I was held back, though, with the idea that the reason manufacturers put out these coupons is to advertise their product with the hope of selling more. Knowing that is the intention of the coupons, if I go out, like these ‘extreme couponers’ and get $3,000 worth of groceries and products for $45 just because I can, is that really honest?

13th article of faith; “We believe in being honest ….” If I take 150 boxes of pasta and store it in the basement for “free” using coupons, I have taken away that company’s ability to make a profit on those boxes. As small as that may seem in the big picture for that company, that is still taking away that amount of profit. The production of that box of pasta is paid for, somewhere, in terms of the employees wage, shipping, cost of materials or raw food etc., it isn’t really “free”. Taking one or two with a coupon to see if it is something that you might like to purchase on a regular basis, which I think is the intention of the company that puts out the coupon, I think is honest. But is taking 150 of them, just because I can, honest? My feeling is not.

To me that is kind of like if there is a sample tray of sample food out in the bakery and I eat everything on the tray, not just one. That wouldn’t seem right to me (even though the thought has crossed my mind).

To take 150 cans of barbeque sauce off the shelf just because you can does not seem like an honest way of ‘getting gain’ anymore than hitting the lottery would. Just because it is legally available or possible doesn’t always translate to honesty. Agree or disagree?

[skippy740]

Ummm... I slightly disagree.

If you are abiding by the terms and conditions of the coupon (quantity limits, expiration dates, etc.), then its not your fault that you can maximize the use of coupons.

You can be honest and work really hard at using coupons to maximize your own savings.

I just can't stand the sight of the coupons in my house. I don't "coupon" because of all the mess that it generates. All that junk mail goes right into the recycling bin.

[Vort]

Have you ever read Douglas Hofstadter's Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid? It won the 1979 Pulizer Prize, and may be the most enjoyable book I have ever read. In it, the author demonstrates applications of Kurt Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem to show how any sufficiently complex system (in my own words) contains within itself its own seeds of self-destruction.

I believe our society is like this, and I think so-called "extreme couponing" is probably just one manifestation of that inborn weakness. I do not think that those who engage in this practice are dishonest. If it is not profitable to the seller, s/he can simply quit offering coupons. But the ultimate problem is the structure of our society and economy, not the actions of the couponers.

[KrazyKay]

I agree with you. I do use coupons, but just the coupons for the stuff I usually buy if I happen upon the coupon - like the ones that Krogers sends in the mail. Sometimes I will use a coupon to buy something to try it - but that's only when we have extra. But these extreme couponing seems a bit dishonest to me too - although I do not think these who participate in extreme couponing are intent on being dishonest. I believe their intents are honest in trying to save money. It just seems a bit wrong to me for me to do it. But I have no problems if others do extreme couponing.

[SQUARE]

I have thought about this too. This goes along the way of return policies. I think that it is up to each person on what they feel is being honest. But if the store policy states that you can use so many coupons, etc, or can take back the product for any reason, than you are following the rules. If the store sees that it is hindering there store business, than they will change the policy, whatever that may be. If you follow the rules, then I think that it is fine.

[NeuroTypical]

the reason manufacturers put out these coupons is to advertise their product with the hope of selling more.

Well - a clarification. Coupons are not about advertising. Coupons are there to attract price sensitive people that will otherwise not spend $ or spend it elsewhere.

Knowing that is the intention of the coupons, if I go out, like these ‘extreme couponers’ and get $3,000 worth of groceries and products for $45 just because I can, is that really honest?

I don't see anything dishonest about it. Just because someone has a reason for something, that reason does not bind someone else to any set behavior.

If I take 150 boxes of pasta and store it in the basement for “free” using coupons, I have taken away that company’s ability to make a profit on those boxes.

Maybe I don't get the concept you're thinking about. Why is "free" in quotes? Were they free or weren't they? Is someone breaking the rules? A lot of coupons say things like "one coupon per customer per visit" - are folks getting around that somehow?

Because if there's no rulebreaking going on, then no, the coupon user is not taking away anything. The company is making an offer - something they're willing to do, and the coupon user is accepting that offer.

