Modesty dilema

[dash77]

I would try to be understanding to your wife and try to see the positives in her new style. She probably feels like she has finally figured out how to dress well and is enjoying the confidence that comes along with that. (If dress had no effect on your own confidence, business professionals wouldn't value the 'power suit' so highly!). I doubt she is actually trying to show off cleavage or look sexy for other people. You are probably just not used to her wearing anything that accentuates her figure, and if you are married to a woman who still has a figure, believe me, EVERYTHING highlights the female body except baggy t-shirts and sweats. It really is okay for good LDS women to wear things except baggy capris and their husbands' t-shirts. I live in Utah County and I see a lot of Mormon wives who don't take care of themselves and it really hurts their self-esteem as well as the image of the Church.

P.S. If she is well-endowed there really is nothing you can do about cleavage. I have a relative who is quite large up there and it's unavoidable. Sure, she can throw on a t-shirt that is three sizes too big, and maybe it hides her chest a bit, but then she also looks like, to use her words, "a fat cow."

P.P.S. Attention from other guys is highly variable. I hardly ever get catcalled when I'm out with my husband, dressed up in a nice outfit. I actually receive more lewd attention from guys when I'm frumping around in sweats. Some guys have a thing for women with a pretty face who look like they don't have self-esteem. I wonder if maybe you are more sensitive to the looks she gets now that her dress has changed.

I think there are some gems of wisdom in Starrynights post. Understanding others is always a good first step.

With this said, however, in a society that is obsessed with a "bigger-is-better" breast size mentality, I have always thought that Christian women who are larger up top have a moral imperative to work harder at being modest (and the same related to men). That might not be fair to women who are naturally larger – but I think it’s more of a duty.

I have also wondered, and observed, that if dressing modestly is more difficult for women who are larger up top because of the attention. This might be way off base, but maybe your wife has recently learned of how being larger up top can (sadly) command attention.

[Guest]

I think there are some gems of wisdom in Starrynights post. Understanding others is always a good first step.

With this said, however, in a society that is obsessed with a "bigger-is-better" breast size mentality, I have always thought that Christian women who are larger up top have a moral imperative to work harder at being modest (and the same related to men). That might not be fair to women who are naturally larger – but I think it’s more of a duty.

I have also wondered, and observed, that if dressing modestly is more difficult for women who are larger up top because of the attention. This might be way off base, but maybe your wife has recently learned of how being larger up top can (sadly) command attention.

Spoken like someone who doesn't have to go through life with a big chest.

[dash77]

Spoken like someone who doesn't have to go through life with a big chest.

Obviously, however, can you explain the error in my thinking?

[Guest]

Literally no one I know who has a large chest sees it as a positive thing. It is very hard and very expensive to find clothes that fit, flatter, and cover. For the most part I'm limited to baggy clothes that make me look much heavier than I am, or clothes that fit well but can be judged as immodest. I don't go for tight or low-cut, but I don't want to wear gunny sacks, either. Forget finding swimsuits, especially at a decent price. It can be rather demoralizing to be having a conversation with someone who you realize is staring at your chest, even though you are dressed modestly. And nevermind the people who assume things about big-chested women. It's not like I paid for them.

[Guest]

Oh, and exercise can be quite difficult just from a comfort standpoint. The extra attention is just an extra burr in the saddle.

[dash77]

Literally no one I know who has a large chest sees it as a positive thing. It is very hard and very expensive to find clothes that fit, flatter, and cover. For the most part I'm limited to baggy clothes that make me look much heavier than I am, or clothes that fit well but can be judged as immodest. I don't go for tight or low-cut, but I don't want to wear gunny sacks, either. Forget finding swimsuits, especially at a decent price. It can be rather demoralizing to be having a conversation with someone who you realize is staring at your chest, even though you are dressed modestly. And nevermind the people who assume things about big-chested women. It's not like I paid for them.

Eowyn:

Thanks for your reply.

In no way would I understand your situation and in no way do I want to undermine your feelings. Although I know it happens, I can’t imagine how demoralizing it must be for men to star at your chest while in conversation. Further, it sounds like you are conscious of your size and are demonstrating what my one post outlined – you are doing your best and going the extra mile not to bring attention to them. That is all I was suggesting.

But don’t you think there are some women – both members and non-members – who like the attention? And if so, don’t you think liking the extra attention could become a real temptation for some women (and so I do not seem sexist, I would say the same thing for men related to sexual attributes – but with men it more talk than an actual visual)?

