The Atheist Comes In Peace

[TheMusicTheory]

I have to imagine you get this a lot. Someone registers on the forum, introduces themselves as a non-theist, or even a member of a different faith. They claim they are here only to learn or to foster a dialogue. No ill intent.

At first, all is well, but slowly (and sometimes, not so slowly) that person springs to the attack, and suddenly this supposed humble learner shows themselves to be nothing more than a part of the hate machine.

Allow me, then, to...well, pretty much use the same opening line I guess. That didn't quite work out at all, did it?

As the title of the thread might suggest, I am, in fact, an Atheist. I don't personally like using the term because it tends to conjure negative impressions, but it is an accurate word, so I use it.

In my youth I was a member of a different Christian faith (specifically Baptist, although the highly congregational style of that particular denomination precludes easy categorizing) and as I grew older and into my college years I eventually fell out of it entirely, and so here I am today.

Despite my lack of religion, I am always curious about things. I have found that in the past, a lot of boards devoted to other faiths or even other denominations of Christianity have not been quite as welcoming to me. Everything I have experienced of Mormon followers first hand leads me to believe that will not be the case here, and I hope I'm right.

I'm taking the time to say all of this because I want to assure you that, as I post in the various threads here and ask questions or participate in discussions, I do so only with the intent of increasing my own understanding of your particular faith. You may not be used to an Atheist having any respect for your belief system, but that is not the case with me. At no point will you ever catch me trying to "convert" you, either overtly or subtly. I am not here to try and destroy your faith (which is a pointless exercise. Belief, or even non-Belief, is not something one can simply snap a finger at and disperse, and it annoys me to no end when I see people try and force the issue), but only to learn, ask questions, and participate.

I would hope, also, that if you ever have any questions for me, personally, that you would by all means ask them. Perhaps about my Atheism, or my journey to reach that point, or maybe just to clear up a misconception. I am an open book.

I don't want to start a thread without a question, of course! So I think the most basic one will do for now: If I wanted a sort of "cliffs notes" version of your views and beliefs, where would be the best place to get it? I intend to delve deeper than that eventually, of course, but I'd like to at least have a working knowledge from the *source*, and not from what the internet tells me is "correct".

Thank you in advance.

[KrazyKay]

Welcome TheMusicTheory,

I'm going to guess, by your username, that either you like music and are a musician or a music teacher. I also enjoy music even though I am tone deaf. I play the piano and the flute. But don't ask me to sing - I sound like a cat in a tin can, .

Anyway, on to your question. A wonderful book that is kinda an introduction to the LDS Faith is Mormonism: A Very Short Introduction

I know you said you don't want what the internet says is "correct" - I assume you mean none-lds sites... but these are some very good websites that can help:

Answers About Mormons and Mormon Belief (LDS FAQ - Latter-day Saints)

Ask Gramps - Q & A about Mormon Doctrine

Book of Mormon on Trial - this one has a comic book that is very good

and of course the two main LDS websites:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Mormon.org

[TheMusicTheory]

I'm going to guess, by your username, that either you like music and are a musician or a music teacher. I also enjoy music even though I am tone deaf. I play the piano and the flute. But don't ask me to sing - I sound like a cat in a tin can, .

I am a professional musician and composer, yes! Music has always been my passion, and I have been fortunate to turn that into a career.

I know you said you don't want what the internet says is "correct" - I assume you mean none-lds sites...

That was exactly what I meant. I always want the source, not hear-say. I'm sure you're aware that there are a LOT of sites on the internet about Mormonism, and I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of them aren't speaking from any position of true authority on the subject.

[Vort]

I am a professional musician and composer, yes! Music has always been my passion, and I have been fortunate to turn that into a career.

I'm a beginning adult violin student. Which are your favorite web sites on music theory? (Preferably something more than "these are scales, these are quarter notes, these are half-steps and whole steps", and other such things as you learn when you take piano lessons at age six.) Any general advice for an adult beginner?

