Why did Satan rebel? Why won't God forgive him?

[ConvinceTheWorld]

hey guys, me and my mother were having a discussion a few minutes ago about this. I felt this was the best place to ask...

I mean I know why he rebelled (him wanting to be the redeemer of mankind) but knowing that he will not have a body, and will be in hell why doesnt he repent? Will God ever forgive him? It says he is thrown in the lake of fire but after a 1,000 years released and then again condemed to the bottomless pit? what is the point of freeing him?

My main question is this: According to our scriptures he wanted to be the redeemer of mankind in exchange to become like God. If he would just follow the plan of salvation that would be his inheritence? Its like he had perfect access to his only want and didnt do it. Confusing.

On the other hand we know he had to fall so we could have opposition to choose righteousness....

So he rebelled against God's plan thus becoming part of God's plan?

My opinion: It is a solid punishment from Lucifers father, who is God. His father seeth fit to punish him that long =P Its nothing to Eternity.

Edited August 11, 2011 by ConvinceTheWorld

[Guest gopecon]

Satan, and the spirits that followed him wanted to take away our agency and actually dethrone the Father. He wasn't a good guy who got his feelings hurt not being picked, he sought the honor and glory of the Father. Since that time he has knowingly worked to bring misery to as many as will follow him. Repentance is not an option - he's guilty of the unforgiveable sin as he has acted with full knowledge of who the Father and Son are.

[Just_A_Guy]

I suspect--but cannot provide doctrinal support for the idea--that God would take back Satan and all the sons of perdition, if only they'd repent. But definitionally, a son of perdition is simply incapable of repenting. He has allowed himself to be consumed with an eternal hatred of God and all things holy, and (IMHO) wouldn't take forgiveness if it were offered to him. Kind of like Anakin Skywalker--arms and legs cut off, three inches from the boiling lava, looking at Obi Wan and growling "I hate you".

[Jennarator]

I suspect--but cannot provide doctrinal support for the idea--that God would take back Satan and all the sons of perdition, if only they'd repent. But definitionally, a son of perdition is simply incapable of repenting. He has allowed himself to be consumed with an eternal hatred of God and all things holy, and (IMHO) wouldn't take forgiveness if it were offered to him. Kind of like Anakin Skywalker--arms and legs cut off, three inches from the boiling lava, looking at Obi Wan and growling "I hate you".

This is exactly the way I look at it.

I think (again, no proof or docterine to back it up, that Heavenly Father just knows that he will never change his ways, that's why he isn't forgiven. After all we all all His children and he forgives people that have done huge things wrong, when they change their hearts and repent.

Have you ever know someone that is just mean and vindictive? Someone you just KNOW will never change. (Well they could change, but it is unlikely.) Heavenly Father knows us so well, he knows Satan will not change, and he contunues to take more of Father's children with him, he can't forgive unless there is a major change....

[slamjet]

I suspect--but cannot provide doctrinal support for the idea--that God would take back Satan and all the sons of perdition, if only they'd repent. But definitionally, a son of perdition is simply incapable of repenting. He has allowed himself to be consumed with an eternal hatred of God and all things holy, and (IMHO) wouldn't take forgiveness if it were offered to him. Kind of like Anakin Skywalker--arms and legs cut off, three inches from the boiling lava, looking at Obi Wan and growling "I hate you".

That really is a stretch

I don't agree with that interpretation.

Abraham 3:26

And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

It seems to me that there are definite eventual demarcation points that we need to pass to progress to the next level. Agreeing which plan to follow was one of them. So if we did good in the first estate (pre-existence) and didn't rebel against our Father in Heaven, then we qualified to move onto the second estate (earth life). Those that didn't, got kicked out and forever lost any hope of forgiveness or being able to come to the first estate. They had their chance, and they get to live with the consequences of their decision for eternity. Just as we get to live with the consequences for eternity. But we decided to stick with God and thus have a real chance at eternal progression at the most, eternity with an immortal body at the minimum, and life in outer darkness in the extreme. The next demarcation point, I believe, is the resurrection. After that, our fate is set for eternity with no chance of going back.

[NeuroTypical]

Kind of like Anakin Skywalker--arms and legs cut off, three inches from the boiling lava, looking at Obi Wan and growling "I hate you".

I hate to bust up a perfectly good analogy, but I just have to add that a few billion murders later, Anakin repents, is forgiven, and ends up all glowy and immortal next to Obi Wan and Yoda.

[And, apart from analogies to StarWars, I've found little else to answer these questions besides guessing.]

[Just_A_Guy]

Very possible, Slamjet. I would only respond that I see the scripture you cite as offering the what, whereas my rantings suggest a possible why.

