Modesty dilema

[dash77]

I haven't read the study yet, but qualitative research is intended to do one of two things. It may either show the details of a sub-population that the author feels accurately describes the experience of other similar sub populations (such as writing a book about drug dealers in Chicago and suggesting the concepts apply to drug dealers in New York City).

Alternatively, it may describe the experience of a varied group to show how the players in that group contrast with each other. The intent is to give a battery of experiences and insights into the different ways people within that sub-population handle a common issue.

In the study you cite, I suspect the latter case is what the authors intended. If such is the case, the research is making the assumption that the responses to large-breastedness are going to be different, but that the 8 women are representative of all of the ways to respond to the issue. You seem to be focusing on just one or two of the responses--not surprisingly, the ones that support your point of view.

What's my point....how women respond to have large breasts is an individualized response (and probably inconsistent over time). I think you unfairly try to boil it down to just a common response.

Margin of error:

Thanks for a thoughtful reply.

I think you have provided a fairly good summary of qualitative research. Although there are different types of qualitative research, in general its focus is on a small group of people to understand real life meaning and experiences, to give us insights into other cultural groups (such as the cultural group of women who have large breasts). And you are correct that this study underscores that there are some women who have larger breasts that do take pleasure in them and illustrates a sense of femininity status (“better-than” and others can be “less-than”). It also underscores the brutal reality that some women go through at the hands of men (sexual harassment) and sometimes other women. No statistics are used in qualitative research because such research does not believe in broad based generalizability.

I am not using this study to make broad based generalizations. I am citing this study as evidence to underscore that there are some women who are larger up top that like to show off, to support my view that the OP’s wife could be a woman who learned about the enjoyment of the gaze later in life. I am just suggesting a plausible explanation.

With that said, I am also suggesting that women with larger breasts should take a little extra time to try to dress more modestly.

I agree with you that women should have a right to dress how they want and it does become individualized. However, we do not live in vacuums and our individual actions has a societal consequence also and I think more people should think about how their individual actions affect others, rather than just being focus on themselves.

[Jenamarie]

Margin of error:

Thanks for a thoughtful reply.

I think you have provided a fairly good summary of qualitative research. Although there are different types of qualitative research, in general its focus is on a small group of people to understand real life meaning and experiences, to give us insights into other cultural groups (such as the cultural group of women who have large breasts). And you are correct that this study underscores that there are some women who have larger breasts that do take pleasure in them and illustrates a sense of femininity status (“better-than” and others can be “less-than”). It also underscores the brutal reality that some women go through at the hands of men (sexual harassment) and sometimes other women. No statistics are used in qualitative research because such research does not believe in broad based generalizability.

I am not using this study to make broad based generalizations. I am citing this study as evidence to underscore that there are some women who are larger up top that like to show off, to support my view that the OP’s wife could be a woman who learned about the enjoyment of the gaze later in life. I am just suggesting a plausible explanation.

With that said, I am also suggesting that women with larger breasts should take a little extra time to try to dress more modestly. I agree with you that women should have a right to dress how they want and it does become individualized. However, we do not live in vacuums and our individual actions has a societal consequence also and I think more people should think about how their individual actions affect others, rather than just being focus on themselves.

But why? Why the added onus on large breasted women to dress *more* modestly than their smaller breasted peers? There's nothing inherently immoral about larger chests. And perhaps being a guy, you don't understand how difficult it is to conceal or minimize the appearance of a larger chest.

[estradling75]

But why? Why the added onus on large breasted women to dress *more* modestly than their smaller breasted peers? There's nothing inherently immoral about larger chests. And perhaps being a guy, you don't understand how difficult it is to conceal or minimize the appearance of a larger chest.

It might have been better phrased as it takes more effort for women with the larger ones to have the same level of modestly as women with smaller ones. The level of modesty doesn't change, but the effort does, do to simple physics.

[dash77]

It might have been better phrased as it takes more effort for women with the larger ones to have the same level of modestly as women with smaller ones. The level of modesty doesn't change, but the effort does, do to simple physics.

