Women Having Careers

[FutureMD]

Hi,

I'm new to the forum and am looking for some advice. I am about to start medical school in August and recently moved to the new city where I'll be attending school and started going to my new YSA ward. This past Sunday, I had a sit-down with the Bishop and thought it would be a typical get-to-know-you type thing, but I came away from it very conflicted and confused.

I felt like the interview was going fine, all the normal questions, where I'm from, what callings I've had in the past, blah blah blah. Then he found out medical school is what brought me to his ward and the entire mood changed. He told me that he didn't agree with "girls" pursuing careers that would ultimately interfere with them being mothers. (Both my parents are doctors, btw). He asked me if I've read the family proclamation and if I felt my decision was in line with its teachings. I said yes, and that each person has their own path in life, and as long as you're in line with God's will, you need to follow your path. He asked me if I had prayed and pondered about this decision, I said yes of course, and he said that I should pray and fast some more. He said that "as my priesthood leader" he strongly advises me to reconsider my decision and to think about what eternal consequences I could be bringing upon myself by becoming a doctor. He said I might be eliminating many boys from my dating pool and setting myself up to be single and childless for this earthly life.

Now, I was raised to support and sustain my church leaders. But I just don't know how to feel about this. Becoming a doctor has been a lifelong dream of mine, I've always felt it was my path in life, and have never felt promptings telling me to reconsider. I've prayed very heavily on the matter, especially on where I should attend school, since I could possibly meet my future husband in the next 4 years, and I want to be in the right place for me. I've always, 100%, felt completely right about pursuing an education and going to med school. And I have been very prayerful and thoughtful about this decision.

But since he's my bishop, and he technically has the spiritual mantle of jurisdiction over me, what do I do? Should I take his concerns more seriously? My knee-jerk reaction was actually anger. I was very upset that he would say things like that to me, in the condescending manner that he did, without even really knowing me. But my heart has been softened and now I'm trying to make sense of everything, big picture.

Do any of you have advice on the matter? I'm very confused...and now I feel like my Bishop already has something against me before he even knows me. This is stressing me out! Help!

[Vort]

First: Welcome!

Second: Good luck in med school, especially (from what I hear) with gross anatomy. Get ready for the joyful life that is being an M1!

Third: Where are you going to school?

Fourth: I appreciate your attitude toward your bishop. Keep it up. He is your Priesthood leader, and he does have authority to receive revelation on your behalf. But he isn't making your decisions for you; that's your job. If he gives you counsel, take that counsel seriously, take it to heart, and make it a matter of prayer and pondering. But don't allow yourself to feel bullied into doing something. That's not the point, and it is not appropriate.

How do you feel about the following statement?

A woman's place is in the home.

Do you agree with it? Because it is true. The very highest calling a woman is given is to be the wife to a husband, and for them to be parents to children. Nothing is greater or more exalting than motherhood. Whatever work you ever accomplish in this life, even if you win the Nobel Prize in medicine, nothing will be of greater eternal significance than what you accomplish within the walls of your own home. Nothing.

Do you believe this? If so, you will do fine. If not, you may need to readjust your priorities.

If the Spirit whispered to you to leave medical school, would you? Would you give up the glory, riches, and honor of being a doctor just so that you could pursue the callings of wife and mother in a stay-at-home capacity? If you can honestly answer "yes", then I think you probably have no problems. If you can't honestly answer "yes", then to repeat myself, you may need to readjust your priorities.

This may sound like a harsh thing, but it is not. It is the reality of happiness. Joy and happiness come in following God's commandments and counsels, and in no other way.

If it makes you feel any better, all of the above applies equally to the statement:

A man's place is in the home.

The only difference is that we have been instructed that a woman's primary duty in the home is the nurture of children, and the man's is to provide protection and the necessities of life. In my opinion, this does not preclude you from becoming a medical doctor. But that is really between you and the Lord, with input and guidance from your Priesthood leaders (including your future husband).

No one can or will make you do anything, so you don't need to worry about that. Just take care not to allow yourself to get bitter or hardened, or to decide that Bishop So-and-so is a chauvinist pig and therefore you need not listen to anything he says. Such a rebellious attitude will drive you further from your Father in heaven and make his voice very difficult to hear. Stay meek and humble, and the Lord will guide you. That's my advice, anyway.

PS Don't let my avatar fool you. If my advice makes me sound like a 48-year-old father of five, it's because I am.