[Guest]

I've come to loathe the problem so much that I'm probably not seeing it in a totally realistic way. So even though it's hard to imagine, yes, I suppose there are those women who do use it to their benefit. Like my friend who did buy herself a new set for her 40th birthday. :) I think within the church especially, though, it might be fewer than you think.

[slamjet]

I hope you know how hard it is to train one's self to NOT look down. It took me a while of forcing my eyes to stay up, but I now have a 99% success rate. I don't want a woman to walk away thinking I'm a major letch.

[ruthiechan]

I hope you know how hard it is to train one's self to NOT look down. It took me a while of forcing my eyes to stay up, but I now have a 99% success rate. I don't want a woman to walk away thinking I'm a major letch.

You know, the way some women dress I have a hard time not looking down.

[Backroads]

With this said, however, in a society that is obsessed with a "bigger-is-better" breast size mentality, I have always thought that Christian women who are larger up top have a moral imperative to work harder at being modest (and the same related to men). That might not be fair to women who are naturally larger – but I think it’s more of a duty.

A moral imperative?

So women with a D cup size have to dress like slobs?

[applepansy]

Eowyn:

Thanks for your reply.

In no way would I understand your situation and in no way do I want to undermine your feelings. Although I know it happens, I can’t imagine how demoralizing it must be for men to star at your chest while in conversation. Further, it sounds like you are conscious of your size and are demonstrating what my one post outlined – you are doing your best and going the extra mile not to bring attention to them. That is all I was suggesting.

But don’t you think there are some women – both members and non-members – who like the attention? And if so, don’t you think liking the extra attention could become a real temptation for some women (and so I do not seem sexist, I would say the same thing for men related to sexual attributes – but with men it more talk than an actual visual)?

I think women who live with a large chest actually have the opposite reaction. They want less attention!! You are coming from a perspective that is assuming a lot and placing a burden on a group of women who are already burdened.

EDIT: I'm not talking about the group who pay for breast augmentation.... and even then sometimes those women find that the grass looked greener on the other side of the fence.

Edited August 5, 2011 by applepansy

[applepansy]

Why not make a personal visit to your Bishop?

Explain your concerns and feelings to him and ask for priesthood advice?

Perhaps she would react differently if the advice were coming from him rather than you?

As for swimwear, I've had it pointed out to me that often it is a case of either being unable to find or being unable to afford a more modest alternative. To aid in the first I offer said alternative.

Is she intentionally seeking out attention of other men? Is this a form of exhibitionism? I don't know.

A question I would however have for you is how often do you two attend the temple?

While said question of course must needs take into consideration whether or not you have a temple nearby, it is never the less relevant.

If at all possible, I expect, a weekly endowment/sealing session with your wife will work wonders.

You've got to be kidding with that website. I can buy a Tshirt and shorts cheaper than $150 at Walmart. There are modest swimsuits that look like swimsuits. If you can't keep your eyes in your head unless a woman wears a Tshirt and shorts at the beach the problem is with you.

[Iggy]

I have a little problem I'd like some input on.

My wife and I disagree on what clothing is modest. She likes to wear clothing that's a little tight fitting and revealing in form and cleavage. Same with swim wear. She wears a one piece but it's low cut and revealing in the front.

It makes me uncomfortable to be with her if she's wearing this type of clothing/swim wear. I've talked to her about this but those discussions go badly because we disagree on what's modest.

So after years of this I feel like I've given up on resolving it. If we're going somewhere and she puts on clothes that make me uncomfortable I usually just clam up and avoid her if possible. For example if she suggests going swimming I will look for excuses not to be able to go but if I can't get out of it I'll just figure out ways to stay away from her at the pool. She notices and says something but she just thinks I need to get over it.

I don't care what she does or how she dresses when I'm not around. It only bothers me when I'm with her and I see other guys checking her out.

Are you embarrassed rather than uncomfortable? Embarrassed by the reaction you have when she wears clothing that does not cover her to the neck?

Are you embarrassed by the reaction you think other men are having to her?

Have you told her specifically that you are embarrassed?

I have a different situation- my husband is big, heavy, over 100 lbs. overweight. He has lost nearly 100 lbs, thus his pants and BELT are too big. He f l a t out refuses to cut the extra off of his belt. There is at least 12" hanging. He won't put the extra into the belt loops- makes getting his pants undone a real ordeal. Also, he won't quit wearing his too large pants. He looks like an elephant from behind- an elephant who is sickly and lost weight!