Very well said!

[Backroads]

A couple of thoughts.

Below, in the link, is a research study published in the Women’s Study International Forum that interviewed 8 large breasted women about their daily experiences. What is clear in this study are two things. First, the real life difficulties that women go through that are larger up top and how brutally abusive men can be so such women. Second, and what I am trying to get at, is how these women found pleasure in being larger up top and how some purposely wore clothing to flaunt their femininity – thus illustrating that are “better than” women who have smaller breasts (feminine credibility). One of the women clear communicates that her confidence goes up when she knows she is being gazed on. The article is a good qualitative study, however, there is one quotation of a women with some swear words. I believe the researcher put this in so readers can learn about real world experiences – but the F word is used – so a word of caution.

ScienceDirect - Women’s Studies International Forum : Being large-breasted: women negotiating embodiment

My point is that I think that for some (not all) women having larger breasts can be a real temptation and a real sin because of the pleasure of knowing they may be more “feminine” than others. I can’t remember if I stated this in another post here or not, but even the words “I’m well endowed” highlight this – an endowment is a gift – meaning God has given women who are larger up to a gift. Imagaine how such statement can be hurtful to women who are smaller up top.

Backroads, you message above, which I quoted, makes sense to me. It is not immodest to have large breasts. But in my mind, it is immodest and not following gospel standards to show cleavage – your statement is that it’s immodest to flaunt lots of cleavage. As the two authors of this academic article outline – that breasts are integrated to a social, cultural, and political meaning – that is why in an earlier post I stated that I have always thought that Christian women who are larger up top have a moral imperative to work harder at being modest and I also stated the same related to men (I do not want to be sexiest). That might not be fair to women who are naturally larger – but I think it’s more of a duty. Just like a person who is rich should work, in my mind, as not to bring attention to this and just like person with advanced degrees should not try to exemplify this around others by using “higher-educated” language. Pride is about show one’s elevated status in society.

I am not suggesting that women with large breasts need to always wear burkas and huge clothing – I think some people are distorting my posts so they can attack the distorted areas they create. I also realize that half of this issue lies with men who have problems with women who have larger breasts, be it lust of other temptations/problems. Women who are naturally larger up top did not do anything to effect this. However, I am suggesting that women who have large breasts need to take some extra time to ensure they are not succumbing to a temptation to show off their bodies and need to take a little more time not to draw attention to them because of a societal reality. And I would suggest this is equally related to men also and body image, such as a man who is swollen with muscles who wants to show off his masculine credibility.

Thanks for this. I very well may have been taking your comments to the extreme.

However, you did have me thinking a little more. I took the liberty of highlighting what sparked my thoughts.

I do understand what you mean by women taking advantage of a larger chest size. I agree that is wrong. Yes, showing cleavage is immodest. I also found myself in swimming/lifeguarding situations where I had to remove my tanktop in order to get into the water to help a swimmer. Since I don't spend outrageous amounts of clothing on swimsuits (plus my staff swimsuits were given to me) I was probably showing a bit of cleavage.

My other thought is that yes, I like being "well-endowed". I like being curvy. I feel pretty, feminine, and yes, even sexy. While I could stand a little more exercise and toning, I do make an effort to take care of myself and for the most part I feel I have a beautiful and attractive body.

I don't think it's wrong to feel good about my body or to even feel that it's sexually attractive.

For clarification's sake... do you think it's wrong to be somewhat proud of an attractive body? Is it one or the other? Must we either be taking full advantage of our bodies to the level of immodesty or taking no pride in them at all?

[Backroads]

It might have been better phrased as it takes more effort for women with the larger ones to have the same level of modestly as women with smaller ones. The level of modesty doesn't change, but the effort does, do to simple physics.

Does modesty mean reducing the appearance of large breasts or simply not flaunting them?

Because I am getting the impression that large breasts = bad.

[slamjet]

Does modesty mean reducing the appearance of large breasts or simply not flaunting them?

Because I am getting the impression that large breasts = bad.