[millionaire13]

My experience over the years is that sometimes bishops (or other leaders) make judgments or say things they have no business doing. A bishop is a spiritual advisor, not a career counselor or financial planner. I have had bishops tell me what they thought I should do in areas of my life that was of no concern to them. Spiritual counsel is different than a bishop simply spouting off an opinion.

Follow your heart. You are the only one accountable for you. If med school is the right path for you, then make all the sacrifices you need to to make it happen. If it is not the right path, then you will know and be open to pursuing the things you are led to do.

[Echo2002]

I agree with Vort, if you are willing to give up medical school or being a doctor to take care of children when the time comes then I say go ahead and continue on your path. Maybe the Bishop is concerned that you will not want to date or get married once you get into medical school.

On the other hand I feel like it wasn't his place to tell you you need to think of another career or sit around and wait to get married and have children. The General Authorities have always stressed the importance of an education for everyone in the church, men and women.

[Vort]

I agree with Vort, if you are willing to give up medical school or being a doctor to take care of children when the time comes then I say go ahead and continue on your path. Maybe the Bishop is concerned that you will not want to date or get married once you get into medical school.

To be clear, I was not trying to suggest that medical school is okay until children come along. I was trying to say that as long as your desires are pure and you are true to them, you will be all right.

You need to be willing, truly and deeply and honestly willing, to sacrifice your career in medicine (or whatever else) for the benefit of your husband and/or children. This willingness is required of all who are truly Saints. Most of us won't be called upon to put this willingness to the test -- but should we be, we should be faithful to our principles.

[Saldrin]

I cant tell you what the bishops motives are. some people think worldly things matter and if you are on one level you can only look to those that are above you to be a proper husband. just what i heard from a lady once, and i don't buy it. as long as you don't get stuck looking up you will find someone who has the love and the will to make a family with you and your career work.

you said your mom is a doc ask her how she did it, you may glean advice there that none of us here could give. just a thought.

I like what Vort said 100%

[bytebear]

I think the advice to drop medical school is just plain wrong. Regardless of what you decide to do with your life, any pursuit of knowledge and education should not be discouraged. Regardless of what you do with that education, it's knowledge that you cannot lose. Reminds me of the Count of Monte Cristo. The one thing no one can take away from you is knowledge. Just don't let it hinder you from having a family.

[Blocky]

Take his advice and pray and ponder on your choices. Perhaps you'll be surprised to find that the way you feel about your chosen profession becomes even stronger. If nothing else, it can be an excellent way to help you become better at discerning the Spirit from your own thoughts.

I know many women with advanced degrees who have active careers outside the home that are happy and wonderful mothers. I know even more women who have advanced degrees and use them every day as they raise their children without outside careers. I really don't see why becoming a doctor needs to hurt your ability to find an eternal partner. As far as the decision to how many hours you'll put into your practice once married and later when you probably have children, that doesn't need to be set in stone now. I can think of so many ways that having a mother who is a dr. would be so wonderful for a family.

[Soulsearcher]

Considering the number of LDS women i know who have either been left destitute because they have nothing to fall back on when their marriage falls apart, or have had to support their husbands and family cause their husbands are useless, or feel trapped in a marriage because they never explored a world outside the home to support them selves, i think the advice was less than helpful, more so because they followed the direct or implied counsel similar to what this bishop has said. In the ideal world where everything is always going to work out for the best, then maybe it makes sense, but all women should have something to fall back on at least, and having a career they love and find happiness in that can support her in times of need is a must.

[mightynancy]

Your bishop *is* your leader, but he does not have more "jurisdiction over" you than you do.

I'm agape.

[HEthePrimate]

FutureMD,

Because we're not allowed to use stronger language here, I'll say this: Your bishop is full of feces. (Seriously! Ask his proctologist!)

Also, always remember that YOU are entitled to receive revelation in your own behalf.

While I agree that family takes precedence over career (and I thank Vort for pointing out that a man's place is in the home, as well as a woman's place), I also think that women don't always need to sacrifice careers to that end. You mentioned that both of your parents were doctors. If they could make it work, I see no reason why you couldn't. And hey, when your kids get sick, you'll be right there, and know exactly what to do!

Peace, and good luck in medical school!

[FutureMD]

Thanks for all the great advice!

I want to clarify a couple points you all brought up.