His reason for not cutting the excess off the belt: "Do you know just how MUCH this belt cost me? It wasn't cheap by any means!" My response: "Do you know how STUPID you look with over 12' of belt hanging and flapping? You definitely got your moneys worth-a dozen times over."

As for the overly large pants-"What if I keep loosing weight? I would have spent all that money on new pants, just to have them be too big also." My response-"How many times have your pants slid to your ankles,even with your belt on? - Even if you continue to lose more weight pants are not that expensive that we can not purchase ones that FIT you. The way you dress embarrasses me. At least when we go to Church or out to a restaurant will you PLEASE wear the new belt I bought you, and the pants that are NOT 3 sizes too big!?" ((note: belts ARE expensive- so are ties that are long enough for him!))

At home, or when we go shopping or just driving around, he wears his sloppy clothes. To Church and to Restaurants, he wears his better clothes.

I had two Sunday outfits that he felt did not flatter me. One I absolutely loved, it was so comfortable and I didn't think it was unflattering. BUT I quit wearing them. Later, a girl friend commented that she was glad I quit wearing my favorite one, as the color was so unflattering. As for the second outfit, it made me look like an elephant walking on it's hind feet.

For 25 years my first husband insisted that I wear tight, revealing clothes. I did- and I was uncomfortable. Yes, men looked at me. Ogled and leered. That just fueled my 1st husbands jealousy and anger. (talk about mixed signals!!) The tight jeans hurt my hips and upper legs too. So now I wear loose and comfortable clothes. NO zippers, just elastic waists. And after six years in AZ, I am no longer comfortable with to the ankle pants or skirts. I like them about 2 to 6 inches above the ankles. They are cooler!

[Backroads]

Why not make a personal visit to your Bishop?

Explain your concerns and feelings to him and ask for priesthood advice?

Perhaps she would react differently if the advice were coming from him rather than you?

A question I would however have for you is how often do you two attend the temple?

While said question of course must needs take into consideration whether or not you have a temple nearby, it is never the less relevant.

If at all possible, I expect, a weekly endowment/sealing session with your wife will work wonders.

I hope this doesn't sound awful, but I work with two bishops and...

they have bigger problems to deal with in the ward than people who are unable to speak to their spouses about their clothing. If it's a serious communication problem, by all means, seek out the bishop.

But as for the bishop telling the wife what she can and can't wear... I would be extremely offended if my bishop came up to me like that.

And while we all support going to the temple... how is that going to directly solve a clothing problem?

[dash77]

I think women who live with a large chest actually have the opposite reaction. They want less attention!! You are coming from a perspective that is assuming a lot and placing a burden on a group of women who are already burdened.

EDIT: I'm not talking about the group who pay for breast augmentation.... and even then sometimes those women find that the grass looked greener on the other side of the fence.

OK -- but do you think there are some women who like the attention? I know there are some women who have large breasts that do not want the attention (having an extra burden) and some that desperately wish they were smaller.

But are there some women who like the attention? And could there be some women who actually like to be gazed on, and as such, having larger breasts could pose as a temptation for them to dress less modetly? I am not making a generlaization that all women are like this -- but can there be some and can the OP's wife possible be afflicted with this?

[Backroads]

OK -- but do you think there are some women who like the attention? I know there are some women who have large breasts that do not want the attention (having an extra burden) and some that desperately wish they were smaller.

But are there some women who like the attention? And could there be some women who actually like to be gazed on, and as such, having larger breasts could pose as a temptation for them to dress less modetly? I am not making a generlaization that all women are like this -- but can there be some and can the OP's wife possible be afflicted with this?

Are these women who like the attention the rule?

The OP's wife very well could be one of these women. Or she could not. The information I've been given makes me think it's more likely a perception problem.

[dash77]

I've come to loathe the problem so much that I'm probably not seeing it in a totally realistic way. So even though it's hard to imagine, yes, I suppose there are those women who do use it to their benefit. Like my friend who did buy herself a new set for her 40th birthday. :) I think within the church especially, though, it might be fewer than you think.

Eowyn:

I agree with what you are saying and I agree that within the church, I think more women who are larger up top do not try to show off.

However, I am just wondering if the OP's wife changed 5 years ago after she worked with another woman who did dress immodestly, due to the fact that she learned that there are men (more non-LDS, but some LDS) that like to look and perhaps she learned that being gazed at is a fun and exciting thing.

I think there are some women who are rasied in the church who dress modestly that learn later in life that dressing immodestly can be a real sinful thrill.

Its just a thought and I might be way off base.