Large breasts = no different than small breast. I've seen not so well endowed women who flaunt it even more than large breasted women. Quite frankly, I think this whole threat has crossed the line into major over-analyzing to the point of paranoia.

If you have large breast, and you're modest (covering your garments) and some cleavage shows, then discussion is over, you're modest and there may not be a whole lot you can do about it. You're living the law of modesty, now it's high time for everyone else live the law of chastity and keep their minds clean. I really think that this whole thing about large = greater immodesty is in the eye of the one staring. It's a complete farce.

I'd like someone to come out and say that the medium to small breasted women in church who wear lower cut blouses are being modest because they are not showing any cleavage. I'd smack them and tell them to get real.

[dash77]

Backroads:

Thank you for an equally thought provoking reply.

In no way did I even want to suggest that a woman with larger breasts should feel they are bad.

Sadly, our society glorifies they “bigger-is-better” in many ears 9such as cars, house), and also on sexual attributes of body image. I do not think anyone should feel bad about feeling good about their body -- as long as it does not become prideful or extreme.

The issue at hand in this post is related to modesty and (sadly) because there is a cultural and social reality to body image and breast size, the reality is that women who have a certain body image do get privileges. There are many studies that demonstrate that men and women with a certain body image (Barbie doll image on the female side) do get more privileges in life, such as better jobs and more male dating interest. Knowing this, I think a Christian woman who may have more Barbie doll body chrematistics should act more ethical and should spend more time reflecting regarding how she should handle herself. I would argue the same related o men and body image privileging. For example, I think a woman who has larger breast need to take more time and be more burdened to find a swimsuit that is not as revealing – but not to become so obsessed with modest that they will not go to pools or wear something ridiculous on the modesty side. But because in American society there is a real sad, sinful and even disease oriented view that bigger is better, such women need to take extra precious – just like a man should in similar situations related to sexual attributes/body image (the male chest or abs can also be sexualized). But I do not think there is anything wrong with a woman in the privacy of her home or in marriage to feel good about her body – we all should.

The sad part is due to competition, so many men and women compare body images and sadly we have a hierarchy that really does against God’s view of our bodies and we should all be focus on celebrating a health body, rather than a attractive body (a health woman should have about 20-25% body fat). Men should be more attracted, and women should desire, a health body, rather than a Barbie doll image that is more or less pretty fake in everyday life.

Last thing, I am not here to say I am right and you are wrong, I have also learned from such posts and hove come to realize that women who have large breasts due have extra social burdens, such as the humiliation, sexual objectifying views, and control issues of men. I appreciate your thoughts because it helps me understand this issue a bit better.

Slamjet:

If you think this thread is over-analyzing to the state of paranoia, with restful, I would suggest you simply do not participate in it. I have found it a learning experience because I have an interest and a job that is related to understanding body image and human sexuality.

With this said, I agree with you that it’s not just women with large breasts that who can act immodesty, but as the research article I cited outlines, there is a sad and pathetic cultural discourse that does celebrate bigger-is-better and because of this reality, it does create different realities amount women and men. I agree with you we all need to live the law of chastity and the standards of modest.

[slamjet]

Slamjet:

If you think this thread is over-analyzing to the state of paranoia, with restful, I would suggest you simply do not participate in it.

I do believe that you accusing me of over-analyzing is quite humorous since it is you who began this whole notion of "bigger = immodest" and had put out the blanket statement "I have always thought that Christian women who are larger up top have a moral imperative to work harder at being modest." Then you post "I think there are many LDS women who follow modest dress standards throughout their youth and early adulthood life (which is a great thing) that later learn that drawing attention to breasts can be thrilling." Then that is followed by this posting "It is not immodest to have large breasts. But in my mind, it is immodest and not following gospel standards to show cleavage.."

And to make it even better, you followed up that with this "Women who are naturally larger up top did not do anything to effect this. However, I am suggesting that women who have large breasts need to take some extra time to ensure they are not succumbing to a temptation to show off their bodies and need to take a little more time not to draw attention to them because of a societal reality. And I would suggest this is equally related to men also and body image, such as a man who is swollen with muscles who wants to show off his masculine credibility."

