Men & Women: The differences

[Hala401]

Yeah, really. Add to that the other factor of what is brought into the equation from the spiritual nature of the person. We know that the spiritual nature of a person doesn't match the body traits, for example, in a person born with Down's etc. I think that applies to all of us in some amount, probably more than we realize. So, we can't even separate what is an earthly trait from an eternal one.

It is my devout and humble hope that binary thinking will eventually die a natural death. I toured the local rose garden the other day and there are so many variations in roses that it is impossible for me to categorize them.

Most of us are comfortably ignorant using the male female binary model, but in reality, there are an infinite number of statistical variations around the norm. It is a source of great comfort to me that our church accepts variation without over spiritualizing about them.

[Vort]

It is my devout and humble hope that binary thinking will eventually die a natural death.

Either it will or it won't. End of story.

[Hala401]

I watch a lot of HGTV where they have quite a few female carpenters who do wonderful work. As a female working in that field of construction all of those years, do you feel you were respected for the work you did or do you feel that they didn't think you could do as good of a job?

Actually, there are several levels to the job of being an electrician. On the physical side, I wish I had let the guys do a lot more of the phycial stuff, instead of having to find I couldn't do it and then let them.

An electrician must know the law, and Oregon is one of the toughest states for law. I mostly knew more than them, and because of my nature, we mostly obeyed it. It costs less to do it right the first time than the second.

There is then the courage/common sense side. In the morning when I got up, I made my mind up that no man was going to disgrace me on the job. That was very hard. After about 15 years on the job, it came up that I was often the boss. But sometimes, I was so afraid for the people working for me, that I mothered them through some work that I saw as potentially really dangerous. There are dishwasher sized switches that need to be pulled out, and pushed in to live 12,500 volt circuits and I was terribly, terribly frightened of them. I have actually walked into a vault after an outtage to find one of them pushed out and still smoking. That is not supposed to be possible.

Perhaps all that stress is what eventually led to my leaving the job under clouded circumstances. I worked at the trade for 32 years.

It has been a whole process to learn to be more like the women around me. With my looks and genetics, I would have never been prom queen, but at my age, most other women don't look much better.

To answer your original question, men are men, and I was so ugly that there was not a lot of harassment, even if I would have wanted some. :)

[Guest]

My dad was an electrician. It was hard work, crawling through sweltering attics and reaching a lot and all of those things. He came home very tired every day. He was also ill my whole childhood, though. I don't think he ever worked with any beauty queens.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Eowyn

[Iggy]

When I worked at the local True Value Hardware store, I was in charge of the Electrical, Plumbing and Sporting goods aisles.

In the electrical I had to be very careful in what I told to DIY'ers. I could not explain to them in detail how to replace the plug to their lamp. I could however give them the tiny little paper of instructions, tell them to go to the grocery store, have this paper enlarged enough to read it, and follow the instructions.

One extremely busy summer afternoon of helping customers in the electrical department, I finally told one customer that if he was paying $125.00 an hour to the electrician who was sitting at his house, drinking lemonade with his wife, while he - the customer- was down here getting the supplies, then by golly I would take the job for half the price and do a better job of it!

He got the message. He went straight home, fired the electrician and hired one who actually went and purchased the correct parts!

After my outburst- a man came up to me and asked me if I was serious about becoming an electrician? I just looked at him. Becoming one? I put in all new light switches, and outlets in my own home. Put in all new ceiling and wall light fixtures and porch lights. I went to the landfill and picked up lamps that had been tossed - totally rewired them, cleaned them up, painted some & bought new shades and gave them away to those who needed them. Did I have to get licensed to do that????

He wanted me to apprentice under/with him- after I went through the classes that he taught at Chemekada in Corvallis OR. Had I been separated/divorced at that time, I would have jumped at it.

I had more leeway in the plumbing department. There were no local plumbers who felt threatened by my knowledge in assisting the DIY'rs. I also put in all new drain pipes under the bathroom and kitchen sinks- along with all new faucets for both in every home I lived in. One local plumber wanted me to work for him, he had lost his leg and needed someone who could get under the sinks. Unfortunately, he also wanted me to go under houses- couldn't do that. Don't know the fancy name for that paranoia- but combine that with absolute terror of spiders, vermin and closed in spaces!!

Oh, By The Way, this True Value store was owned and run by a Woman. She only hired women. Her Husband helped on freight days, and during the summer she hired two high school boys to operate the hyster and load the heavy bags of soil amendments. For 12 years in a row, this woman had the highest profit ratings than any other True Value in the West Coast Region. She ran out of wall room in her office and our break room to put her plaques.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Iggy

[Guest]

Considering there is plenty of debate on what is born in and what is culturally taught no way I can disagree. Or agree.