I absolutely believe in the doctrine of divine nature and have a testimony that as a woman, I have the God-given privilege of bearing and raising children.

I am not pursuing medicine for worldly or monetary purposes. If being a doctor only paid $20K a year, I would still do it. I am also not pursuing medicine to have a "fall-back" incase I am widowed or find myself divorced.

I am pursuing medicine because I love it that much and feel that this is truly my purpose and calling in life. I am pursuing medicine because I honestly believe that I have the potential to do great things with this path that are bigger and greater than me. I have received my own spiritual confirmation about my choice and know that through medicine, Heavenly Father is going to magnify my talents and abilities to serve and help so many.

If I ever, for one second, felt that my career was hindering or harming my (future) children in any way, I would quit. But as many of you have acknowledged, my own mother is a physician and I never for one second felt neglected. I always knew us kids were #1, and we are a very strong Mormon family.

I suppose I will pray and fast some more about what my Bishop said, but I'm scared that I'll just get the same answer--to stay on my course--and then he will be prejudiced against me. I guess that's jumping to conclusions, but I've always had a good, close relationship with all my Bishops, so I feel like I'm off to a rocky start with this one

Also, what do you guys think about the actual "consequences" of me finding a future spouse and also being a Mormon, female doctor? Am I really pegging myself into a hole? I feel like I am already "old" by Mormon standards and I feel like a lot of Mormon guys don't like girls who pursue careers. What do you all think?

P.S. Vort--I'm already really nervous about posting on here, so to stay as anonymous as possible, I'd like to keep my University anonymous as well. I hope you understand :)

[Echo2002]

I say continue on your path and don't worry about hurting the Bishop's feeling or creating a rift between you two. You sound like you've already got confirmation that the path you have chosen is the one you need to be on. Just curious, have you read your patriarchal blessing? Maybe that will provide additional help.

I think some guys are intimidated by girls who pursue careers, especially if they think that your career is better than theirs. You just have to put yourself out there and find a guy who is not intimidated.

[MarginOfError]

First, unlike Vort, I think that your bishop is being a first class blow hard on this subject (you'll find Vort and I disagree a lot here :)). My first question to him would be if he says the same thing to any woman pursuing an advanced degree. If his answer is yes, I'd then have a discussion with the stake president. My experience with people, however, has been that a sudden change of demeanor upon receipt of new information is usually an indication of predjudice and not of spiritual prompting.

Just some things to think about:

In a former stake, we had a bishop who stayed home with his kids while his wife worked. She had more earning power than he did, and they felt it made more sense to switch up the traditional roles. Sadly, there was such an uproar over the fact that the "bishop wasn't providing for his family" that he eventually went and got a night job stocking shelves at a grocery store just to shut up the detractors.

A family down the street from me has a working mom and a stay at home dad. The mom finished her degree first, so the father stayed home until the kids were done with elementary school, then he started finishing his degree. He now works part time, and when the kids are done with high school, he'll work full time.

There is a single mother in my troop who is an MD. She researches immunizations against malaria. If I remember correctly, her son was born as a result of donor sperm--she's never been married and her son doesn't know his father. She simply felt that she wanted a child, but didn't feel she was close to getting married. She's happy, her parents are involved, and the boy is one of the rising stars of our troop--probably more stable than several of the boys from two parent homes in our troop.

Life is not one-size-fits-all. Life is one-size-fits-a-lot. If you feel comfortable that you're a different size, go forth and be happy.

[Suzie]

If I have read this thread two weeks ago, I would have probably suspect it was a joke. Seriously. Just reading the OP and some of the replies gave me the shivers. The reason I say two weeks is because just last Sunday, a sister (who is the wife of a leader) said in sacrament meeting to the YM to "find a good wife, one that doesn't want a dog or a career".

Yep, my jaw dropped to the floor.

[MarginOfError]

If I have read this thread two weeks ago, I would have probably suspect it was a joke. Seriously. Just reading the OP and some of the replies gave me the shivers. The reason I say two weeks is because just last Sunday, a sister (who is the wife of a leader) said in sacrament meeting to the YM to "find a good wife, one that doesn't want a dog or a career".

Yep, my jaw dropped to the floor.

The comment about the dog I totally understand

[Truegrits]

"find a good wife, one that doesn't want a dog or a career".

While I can understand (not agree with) the career admonition, a dog/pet, really??????????? Never heard that one.