As though having large breasts are a choice, rather than what a woman is genetically born with.

And then there is that "research" you posted that wasn't. It was a paper testing the waters to see if research is warranted.

All my posts have been to get you down to the real world and not the myopic view that you have been espousing. Backroads said it best when she said this about your posts "You continually jump to the pandemic of a few women." If anyone is over-analyzing it is you. So please stop deflecting and please, don't ever tell me to not post on an open forum. It's childish.

[Backroads]

Backroads:

But I do not think there is anything wrong with a woman in the privacy of her home or in marriage to feel good about her body – we all should.

I'll clarify that my earlier post was not referring to feeling good about our bodies in the privacy of marriages/homes. We all should have the right to feel good about our bodies all the time, public or private. In no way should the self-confidence be reserved for homes and marriages.

Now, if you mean we have the right to be a little more sexy and whatnot in a marriage in a home, then yes, I full-heartedly agree with you.

But I believe I do have the right to appreciate my body at all times. I believe I have the right to look good whether I'm at home with my husband or at work or at the grocery store. I think it's a worthy goal to want to be attractive and moderately proud of my body at all times--not being immodest, but still taking some reasonable pride in my body. I believe it is quite possible to be publicly attractive, feminine, and modest at the same time.

[dash77]

I do believe that you accusing me of over-analyzing is quite humorous since it is you who began this whole notion of "bigger = immodest" and had put out the blanket statement "I have always thought that Christian women who are larger up top have a moral imperative to work harder at being modest." Then you post "I think there are many LDS women who follow modest dress standards throughout their youth and early adulthood life (which is a great thing) that later learn that drawing attention to breasts can be thrilling." Then that is followed by this posting "It is not immodest to have large breasts. But in my mind, it is immodest and not following gospel standards to show cleavage.."

And to make it even better, you followed up that with this "Women who are naturally larger up top did not do anything to effect this. However, I am suggesting that women who have large breasts need to take some extra time to ensure they are not succumbing to a temptation to show off their bodies and need to take a little more time not to draw attention to them because of a societal reality. And I would suggest this is equally related to men also and body image, such as a man who is swollen with muscles who wants to show off his masculine credibility."

As though having large breasts are a choice, rather than what a woman is genetically born with.

And then there is that "research" you posted that wasn't. It was a paper testing the waters to see if research is warranted.

All my posts have been to get you down to the real world and not the myopic view that you have been espousing. Backroads said it best when she said this about your posts "You continually jump to the pandemic of a few women." If anyone is over-analyzing it is you. So please stop deflecting and please, don't ever tell me to not post on an open forum. It's childish.

Slamjet:

I think you are missing my point, but it may be due to a misspelled word on my part. I do not think you are over-analyzing. However, you have stated that "this whole threat has crossed the line into major over-analyzing to the point of paranoia" -- then I would respectfully suggest you do not participate in it.

I find this thread helpful and it has helped me understanding modesty and some of the burdens that some women may experience. I have no desire to get into some type of protracted debate with you.

[dash77]

I'll clarify that my earlier post was not referring to feeling good about our bodies in the privacy of marriages/homes. We all should have the right to feel good about our bodies all the time, public or private. In no way should the self-confidence be reserved for homes and marriages.

Now, if you mean we have the right to be a little more sexy and whatnot in a marriage in a home, then yes, I full-heartedly agree with you.

But I believe I do have the right to appreciate my body at all times. I believe I have the right to look good whether I'm at home with my husband or at work or at the grocery store. I think it's a worthy goal to want to be attractive and moderately proud of my body at all times--not being immodest, but still taking some reasonable pride in my body. I believe it is quite possible to be publicly attractive, feminine, and modest at the same time.

Backroads:

I agree and I think you are spot on. In my mind, the key is being modest and I agree that a women (or a man) can be modest and pleased with how they look. But modesty and having the law of chastity in our minds and hearts -- both in preventing people gazing on a body and others who want to gaze -- is the key.