The debate is not that there are differences. That's a given. The debate is in what characteristics of a person determine to what gender a person belongs in. For example, if he displays more feminine traits but have the male genitalia - is he male or female?

[Traveler]

In general I believe there are a great many things in which women are better than men and vise versa. With that said - I do not know of much if anything that all women are better at than any man - and vise versa.

If there is something good to be done and you are able to do it - I see no reason that an individual's sex should be the engine of action to get it done.

I am also sure that no individual man or woman (or even multiple men or women) can do a better job in raising children in such a manner to garentee the survival of the society of mankind than a man and woman working together.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

The debate is not that there are differences. That's a given. The debate is in what characteristics of a person determine to what gender a person belongs in. For example, if he displays more feminine traits but have the male genitalia - is he male or female?

That is the point I was trying to make that even with that approach of trying to figure out "what are the characteristics?" Depends on how much of that individual's spirit shines through the characteristics of the body. And that we don't know. What if it turns out that only 0.002% of our spiritual traits shine through in what we call our "characteristics"? Then, even if one were to come up with that list of characteristics all really one is describing, at least mostly (99.998% or whatever the number is) describing are the traits of that body and that brain. We still aren't pointing out the differences between spiritual, eternal traits and those found in this corrupted temporary set of traits.

Because we have no ability to see those spiritual traits clearly, for the same reason we can't judge others, there is no way to really come up with those characteristics, we will have to wait until the next life to see them clearly.

It all depends on how far a person thinks Adam and Eve fell, how much we have fallen from our pre-mortal state. I guess some people think that we didn't fall very far which is inversely proportional to how much we need a Savior. I suppose if we didn't really fall that far then our earthly characteristics would more closely resemble our spiritual self. I tend to think that we fell very very far from our spiritual traits that would reflect the chance to develop to maturity in the presence of God for thousands if not an unthinkable amount of years. I really hope that my current set of traits does not represent what I learned and developed over thousands and thousands of years ... talk about remedial class.

[Dove]

I had a beautiful and inspired experience last Sunday while the Sacrament was being passed in Sacrament meeting.....In our ward we have no "youth" to pass the sacrament, so it is passed by adult males.

As I watched these righteous, priesthood bearing men pass the bread and water so reverently, I was struck by how beautiful they looked to me...It was an honor to be able to watch them in their righteousness as they administered the emblems of our baptismal covenants.

I felt such a yearning to be able to renew my baptismal covenants by taking the Sacrament again....I have been inactive for many years and, at this point, am not worthy to do so. I felt the Spirit strongly during this particular sacrament and such a desire to become worthy to do so. It was wonderful to see the priesthood in action.

As I think about the ramifications of this thread and the perceived differences between men and women, I am reminded of the Savior's intercessory prayer, both in the New Testament and the Book of Mormon. In that prayer the Savior asks, at great length, that we become "one" with each other. IMO, I believe/hope that at some point the only difference between men and women will be the nature of their callings. For men, obviously, it is to hold the priesthood, be fathers, etc. For women, it is to bear and, with the fathers, raise up righteous people....Yes, there are obvious physical differences between men and women, for most of us. Also, our brains generally may be wired differently. However, anything beyond that veers into a lot of supposition and assigning traits that may or may not be true for the individual.

It's sad that our culture sexualizes woman soo much. I would like to be known and respected for my mind and the state of my heart. I struggle with feeling "heard" as a woman in our culture. Meaning, my .02 cents worth being listened to and respectfully considered~Which I perceive a lack of due to my gender. At times I feel it is an issue of ego/pride when a male does differently than this.

Regardless, I am coming to a profound awareness that God, the Father, does proffer this to me. He does hear and answer my prayers and the prayers of those around me. Many people have been praying for me lately. It is making a big difference in my life. I am soo grateful and am receiving a deeper witness of the power of prayer. I know God does always hear and listen.

Dove

[hopefulfaith]

I don't think that the problem that we women have is because we have differences from men, but because we are ruled over by men. It's hard to believe we are really equal when we are told that men rule over us.

I've had some thoughts about this and wanted to throw them out there to see what people think. These thoughts came to me while I was praying and struggling with this very topic and I wonder if these thoughts were inspiration from the spirit or just me wanting to find an explanation. Here is what came to me:

In the scriptures about Adam and Eve, Eve's punishment for eating the fruit was difficultly and pain in bearing children and her husband shall rule over her. Adam's punishment was the labor in working the land:

"16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. "

I've never believe that the pain in bearing children would be for all eternity and that the land being cursed for Adam wouldn't be forever either. I've always assumed those to be temporary punishments or maybe just earthly. So if those are just temporary then wouldn't you think that Eve's punishment about her husband ruling over her be temporary too? I started thinking that maybe there is something else to come for women (like Blacks and the priesthood). If men ruling over women in the church was a temporary punishment for Eve eating the fruit then I wonder how it will be after that punishment is removed?