[Guest gopecon]

Concerning the sons of perdition the Lord said the following in D&C 76:34 - "Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—" I'm pretty sure the applies to the ones who originally chose to follow Satan, as well as those who did so on Earth.

[Justice]

It's a matter of progression. You go from point A to point B to point C...

From First Estate to Second Estate to Kingdom of Glory. You cannot skip the first or second and end up with glory in the 3rd.

As far as why Satan chooses to do this, I do have an idea that, I believe, is scriptural. Since it will generate unwanted discussion of another topic I'll just keep it to myself. But, think of Laman and others all through the scriptures who felt they deserved something just because of who they are. If they feel it is stolen from them they never change. Lucifer had to feel much this same way.

[Seminarysnoozer]

hey guys, me and my mother were having a discussion a few minutes ago about this. I felt this was the best place to ask...

I mean know why he rebelled (him wanting to be the redeemer of mankind) but knowing that he will not have a body, and will be in hell why doesnt he repent? Will God ever forgive him? It says he is thrown in the lake of fire but after a 1,000 years released and then again condemed to the bottomless pit? what is the point of freeing him?

My main question is this: According to our scriptures he wanted to be the redeemer of mankind in exchange to become like God. If he would just follow the plan of salvation that would be his inheritence? Its like he had perfect access to his only want and didnt do it. Confusing.

On the other hand we know he had to fall so we could have opposition to choose righteousness....

So he rebelled against God's plan thus becoming part of God's plan?

I don't think that Satan or those that followed him are capable of participating in what provides glory. God's plan requires a charitable nature because it depends on the success of others. If one expresses their nature as being self centered to that degree then they are not capable of participating in the plan that requires faith and trust and dependency. It isn't so much that God will not forgive but rather Satan revealed his true nature without having to be put into the pressure cooker of this life to reveal it. On the opposite side there are those souls who have revealed their good nature and will be taken in without having to go through the trial of this life, such as those that die before the age of 8 and those that have severe congenital illnesses that make it impossible to participate in a test of agency. So, just like there was no 'fork in the road' for those souls, there is no 'fork in the road' for Satan or his followers.

We are the ones in the middle ground where we have to reveal our true natures by our choices in this veil covered setting. This is the place where repentance has a role.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[Guest tbaird22]

Someone once told me (with support) that the reason lucifer had to be cast out and cannot be forgiven is because no one could change his mind or make him think differently. I think his path to destruction started with good intentions like most. Imagine being in the pre-mortal life for who knows how many millenia trying to think of a plan that would bring everyone back and finally when you do you are told you're wrong.

[bytor2112]

We know that the only unpardonable sin is against the Holy Spirit....so it stands to reason that Lucifer and those who followed did this.

[Just_A_Guy]

I think his path to destruction started with good intentions like most. Imagine being in the pre-mortal life for who knows how many millenia trying to think of a plan that would bring everyone back and finally when you do you are told you're wrong.

Maybe, but I'm skeptical.

Lucifer's plan called for nobody having the capacity to sin. Therefore, logically, there would have been no need for a redeemer because there would be nothing to redeem mankind from. Why, then, did Lucifer feel he still needed or merited God's glory?

I'm inclined to think his "plan" was a pretext for usurping God's power, which would bear out Isaiah's analysis.

[Dove]

hey guys, me and my mother were having a discussion a few minutes ago about this. I felt this was the best place to ask...

I mean know why he rebelled (him wanting to be the redeemer of mankind) but knowing that he will not have a body, and will be in hell why doesnt he repent? Will God ever forgive him? It says he is thrown in the lake of fire but after a 1,000 years released and then again condemed to the bottomless pit? what is the point of freeing him?

My main question is this: According to our scriptures he wanted to be the redeemer of mankind in exchange to become like God. If he would just follow the plan of salvation that would be his inheritence? Its like he had perfect access to his only want and didnt do it. Confusing.

On the other hand we know he had to fall so we could have opposition to choose righteousness....

So he rebelled against God's plan thus becoming part of God's plan?

Hello,

I posed a similar question to my stake president about the "necessity" of Lucifer. He told me that it wasn't necessary for Lucifer to fall in order for there to be opposition. That it was his choice.....

Though yes, it sure seems like he became part of the plan thru rebelling.

As far as I understand it, Lucifer fell because he wanted to take away man's agency and to receive God's glory or power. He can't be redeemed because he rejected the only way he could be; the Redeemer. Now that he has no light or goodness, he doesn't have the power to repent or change.