[ADoyle90815]

Unless the church starts paying for reduction surgery for anyone with large breasts, then it's still considered modest if the temple garments are completely covered, even if no matter what shirt she wears, there's a hint of cleavage. If a woman tries to hide her breasts by wearing shirts that are several sizes too big, then she looks like she doesn't care how she looks. As someone mentioned earlier, women who wear baggy sweats get more cat calls than someone who is wearing a sleeved shirt with a hint of cleavage. Obviously the church isn't going to start insisting on burkas anytime soon, as they consider the temple garment being covered to be modest enough.

[slamjet]

Unless the church starts paying for reduction surgery for anyone with large breasts, then it's still considered modest if the temple garments are completely covered, even if no matter what shirt she wears, there's a hint of cleavage. If a woman tries to hide her breasts by wearing shirts that are several sizes too big, then she looks like she doesn't care how she looks. As someone mentioned earlier, women who wear baggy sweats get more cat calls than someone who is wearing a sleeved shirt with a hint of cleavage. Obviously the church isn't going to start insisting on burkas anytime soon, as they consider the temple garment being covered to be modest enough.

Opps, you don't agree with Dash, you continue to tell him otherwise, you are not permitted to post in this thread because he doesn't want to get into a protracted debate. At least that's what is posted.

It's incredible that some people cannot agree to disagree.

[Guest]

Wait, the Church is paying for reductions now? Who do I talk to? The RS President? Ward clerk? Interview with the bishop?

[Backroads]

Wait, the Church is paying for reductions now? Who do I talk to? The RS President? Ward clerk? Interview with the bishop?

Most awkward bishop meeting. Ever.

Seriously, what about people who don't mind big breasts? I am getting a vibe from this thread that being larger than a b cup is a tragedy that cannot be helped.

[Spartan117]

I am getting a vibe from this thread that being larger than a b cup is a tragedy that cannot be helped.

So I'll just have to buy new shirts then?

[ruthiechan]

I recall seeing a lady in Sacrament meeting bending to get something out of her baby's diaper bag, and boy did that show off a lot of cleavage. I remember thinking she needed to dress modestly. Then she sat up and her shirt was COMPLETELY above her breasts. No cleavage showing whatsoever. Was it immodest for her to bend down to get something? The only way for her to not show *ANY* cleavage when bending over in her seat was to wear a turtleneck, which would be a ridiculous requirement. She's not fat, she's just busty. That's not her fault. Anyone faulting her for this would be in error.

Women can do their part to keep modest, I am all for that. Women need to dress in a manner that does not further accentuate their sexual bits (private moments with the spouse excepted). HOWEVER, men need to do their part too! After all, men can't control what worldly women wear, and they can't control a woman's bust size. They can only control themselves.

[dash77]

I think there have been many helpful posts. But back to the original question -- can others see, or do I make sense, suggesting that perhaps the OP's wife may have learned later in life to like being gazed upon? And can larger breasts contribute to this and can women who are larger up top make a little extra effort to de-emphasize this (not to become ridiculous, though related to modesty).

[Suzie]

I am getting a vibe from this thread that being larger than a b cup is a tragedy that cannot be helped.

Liars, specially if they are men saying it.

[dash77]

Liars, specially if they are men saying it.

I do not know if this is true, Suzie!!

[Suzie]

I do not know if this is true, Suzie!!

Yeah....men love flat chested women.

Offtopic: Did you see your smilie?

http://www.lds.net/forums/general-discussion/41294-emoticon-game-6.html

[dash77]

Yeah....men love flat chested women.

Some men do because they can see what is behind them as more important -- the heart of a women!!!

[Suzie]

Some men do because they can see what is behind them as more important -- the heart of a women!!!

Big boobs won't prevent you from seeing the heart of a woman eh....

[MarginOfError]

Some men do because they can see what is behind them as more important -- the heart of a women!!!

I can honestly say that I have never found myself attracted to a woman's heart.