[Hala401]

I don't think that the problem that we women have is because we have differences from men, but because we are ruled over by men. It's hard to believe we are really equal when we are told that men rule over us.

I've had some thoughts about this and wanted to throw them out there to see what people think. These thoughts came to me while I was praying and struggling with this very topic and I wonder if these thoughts were inspiration from the spirit or just me wanting to find an explanation. Here is what came to me:

In the scriptures about Adam and Eve, Eve's punishment for eating the fruit was difficultly and pain in bearing children and her husband shall rule over her. Adam's punishment was the labor in working the land:

"16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. "

I've never believe that the pain in bearing children would be for all eternity and that the land being cursed for Adam wouldn't be forever either. I've always assumed those to be temporary punishments or maybe just earthly. So if those are just temporary then wouldn't you think that Eve's punishment about her husband ruling over her be temporary too? I started thinking that maybe there is something else to come for women (like Blacks and the priesthood). If men ruling over women in the church was a temporary punishment for Eve eating the fruit then I wonder how it will be after that punishment is removed?

Wow, I really want to see what some of the more learned LDS have to say about that.

Having not been LDS very long, I pretty much just read the Bible and believe what it says. However, in my experience, I don' think LDS men really get into the "ruling over us" that much. I think I am pretty much treated like a princess. Our faith is not really into punishing us. In fact, I know The Articles Of Faith addresses that very pointedly.

I've been both a very fundamentalistic Evangelical, and a Muslim and know how women are blamed, but not in The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

[Traveler]

Wow, I really want to see what some of the more learned LDS have to say about that.

Having not been LDS very long, I pretty much just read the Bible and believe what it says. However, in my experience, I don' think LDS men really get into the "ruling over us" that much. I think I am pretty much treated like a princess. Our faith is not really into punishing us. In fact, I know The Articles Of Faith addresses that very pointedly.

I've been both a very fundamentalistic Evangelical, and a Muslim and know how women are blamed, but not in The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Under the covenant of the priesthood the act or responsibility to "rule" over anyone is in essence an act of service. The greatest in the kingdom of G-d is the servant of all. In the eyes of the world and many in religion the station of G-d is to be the boss of everything- the enforcer of one's will - but as demonstrated by Christ - to act as G-d is an act of compassion, love, sacrifice and service - even if it means forgoing one's will.

The Traveler

Edited June 26, 2012 by Traveler

[hopefulfaith]

Under the covenant of the priesthood the act or responsibility to "rule" over anyone is in essence an act of service. The greatest in the kingdom of G-d is the servant of all. In the eyes of the world and many in religion the station of G-d is to be the boss of everything- the enforcer of one's will - but as demonstrated by Christ - to act as G-d is an act of compassion, love, sacrifice and service - even if it means forgoing one's will.

The Traveler

The definition of "rule" is "Exercise ultimate power or authority over". The priesthood does have the ultimate power or authority over women and it's hard to feel equality when we are told that.

[estradling75]

Wow, I really want to see what some of the more learned LDS have to say about that.

The limits and boundary's of a man's priesthood authority can be found in Doctrine and Covenants 121 

Verses 34 to 44.

The problems come from when we over step these limits

[Dove]

There's no doubt, in my mind, that we have a patriarchal order.

There's no doubt, in my experience, that some men have really abused their gift of the priesthood in how they exercised unrighteous dominion.

Estradling, thank you for referencing the 121st section of the Doctrine and Covenants~It is the one caveat to all this in me living under the patriarchal order of the priesthood.

I think this puts the ball in the mens' court as to whether they'll honor their priesthood and treat woman with the pure love of Christ. I believe this is critical to them retaining their priesthood.

As far as I go as a woman, my part is to support righteous men in upholding their priesthood. The saying of Joseph Smith comes to mind. You can't have one without the other. It takes two pillars (men and women) to truly uphold the priesthood in righteousness.

[beefche]

Here is a good talk on how men "rule" (I think "preside" is a better word):

Crossing Thresholds and Becoming Equal Partners - Liahona Aug. 2007 - liahona

Also, look at the Proclamation on the Family. That gives a brilliant discourse on the interplay between husband/wife.

[Traveler]

The definition of "rule" is "Exercise ultimate power or authority over". The priesthood does have the ultimate power or authority over women and it's hard to feel equality when we are told that.

As a trained mathematician equal means identical and interchangeable. In truth men and women are not equal - they are not interchangeable. And as I posted before in this thread that the union of a man and women is greater that the some of their parts - in essence something greater than either of them is added to the union.

In the theory of mathematics is the concept of something being either equal to, or greater than or less then. Some feel that if two things are not equal then one must be greater than the other - that is the great error in thinking concerning men and women. So we call man and women equal since it is not true that one is greater than the other but in truth men and women are not equal nor is one greater than the other.