[rameumptom]

If you take a close look at the text on sons of perdition in D&C 76, you'll note this phrase:

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof

Everlasting/Endless/Eternal Punishment means God's Punishment (see D&C 19). It does not mean it lasts forever, but it lasts as long as is necessary. As long as they are in Outer Darkness, they are in torment. This torment is actually caused by their own hatred of and separation from God.

No man knows how long these will be in this condition, because it is not a determined event. Each being repents in his own timeframe, and is forgiven on God's terms. So the end of this is only revealed to those who suffer it, because only they can determine when it ends, through their choosing to repent.

[Gwen]

It's all been said but my 2cents.... The issue wasn't that he wanted to become like god with glory and power but wanted to become god. It was a mutiny.

He wanted to make it so no one would sin.... there are 2 ways to do that. Take away all agency (slavery) and no one can do things you don't approve of.... or Remove justice. Change the rules of the game so nothing is wrong. Is it possible he wanted to do what Jesus did but no "repentance" required? A free gift. Everyone comes down, does whatever they want, and gets a get out of jail free card, pass go, collect $200 and sell your soul to satan for the privilage to do so. Either way would be problematic for 2 of the most fundamental eternal laws.

As for forgiveness for him.... mercy can not rob justice. There are times appointed that we must accomplish things. After that point it's to late. When we hit the final judgment of this life, when it's all said and done it will be to late to "fix" our wrongs. Like the 10 foolish virgins, once the bridegroom came it was to late to fetch the oil. We have access to mercy here, the final judgment is just that, justice.

[Seminarysnoozer]

It's all been said but my 2cents.... The issue wasn't that he wanted to become like god with glory and power but wanted to become god. It was a mutiny.

He wanted to make it so no one would sin.... there are 2 ways to do that. Take away all agency (slavery) and no one can do things you don't approve of.... or Remove justice. Change the rules of the game so nothing is wrong. Is it possible he wanted to do what Jesus did but no "repentance" required? A free gift. Everyone comes down, does whatever they want, and gets a get out of jail free card, pass go, collect $200 and sell your soul to satan for the privilage to do so. Either way would be problematic for 2 of the most fundamental eternal laws.

As for forgiveness for him.... mercy can not rob justice. There are times appointed that we must accomplish things. After that point it's to late. When we hit the final judgment of this life, when it's all said and done it will be to late to "fix" our wrongs. Like the 10 foolish virgins, once the bridegroom came it was to late to fetch the oil. We have access to mercy here, the final judgment is just that, justice.

My two cents on your two cents ...

I think the statement "he wanted to make it so no one would sin" gives a slight implication to the idea that he even cared about his brothers and sisters even if it is misguided. I don't think he cared one bit about anyone but himself. Ultimately, his idea was self-centered, he wanted to make glory for himself and by himself without any real regard to how others fared in the process. His proposed plan was was to do the opposite of submission. He didn't want to submit to God or give glory to anyone. After being cast out, in his gnashing of teeth phase, I think that is the point that he wanted people to follow him, only in vengeance to being turned down. I am not sure that his original idea had anything to do with him giving anything to anybody but himself.

I kind of think of struggles I have had with my teenagers. One in particular thinks she can live on her own at the age of 14 and has been a little rebellious not realizing how destructive and backwards that idea is. In her eyes, the idea of moving out and having her own things is one of glory and greatness. It may be glory and greatness at some future point but only when it is done with the assistance of others and when submission and gratitude for what one has is part of the process.

The greatest glory comes to those who find joy in the success of others which is being charitable, giving praise to God. The least glory comes to those who only try to find success in and by themselves.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[Traveler]

Why is Satan evil? To begin with I sometimes think we do not really understand the nature of evil. Lucifer was a being of wondrous light. His fall caused great sorrow in heaven. I believe we should be careful how and why we criticize him. From posts in the past I believe his great flaw and his road to perdition is the opposite of what most seem to understand. Please allow me to explain.

1. I see Lucifer (Satan) as a very brilliant, highly intellectual and beautiful person full of charisma. I believe him to be an enjoyable fun individual that engenders great loyalty and even love among his friends.

2. I do believe Lucifer has what very few see as a flaw - He loves his friends but dislikes his enemies and does not forgive them. This I believe to be the greatest of all evil. I posted on another thread that refusing to forgive others is the greatest of all crimes, evil and sins. I was told I was not relevant for such a stupid remark. I believe this is Lucifer’s flaw and why he is Satan. I believe this is his justification for tempting us. HIS PURPOSE IS TO INSURE THAT WE GET EXACTLY WHAT WE DESERVE!!!