[TheMusicTheory]

I'm a beginning adult violin student. Which are your favorite web sites on music theory? (Preferably something more than "these are scales, these are quarter notes, these are half-steps and whole steps", and other such things as you learn when you take piano lessons at age six.) Any general advice for an adult beginner?

One of the best sites I've ever found is Ricci Adams' Musictheory.net

It presents beginner, intermediate and somewhat advanced theory in a way that isn't terribly patronizing to adults, and the different sections mean you can sort of just start where you want, skipping anything you know already.

I'll admit, though, that as a Theorist, I tend to stick to books most of the time...and I probably have far too many of those! But that site is a good one, you might check it out.

As for advice? The standard, of course: Practice, Practice, Practice!

But outside of that, music should always be enjoyable. It should be an experience you love doing. It's easy to get frustrated when something is working correctly, or you work on a passage for *ages* and can't seem to lick it. It's important in those moments to remember why you started to play the instrument in the first place. Everything else will come, it just takes time!

[hope2909]

I am a convert to the LDS religion and I found that a good outline is the articles of faith. I used to be catholic and its like the Nicene Creed for Mormons which basically outlines what we believe in. Besides that you can go onto Mormon.org and actually talk to Mormon missionaries right online and they can answer any questions you have about anything and go into as much detail as you want. i found that very informative. They arent like regular missionaries pushing you to convert either so its very comfortable to go on.

[TheMusicTheory]

I am a convert to the LDS religion and I found that a good outline is the articles of faith. I used to be catholic and its like the Nicene Creed for Mormons which basically outlines what we believe in. Besides that you can go onto Mormon.org and actually talk to Mormon missionaries right online and they can answer any questions you have about anything and go into as much detail as you want. i found that very informative. They arent like regular missionaries pushing you to convert either so its very comfortable to go on.

I had not considered this, thank you for the information!

[bytebear]

Have you read the Book of Mormon? I assume you are familiar with the Bible, and the generalities of Christianity. I would start with a reading of the Book of Mormon, and as you hit doctrinal issues, ask about them.

[TheMusicTheory]

Have you read the Book of Mormon? I assume you are familiar with the Bible, and the generalities of Christianity. I would start with a reading of the Book of Mormon, and as you hit doctrinal issues, ask about them.

I do plan to read it in the future. A copy sits on my shelf at this moment (a gift from one of your missionaries, in fact. I was more than happy to accept it!).

But I want to be able to devote the proper time to it, and so for now I was simply seeking a way to more familiarize myself with the ideas behind the LDS faith. I will most definitely have questions, I can guarantee it!

[Universeman]

I just want to say a quick hello and extend to you a warm welcome. I am a convert, I was raised to believe in young earth creationism. The only reason I am not an atheist my self is a very long story which I will not bore you with the details. Suffice it to say that I believe that the real universe is hidden from our view, but what we see and feel in this life is not make believe or a contrivance to test our faith. But I also have an intense desire to believe that the LDS faith is indeed real, by so doing I have been greatly blessed, in spiritual and personal growth, as well as having my temporal needs met in clearly miraculous ways. Plus if atheists are right I will be deeply disappointed when I die and discover that I no longer exist, lol.

See you a round.

[Backroads]

Welcome!

I've played the piano for twenty years and while I'm pretty darn good at that I am actually tone-deaf. That's my music.

I rather like the idea of atheism. I had an atheist once ask me why if I like it I don't just become one. Well, I happen to believe in a higher power and I'm sure I would no matter what. But I do very much support the idea of living life to the fullest and being a good person and whatnot for completely altruistic reasons.

[pam]

It was mentioned earlier about our 13 Articles of Faith. Here they are for your info:

• We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
• We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
• We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
• We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
• We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
• We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
• We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
• We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
• We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
• We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
• We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
• We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
• We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

[Martain]

Interesting... very interesting...

Sir you come off as very affiable and I applaud your efforts. In as much as you are able to stay true to your original statement of intent I do indeed see you enjoying your time here.