[Suzie]

The comment about the dog I totally understand

lol

[Suzie]

While I can understand (not agree with) the career admonition, a dog/pet, really??????????? Never heard that one.

I think she meant it as a way to state that some women want pets but not children.

[rameumptom]

Your bishop is using older counsel from the Church given decades ago that women should stay at home. That counsel is no longer given as such. However, we are counseled to not wait to marry, have children, etc. That said, the GAs also realize that the counsel does not apply to everyone in the same way. That is why we have personal prayer and guidance.

I would listen to the bishop's counsel in praying and fasting about it, but then listen to the Spirit. If he continues to bug you about it, I'd suggest discussing it with the stake presidency and get their advice on how to manage an over-bearing and micro-managing bishop.

[sensibility]

My bishop once counselled me to build a career in education and to put off having kids for the first four or five years of my marriage. I didn't do either, and I didn't even feel the need to pray for permission to dismiss his counsel. Those are areas where my husband and I retain full stewardship; the bishop can make suggestions, just like any other family friend, but the stewardship rests with individuals.

You can support your bishop in his calling as the father of the ward while still retaining stewardship over your own life choices. I know he doesn't have to raise his hand to sustain you in that stewardship, but it exists all the same. Exercising it isn't disrespectful or subversive, even if your bishop disagrees with those choices.

"Girls" purusing careers . . . I'm cringing for you. You're being much more humble about this than I would be -- clearly I'm not ready for this sort of trial yet.

[Truegrits]

I think she meant it as a way to state that some women want pets but not children.

Oh... Well, they are less expensive to feed, clothe, maintain.

Plus their unconditional love and loyality. No rebellious teenage years.

Ummmmm...I can see that.

[Jennarator]

The church reccomends that women are educated. I see no problem with getting that education in any degree you want. You already stated you are willing to sacrific you career if it hinders the progression of your children.

Congrats in getting into med school, it's not easy to do. You seem to have turned out well, both your parents work. I think you are a big girl are doing fine.

[Backroads]

I don't get this bishop.

Yes, he is able to receive revelation for you and all that good stuff. But I'm sensing he's confusing revelation on your behalf with his own opinions... which a bishop has no place to do. Time will pass and he will be honorably released from his calling and possibly move onto to serve another calling. He will no longer be your bishop. You, on the other hand, will still be living whatever life you choose.

I believe it's all been said: By all means, pray and fast and ponder. But if you're not personally inspired to give into your bishop's rather outdated views, don't. Your second post makes it seem you've a good head on your shoulders about this. There is nothing wrong with being a doctor and helping people. In fact, it's a wonderful and grand thing.

Though I speak as a female, I think a woman who wants a career and/or an education is a desirable thing. In fact, I try not to make fun of girls who are set on getting married young and raising a family and avoiding any sort of education. I don't laugh at their desire to get married/have a family, but at the fact they have no other interests in their lives. Does nothing intrigue them? Have they no dreams or knowledge to share with their future families? What is more attractive than a girl who hasn't happened to be married yet who has an interest in medical studies, or in literature, or in bossing people around in a corporate setting, in rocks, etc, and persues such interests? What is more boring than an unmarried girl who sits around moping?

Granted, I'm something of a living cliche. I pursued elementary education--which is established as a career that only serves until the babies come. I took it because I like kids, never really grew up, and was unable to settle on a single interest and liked the all-encompassing nature of elementary ed's basics. Currently, I work in an office--another female stereotype. My true passion that doubtfully will ever support a family is writing. I actually recall having trouble getting dates with some guys because they misinterpreted my interested in elementary education. Annoying, but I can see and support where they are coming from.

As long as your priorities are in line, the sky is the limit.

[Guest]

Can he offer you a written guarantee that you'll marry and have children before you're done with med school? Not that I'm saying you won't, but who knows what will happen? Since you have the strong ambition to go into medicine it's a moot point, anyway. Personally, I didn't finish college and get my nursing degree like I wanted to because I thought I'd be getting married and having children, anyway. Well I could have finished college by the time I got married, and then it took us a few years and a lot of ($$$) fertility treatment to have our children. If I hadn't been so short-sighted, we would have had some easier years financially. We still made it, but I have regrets.

Also, I'm going to go ahead and call your bishop a chauvinist. But as others have said, don't let that discount your view of him as your ward's leader. I'm sure he's otherwise a perfectly lovely person. :)