To me that is kind of like if there is a sample tray of sample food out in the bakery and I eat everything on the tray, not just one. That wouldn’t seem right to me

Well, whenever you see a try with a sign that says "one per customer please", you can rest assured that someone tried it once. Signs, rules, and policies: Things that change when something results in an unwanted result.

Here are some things we occasionally do:

* Signed up for credit cards and bank accounts and whatnot we'll never use, to get the sign-up bonus.

* I used to frequent this site for their free offers, back when lots more companies had free offers. I built a stash of DVD read/write media that lasted 5 years this way.

* Comparison shop the heck out of everything we buy. We do a lot of business on ebay, amazon.com used, overstock.com, woot.com, and craigslist. I've made some wonderful deals that approach zero (not counting my time).

* We legally reduce the heck out of our taxes to keep them as low as possible - zero if we can manage it. Former U.S. Appeals Court Justice Learned Hand: “Anyone may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible. He is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the Treasury. Everyone does it, rich and poor alike, and all do right; for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands.”

Guilt due to extreme frugality seems misplaced to me.

LM

[Backroads]

I certainly see where you are coming from. I attended a couponing class last weekend and the instructor mentioned her irritation with people who abuse-while-technically-following-the-rules their coupons.

I love the idea of getting great deals and saving money. The people who save 3,000, I say more power to them. Yet you are right, some people do get greedy.

But as for the coupons themselves being cheating... I don't think so. I don't think any one participating (the manufacturer, the store, etc.) really loses out very much in the end.

For example, I'm part of Amazon Vine in which I get free stuff to keep every single month. The catch? I am required to blab my opinion about the products--which is totally cool with me.

Last month I received a treadmill valued at $1000 dollars and a laminator valued at $700. I suppose the company and Amazon.com are losing out on that money, but I don't see it as dishonesty.

To be honest, I think coupon using and free offers and what not is a fine part of provident living.

Edited June 10, 2011 by Backroads

[Dravin]

Disagree.

[classylady]

I don't extreme coupons, but do use coupons occasionally. I have a neighbor who coupons. She says she started using coupons after her husband had a drastic cut in pay. She's been able to bring her grocery bill down from $750.00 a month to around $250.00 a month. They're a family of six, with four young children. She doesn't work outside of the home, and she figures this is her "job"--this is the way she is able to save their family money.

Manufacturers wouldn't make coupons if it didn't bring them revenue. And for the stores, if they felt coupons were detrimental to their business, I'm sure they would restrict the use of coupons. I think it's actually a win/win situation.

[Vort]

Disagree.

Elaborate?

[HEthePrimate]

Seminarysnoozer,

I agree with you. It is perfectly ok to use coupons to save yourself some money, but I think your instincts are correct with regards to "extreme couponing." Just because you can get away with something, even if it's perfectly legal, does not mean it is right.

I can see both sides of the coin. One the one hand, I am a consumer/customer. I do not make a lot of money, and have to be very careful how I spend.

On the other hand, I also work in retail. Occasionally I see customers who try to take undue advantage of us. While we are willing to negotiate prices with people, we do have to make a profit in order to pay our own bills and keep the company afloat. We try very hard not to gouge customers, and appreciate it when they don't try to take advantage of us. Heck, if you walked into my workplace, I'd give you a special discount just for being honest!

The Golden Rule seems applicable: Treat people you are doing business with as you would wish to be treated.

Peace,

HEthePrimate

[Dravin]

Elaborate?

The manufacturer says, "Hey, if you take this slip of paper in we'll pay (well, reimburse) the store so they'll knock money off your purchase price. If we have any limitations we'll put it on the coupon."

The store says, "Hey, let's put something on sale real cheap."

Couponer says, "Hey, let's combine both of these offers."

If a store offers something at $10/10 and you have a coupon for X amount off guess what happens? The store sells you the item at $1 and the manufacturer of the coupon does their agreed upon bit of paying the store so you get the item cheaper. The end result is that store gets the price they offered the item at and the manufacturer gets his product sold but at a reduced profit as he agreed upon*. I'm failing to see where the dishonesty is if everyone is representing themselves and operating by the procedure and limitations put in place. It should be noted that clipping services make a coupon void, and in that way some couponers are being dishonest. Also, some of the people on the show seem like borderline hoarders to me but that's not a honesty issue.