When one wants to be a dilligent learner, one does indeed try to come as close to the source as possible.

This link will help. In addition to being one of the official websites of the Latter Day Saint Church, it also explains many words you might find new to your vocabulary and the offical standing point of the Church on various matters.

Another thought I had is this. If going to the advocates is the first step in learning something new (as opposed to the critics), then would not the second be suspending disbelief long enough to... expirament?

When you do read the Book of Mormon, this what I think you are in part doing. Yet I will hope you will do one other thing when reading. I hope you will read it with the thoughts of "What if..." as in "What if this is true?" rather than coming to it with a set mind and preconcluded determination to see it as false.

That's my hope anyways =).

[TheMusicTheory]

Interesting... very interesting...

When you do read the Book of Mormon, this what I think you are in part doing. Yet I will hope you will do one other thing when reading. I hope you will read it with the thoughts of "What if..." as in "What if this is true?" rather than coming to it with a set mind and preconcluded determination to see it as false.

That's my hope anyways =).

Before I address this I just quickly want to say that I appreciate all the helpful links people have posted! I certainly have a lot of homework to do.

As for your statement, I think it is important that if one claims to have an open mind, as I do, that one approaches new things without a bias as best you can. Obviously true non-bias is nearly impossible to achieve. We are the sum of our experiences, after all. But while I do not necessarily *expect* to find a revelation for myself while reading, it would be the height of arrogance to take the position that I most *certainly* will not. That is small minded thinking and it isn't useful to anyone.

[Martain]

Then my hope is fouded in truth. =)

[HiJolly]

I don't want to start a thread without a question, of course! So I think the most basic one will do for now: If I wanted a sort of "cliffs notes" version of your views and beliefs, where would be the best place to get it? I intend to delve deeper than that eventually, of course, but I'd like to at least have a working knowledge from the *source*, and not from what the internet tells me is "correct".

Thank you in advance.

Welcome.

I am a musician and actually am going on 'tour' this Monday. It's only a week long tour, with 7 concerts in Norfolk VA, D.C.(Wolftrap), Philly, Chautauqua NY and Toronto Canada.

I think I understand the atheistic viewpoint fairly well, and hope to be able to contribute to your understanding of the LDS viewpoint. I can't really do better in terms of source materials, than what has already been given in the thread, though.

Here are what I consider to be some bedrock uniquenesses (is that a word?) of Mormonism:

God and man are of a 'like' kind. We are family, literally, in the spiritual sense. Yes, spirituality (or, the subjective) can be literal. Thus, the value of revelation.

All truth, from whatever source, is of value. Not all truth is taught by the Church, yet all truth is contained within the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore necessarily, each member must pursue truth individually and privately. Some things should not be shared. As I. Kant said,

"Many things can be true and yet harmful to man. Not all truth is useful."

(p.43 Lectures on Logic, (translated by J. Michael Young))

This tension in the value/uselessness of truth is a paradox, a mystery that people can benefit from if they will ponder the point.

Just for starters...

HJ

Edited June 17, 2011 by HiJolly
clarification

[Seminarysnoozer]

I have to imagine you get this a lot. Someone registers on the forum, introduces themselves as a non-theist, or even a member of a different faith. They claim they are here only to learn or to foster a dialogue. No ill intent.

At first, all is well, but slowly (and sometimes, not so slowly) that person springs to the attack, and suddenly this supposed humble learner shows themselves to be nothing more than a part of the hate machine.

Allow me, then, to...well, pretty much use the same opening line I guess. That didn't quite work out at all, did it?

As the title of the thread might suggest, I am, in fact, an Atheist. I don't personally like using the term because it tends to conjure negative impressions, but it is an accurate word, so I use it.

In my youth I was a member of a different Christian faith (specifically Baptist, although the highly congregational style of that particular denomination precludes easy categorizing) and as I grew older and into my college years I eventually fell out of it entirely, and so here I am today.