What makes men and women equal is what they are together.

As to rule - the world thinks to rule is to exercise absolute authority by force. That is not correct in the priesthood. A woman must give herself - that means that the rule cannot be by force and if a woman does not give herself - a man cannot rule. The covenant of the man is to serve and give service - to care and to provide and the woman to give herself to that care and provision. Think of how G-d rules through service, love and compassion.

The final concept that we need to understand is that a man and a woman become one - in the same way the Father and the Son are one. This means that they are one in responsibility - as with other things as well. It is this oneness that many come to think in terms of equal - but that equal or oneness is greater than either of the two.

In the years of my marriage my wife has taught me that I owe her - not because she is greater than me (which she is) but because she has made a greater sacrifice than I have. This is such a no win for me because the greater sacrifice I make to repay her the more she gives of herself to me. She will not let me rule over her as I should (be her servant) no matter how hard I try - she is always a step ahead giving more. How dare I think we are equal!!!

The Traveler

[Hala401]

The definition of "rule" is "Exercise ultimate power or authority over". The priesthood does have the ultimate power or authority over women and it's hard to feel equality when we are told that.

Well, I have only run into a couple of those barbarian ruler types. Mostly what I feel with the men is "protected". And, with some of the things they deal with, I am quite happy to have them to take care of them. This from a woman who spent most of her life working like a man. I am happy for the vacation. :)

[Leah]

The definition of "rule" is "Exercise ultimate power or authority over". The priesthood does have the ultimate power or authority over women and it's hard to feel equality when we are told that.

Is the terminology "ruling over" something you have chosen because the definition appeals to you, or have you seen that terminology used in LDS teaching and documents? I have never been taught that the men "rule over" the women in the church, so I would be curious to read the sources for that.

[hopefulfaith]

Well directing everyone back to the main point of my post.....about the punishment given to Adam and Eve...:)

So no one feels that that we are still living with the punishment that was given to Adam and Eve?? I think we are. Is it temporary for this earth's life? and if so what will change for women when Eve's punishments are removed?

"16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. "

[Vort]

Is the terminology "ruling over" something you have chosen because the definition appeals to you, or have you seen that terminology used in LDS teaching and documents? I have never been taught that the men "rule over" the women in the church, so I would be curious to read the sources for that.

hopefulfaith quoted the Bible (Gen 3:16-19) on this matter:

[To Eve] ...thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

[Traveler]

Well directing everyone back to the main point of my post.....about the punishment given to Adam and Eve...:)

So no one feels that that we are still living with the punishment that was given to Adam and Eve?? I think we are. Is it temporary for this earth's life? and if so what will change for women when Eve's punishments are removed?

Punishments? I have never thought about the things given us by G-d as punishments but as necessary helps to get is through the things (trials) we must face for salvation.

The Traveler

[Vort]

Well directing everyone back to the main point of my post.....about the punishment given to Adam and Eve...:)

So no one feels that that we are still living with the punishment that was given to Adam and Eve?? I think we are. Is it temporary for this earth's life? and if so what will change for women when Eve's punishments are removed?

"Punishment" is the wrong word, however Genesis may present the story. The consequence of our mortal journey is a mortal experience, and that involves pain, discomfort, suffering, and death. Women are no more "cursed" than are men. Brigham Young is said to have taught that the story of Adam and Eve is a "children's rhyme", not to be taken word-for-word literally (though of course, other General Authorities and even Church Presidents have believed the opposite).

[Hala401]

Well directing everyone back to the main point of my post.....about the punishment given to Adam and Eve...:)

So no one feels that that we are still living with the punishment that was given to Adam and Eve?? I think we are. Is it temporary for this earth's life? and if so what will change for women when Eve's punishments are removed?

I just want to take a guess here. Can it be that you have had the idea of your worthlessness pounded into you? Can it be that you have had some failures and feel guilt over them; being unable to forgive yourself, and posibly feeling you need to be punished? Can it be that some of those who were supposed to protect you have been harsh and unfair to you?

I've struggled with those feelings; even sought out those who would punish me. It's getting better now. The love of Heavenly Father is powerful. Jesus Christ atoned for our sins. Have you studied the atonement? It took me a long time to accept it, but it does get better.

[Leah]

hopefulfaith quoted the Bible (Gen 3:16-19) on this matter:

[To Eve] ...thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Right...but she is choosing to interpret that verse in a particular (negative) manner and is saying that the men in the church "rule over" the women. So I am asking where it is she has specifically seen that this how the church teaches it. I am seeking expansion of her viewpoint beyond one solitary verse in the Bibel that can be intrepreted in a variety of ways, given her negative viewpoint on the subject. I am trying to understand where that viewpoint comes from.