It should also be noted, that around these parts, some of the stores (I know the Wal-Mart nearest me is) are offering classes on couponing, if they objected to the practice I'm fairly sure they'd not be going out of their way to tell people how to do it. As far as the manufacturer it doesn't matter what the store price is, if the Cheerios are $4 a box or $1 he's out the $1 for a box either way. And as you note, if people start using more coupons (out of the amount printed) and the manufacturer finds this untenable they'll start saying, "Woah!" and either reduce the number of coupons printed, reduce the value of the coupons printed, or introduce more restrictions to the use of the coupon.

* It's possible a store doesn't get the entire value of the coupon (I'm not knowledgeable about the processes), if such is the case they should probably adjust their prices accordingly or otherwise put policies in place to prevent having someone walk out of the store with 40 boxes of cereal for $0.10 apiece or what have you.

Edited June 10, 2011 by Dravin

[Vort]

Ah, I see. I did not know to which comments you were "Disagree"ing.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Maybe I don't get the concept you're thinking about. Why is "free" in quotes? Were they free or weren't they? Is someone breaking the rules? A lot of coupons say things like "one coupon per customer per visit" - are folks getting around that somehow?

"Free" because there really is a cost to making the product and the retailer having it in their store. The couponer is just passing the cost back to the manufacturer. It's not like breathing air, free.

[pam]

I've watched the show Extreme Couponing and I think it gives you some great ideas how to lower your food bill.

What concerned me was the obsession that some of these people had. It was like an addiction. Getting a peek into a guys garage and seeing his shelves upon shelves of deals he got was pretty amazing. However, seeing a shelf with about 50 bottles of salad dressing caused me some concern. Seriously what kind of savings is that when salad dressing has a very limited shelf life? Some of it seemed more wasteful than practical.

[Dravin]

However, seeing a shelf with about 50 bottles of salad dressing. Seriously what kind of savings is that when salad dressing has a very limited shelf life. Some of it seemed more wasteful than practical.

Yeah, that's what I meant about hoarding. Now sometimes they donate stuff they are getting cheap, but once you have more toothpaste then you can use before it expires you aren't saving money, you're wasting it by getting those extra 50 tubes for 10 cents a piece.

[pam]

Wait..toothpaste expires? :)

[Dravin]

Wait..toothpaste expires? :)

Yes. The box for a tube I bought just the other night gives an expiration date of Dec 2012 (well actually DE12). I leave it as an exercise for the reader to decide how much heed they want to give that date. I was basically mirroring your point but with a different product.

Edited June 11, 2011 by Dravin

[pam]

Yes. The box for a tube I bought just the other night gives an expiration date of Dec 2012 (well actually DE12). I leave it as an exercise for the reader to decide how much heed they want to give that date. I was basically mirroring your point but with a different product.

Well duh Dravin. Of course it says December 2012. That's another prediction for the end of the world.

[slamjet]

Why does the phrase "Extreme Couponing" give me the image of someone jumping through rings of fire to get that $1.00 off a bag of dog food with a double coupon as a bonus prize?

[Dravin]

Why does the phrase "Extreme Couponing" give me the image of someone jumping through rings of fire to get that $1.00 off a bag of dog food with a double coupon as a bonus prize?

If only it was like that. You should see the Wal-Marts around here on Double Coupon day, it's bedlam.

[pam]

If only it was like that. You should see the Wal-Marts around here on Double Coupon day, it's bedlam.

And they still only have 2 check out stands open out of 20.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Heck, if you walked into my workplace, I'd give you a special discount just for being honest!

Thanks, ... where do you work? (kidding)

[Seminarysnoozer]

The manufacturer says, "Hey, if you take this slip of paper in we'll pay (well, reimburse) the store so they'll knock money off your purchase price. If we have any limitations we'll put it on the coupon."

The store says, "Hey, let's put something on sale real cheap."