Despite my lack of religion, I am always curious about things. I have found that in the past, a lot of boards devoted to other faiths or even other denominations of Christianity have not been quite as welcoming to me. Everything I have experienced of Mormon followers first hand leads me to believe that will not be the case here, and I hope I'm right.

I'm taking the time to say all of this because I want to assure you that, as I post in the various threads here and ask questions or participate in discussions, I do so only with the intent of increasing my own understanding of your particular faith. You may not be used to an Atheist having any respect for your belief system, but that is not the case with me. At no point will you ever catch me trying to "convert" you, either overtly or subtly. I am not here to try and destroy your faith (which is a pointless exercise. Belief, or even non-Belief, is not something one can simply snap a finger at and disperse, and it annoys me to no end when I see people try and force the issue), but only to learn, ask questions, and participate.

I would hope, also, that if you ever have any questions for me, personally, that you would by all means ask them. Perhaps about my Atheism, or my journey to reach that point, or maybe just to clear up a misconception. I am an open book.

I don't want to start a thread without a question, of course! So I think the most basic one will do for now: If I wanted a sort of "cliffs notes" version of your views and beliefs, where would be the best place to get it? I intend to delve deeper than that eventually, of course, but I'd like to at least have a working knowledge from the *source*, and not from what the internet tells me is "correct".

Thank you in advance.

The thirteen Articles of Faith is a cliff notes version of our beliefs. A "working knowledge" of course would only be obtained by living the principles of the faith.

[Traveler]

The Music theory: As an engineer and scientist I have had many interchanges with atheists. I once worked with Chris Allen - the head of the Utah chapter of atheists (anyway he use to be - we have been out of touch for some time). He and I once had a deep “discussion” or I should say “debate” about G-d. What I discovered is that if I had the same understanding of G-d that he has; that I would be an atheists as well. It is impossible to have an intelligent discussion when the understanding of what we thinking we are debating has no common ground. In essence I am not an atheist because I cannot logically see any other possibility except the emergence of G-d as man evolves.

As a second thing of interest - perhaps we can discuss music. I believe music and mathematics to be very similar. I have been consulting with some “elements” in the movie industry in the science fiction and fantasy theme. I have suggested that music is a form of magic that has survived through the ages. That understanding “harmonic” frequencies could allow ancients to levitate heavy objects or to shape them or otherwise control them. Anyway welcome - I look forward to crossing logical swords with you while you are here.

The Traveler

[pam]

Welcome.

I am a musician and actually am going on 'tour' this Monday. It's only a week long tour, with 7 concerts in Norfolk VA, D.C.(Wolftrap), Philly, Chautauqua NY and Toronto Canada.

Wow what a coincidence. The Mormon Tabernacle Choir is going to those exact same places next week.

[Guest Godless]

Welcome!

[prisonchaplain]

Greetings! I happen to come from a similar tradition to the one of your youth--Assemblies of God. Like you, I came to learn, to share my life and thoughts...and this is a good place.

As an outsider, I stumbled upon a site that some LDS appreciate, and others would not recommend. It offers the Book of Mormon in plain English, including illustrations. Since this is a paraphrase at best, some here would suggest that you cannot feel the Spirit in the same way the actual Book of Mormon brings. Nevertheless, I found the work highly intelligent, and clear. The site author is LDS, so certainly is attempting to make his faith's scripture accessible.

Plain Book of Mormon

[prophetofdoom]

I am very impressed with MusicTheory's honesty and openness.

[bytebear]

I would recommend going through the Gospel Principles Manual. It is the new members Sunday School manual, and covers pretty much all the basics.

Gospel Principles 

LDS.org is a great resource too. It has all the scriptures online, all the church manuals, just about every general church talk from the last 50 years (or more) so there is plenty to read up on. The search feature is great too, so if you want to research a particular topic, just look it up.

Oh, it also has the hymn book.

[Guest Godless]

Wow what a coincidence. The Mormon Tabernacle Choir is going to those exact same places next week.

I just found out that my parents are going to be attending the concert in Philly. I think it's funny that I read about it first here.