[dash77]

Are these women who like the attention the rule?

The OP's wife very well could be one of these women. Or she could not. The information I've been given makes me think it's more likely a perception problem.

Backroads:

Please explain -- how do you see this as a perception problem?

[pam]

Okay..who went and did it? Who got dash77 started on the breast debate again? :)

[Backroads]

Backroads:

Please explain -- how do you see this as a perception problem?

By all accounts, it sounds like her garments are being covered. Granted, that's not the only qualification for modesty. The OP stated he and his wife could not agree on what was modest. Clearly she thinks she's being modest. That shows me there is a perception problem.

Once again, no woman wants to wear baggy clothes. Most well-fitting women's clothing attempt to be some degree of form-fitting.

[applepansy]

OK -- but do you think there are some women who like the attention? I know there are some women who have large breasts that do not want the attention (having an extra burden) and some that desperately wish they were smaller.

But are there some women who like the attention? And could there be some women who actually like to be gazed on, and as such, having larger breasts could pose as a temptation for them to dress less modetly? I am not making a generlaization that all women are like this -- but can there be some and can the OP's wife possible be afflicted with this?

Yes, I'm sure there are SOME women who want the attention. There are many many more who don't. You won't hear about them because they don't call attention to themselves.

Why are you calling more attention to the few?

[dash77]

By all accounts, it sounds like her garments are being covered. Granted, that's not the only qualification for modesty. The OP stated he and his wife could not agree on what was modest. Clearly she thinks she's being modest. That shows me there is a perception problem.

Once again, no woman wants to wear baggy clothes. Most well-fitting women's clothing attempt to be some degree of form-fitting.

I have heard from a number of LDS women that there are women who purposely purchase larger garmnts, so they can reveal more cleavage.

With that said, I agree with you that women who do not want to wear baggy clothes should not and to some degree normative clothing can be form-fitting.

However, there is another side to the story that does not always get explained.

[dash77]

Yes, I'm sure there are SOME women who want the attention. There are many many more who don't. You won't hear about them because they don't call attention to themselves.

Why are you calling more attention to the few?

Applepans:

The point I am trying to make is a simply one. I think there are many LDS women who follow modest dress standards throughout their youth and early adulthood life (which is a great thing) that later learn that drawing attention to breasts can be thrilling. I am simply wondered if this is what happened with the OP’s wife. I might be way off base. Sadly, our society is obsessed with size and I think some women who are larger up top can be more tempted toward this thrilling action. It is not something I am supporting and a good portion of the blame should fall on men who also have a temptation in looking.

Where I might differ with you is that in the everyday world I do not see women who draw attention to this part of their body as “few.” I see it becoming more and more pervasive, through TV shows, breast implant cosmetic surgery, talk, and so forth. A year or two ago MSNBC ran an article outlining that breast implants were becoming a highly valued and popular high school graduation present from parents. So I do not see it as “few.”

I see the “the few” as outstanding LDS women who dress modestly, regardless of size and those women who are larger trying to some degree to go the extra mile not to attract a gaze. But that going the extra mile does not mean extraordinary and normative silliness attempts, such as always wearing baggy clothes. Women who are naturally large did not do anything to affect their size, they should not be punished or ashamed, but they should be a little more thoughtful related to dress.

One additional thought. If there are a few LDS women who draw attention to this part of their body, they can be a temptation to other women by sharing their experiences, or through simply observation. With this said, I am not suggesting to condemn such women or banish them, but they can draw more women (and men) toward a certain type of temptation. So there can be fair-minded concerns. But church is about accepting all people and we are all sinner trying to help each other – I do not want to sound like I am condemning such women.

[Backroads]

I have heard from a number of LDS women that there are women who purposely purchase larger garmnts, so they can reveal more cleavage.

With that said, I agree with you that women who do not want to wear baggy clothes should not and to some degree normative clothing can be form-fitting.

However, there is another side to the story that does not always get explained.

And has been asked, why are you condemning all woman based on what some do? I can't go around stalking all the LDS women in the world to make sure they dress modestly. I have my own salvation to worry about.

The problem with this thread is we only get the husband's side.

[dash77]

And has been asked, why are you condemning all woman based on what some do? I can't go around stalking all the LDS women in the world to make sure they dress modestly. I have my own salvation to worry about.

The problem with this thread is we only get the husband's side.

Backroads:

Explain how I am condeming? In the post right above yours (#48) I am trying to not be condeming and outline this. Perhpas I am missing something in my conduct, please explain.