Couponer says, "Hey, let's combine both of these offers."

If a store offers something at $10/10 and you have a coupon for X amount off guess what happens? The store sells you the item at $1 and the manufacturer of the coupon does their agreed upon bit of paying the store so you get the item cheaper. The end result is that store gets the price they offered the item at and the manufacturer gets his product sold but at a reduced profit as he agreed upon*. I'm failing to see where the dishonesty is if everyone is representing themselves and operating by the procedure and limitations put in place. It should be noted that clipping services make a coupon void, and in that way some couponers are being dishonest. Also, some of the people on the show seem like borderline hoarders to me but that's not a honesty issue.

It should also be noted, that around these parts, some of the stores (I know the Wal-Mart nearest me is) are offering classes on couponing, if they objected to the practice I'm fairly sure they'd not be going out of their way to tell people how to do it. As far as the manufacturer it doesn't matter what the store price is, if the Cheerios are $4 a box or $1 he's out the $1 for a box either way. And as you note, if people start using more coupons (out of the amount printed) and the manufacturer finds this untenable they'll start saying, "Woah!" and either reduce the number of coupons printed, reduce the value of the coupons printed, or introduce more restrictions to the use of the coupon.

* It's possible a store doesn't get the entire value of the coupon (I'm not knowledgeable about the processes), if such is the case they should probably adjust their prices accordingly or otherwise put policies in place to prevent having someone walk out of the store with 40 boxes of cereal for $0.10 apiece or what have you.

As with all "honesty" issues, if the other side knew what the person was doing would they want them to do it that way? In other words, if the manufacturer knew that Mrs. X was digging in the trash to find 150 coupons for one item, say bottles of mustard, or something any normal family would not need 150 of at one time, would they say that they intended the consumer to use one or two coupons each and not 150, to get 150 bottles for free. And if you think they didn't want them to do it that way, whether it is written in the fine print of the coupon or not, doesn't matter, that is dishonest, no?

If the manufacturer of the product was standing there at the checkout stand with the people doing this, do you think they would approve or disapprove or tell you that this was not the intended purpose of the coupon? Or you think they would say, 'go for it, my bad, I should pay the price for making such a mistake by not putting it in the fine print'. How would that be any different than a bank making an error and the person walking away with the extra cash say, 'well, they should have caught that, they have to pay the price for their mistake, I'm not taking the money back'. The last example is more obvious, but is it morally different than using hundreds of the same coupons?

Obviously, there is a difference between what is illegal versus what is dishonest. I am not talking about whether it is legal or even possible. Just, in terms of being 'honest in all our dealings', the extreme couponing seems to be in a grey zone, and leaning towards it not being honest.

[Dravin]

And if you think they didn't want them to do it that way, whether it is written in the fine print of the coupon or not, doesn't matter, that is dishonest, no?

The only way to know they wouldn't want you to use it that way would be for it to be in the fine print or for them to make an official announcement.

If the manufacturer of the product was standing there at the checkout stand with the people doing this, do you think they would approve or disapprove or tell you that this was not the intended purpose of the coupon?

I would think if manufacturers disapproved of such behavior they would voice it via announcement or in the fine print. So no, due to them not doing such I do not think they disapprove of said behavior.

Or you think they would say, 'go for it, my bad, I should pay the price for making such a mistake by not putting it in the fine print'.

I think they'd say, "Wow, you really like mustard, glad it's French's brand." You are assuming that a lack of limitation of use on the coupon is some sort of oversight.

How would that be any different than a bank making an error and the person walking away with the extra cash say, 'well, they should have caught that, they have to pay the price for their mistake, I'm not taking the money back'.

Well because being able to use multiple coupons isn't an error. If they didn't want you to use multiple coupons they would limit in the fine print. That they didn't isn't because they're all so incompetent and unintelligent over at General Mills/Jiff/Sauve that they couldn't think of putting a limit on them. Particularly since they seem to do fine putting limits and restrictions on coupons.

If I had a coupon and the clerk accidently scanned it twice that would be analogous to the bank error.

Edited June 11, 2011 by Dravin