3. I do not believe Lucifer’s choice is ignorant - I believe he knows exactly what he is doing. He understands the outcome - he knows what his choices bring and he prefers it, desires it and in full knowledge - demands it. His choice is not because he does not understand or has not considered something. His choice is in full light of all things in all eternity.

4. I believe Satan to be like the older brother of the prodigal son. I believe Satan felt that the prodigal son wasted his inheritance and does not deserve to be forgiven and welcomed home. I believe that Satan is convinced that such should burn in hell forever for their bad choices. I believe he thinks only perfect people - without flaws belong in heaven. I think Satan considers us his enemies and tempts us because he wants us to suffer for choosing to experience sin. His concept is that he is only making sure we experience sin because we so chose and thus we deserve. I think that Satan hates mercy and is convinced it is unjust. Thus he laughs at our sorrow over our sins and think our efforts to repent are ludicrous foolish an counterproductive.

5. I believe Satan would rather be with beloved friends in hell than with pardoned enemies in heaven.

6. I do not think Satan is so unlike the rest of us.

The Traveler

[Guest gopecon]

My responses to Traveler's post.

1) You are probably right, although I would state it as past tense. By opposing God and becoming an enemy to all righteousness he is no longer a "beautiful person" or an "enjoyable fun individual".

2) I agree that he does not want us to find mercy, i.e. get what we deserve. As far as loving his friends...I think the scriptures say that he is an unfaithful master - that he will not stand by his followers.

3) I think that you are probably right here, although I don't think that he has/had the full view of eternity that our Father has.

4) The problem with the Prodigal Son analagy is that the elder son was the good one. His father promised him all that he has. Satan wants others to be miserable like he is. The problem I have with this idea is that his enemies and his friends will get the same "reward" for following him. His "loved" friends are enemies that he won over. It sound like you are giving him too much credit for having decent motives.

5) I don't think he has "beloved friends" because he is no longer capable of love, having become an enemy to all righteousness.

6) While I certainly have my flaws I don't think this is a fair statement about me, or anyone who is trying to follow the Savior.

Basically I think we need to be careful about sympathizing with or relating to the devil.

Edited August 11, 2011 by gopecon

[slamjet]

Skousen say's that outer darkness is akin to disintegration into those evil little intelligences, never to be used again. Freaky. But it's not like he has all the answers anyhow.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Why is Satan evil? To begin with I sometimes think we do not really understand the nature of evil. Lucifer was a being of wondrous light. His fall caused great sorrow in heaven. I believe we should be careful how and why we criticize him. From posts in the past I believe his great flaw and his road to perdition is the opposite of what most seem to understand. Please allow me to explain.

1. I see Lucifer (Satan) as a very brilliant, highly intellectual and beautiful person full of charisma. I believe him to be an enjoyable fun individual that engenders great loyalty and even love among his friends.

2. I do believe Lucifer has what very few see as a flaw - He loves his friends but dislikes his enemies and does not forgive them. This I believe to be the greatest of all evil. I posted on another thread that refusing to forgive others is the greatest of all crimes, evil and sins. I was told I was not relevant for such a stupid remark. I believe this is Lucifer’s flaw and why he is Satan. I believe this is his justification for tempting us. HIS PURPOSE IS TO INSURE THAT WE GET EXACTLY WHAT WE DESERVE!!!

3. I do not believe Lucifer’s choice is ignorant - I believe he knows exactly what he is doing. He understands the outcome - he knows what his choices bring and he prefers it, desires it and in full knowledge - demands it. His choice is not because he does not understand or has not considered something. His choice is in full light of all things in all eternity.

4. I believe Satan to be like the older brother of the prodigal son. I believe Satan felt that the prodigal son wasted his inheritance and does not deserve to be forgiven and welcomed home. I believe that Satan is convinced that such should burn in hell forever for their bad choices. I believe he thinks only perfect people - without flaws belong in heaven. I think Satan considers us his enemies and tempts us because he wants us to suffer for choosing to experience sin. His concept is that he is only making sure we experience sin because we so chose and thus we deserve. I think that Satan hates mercy and is convinced it is unjust. Thus he laughs at our sorrow over our sins and think our efforts to repent are ludicrous foolish an counterproductive.

5. I believe Satan would rather be with beloved friends in hell than with pardoned enemies in heaven.

6. I do not think Satan is so unlike the rest of us.

The Traveler

Why do you think Satan has friends? I don't think there is any evidence of that.

Even if he had friends, what makes you think he would love them?

I can follow the idea that he may have started out like the rest of us but as he matured he revealed his true nature, which is not so much of a choice but who he is. He made choices based on who he is and his true nature. His true nature is to be 100% self centered. With his degree of selfishness I don't see how he can have any friends at all.

There are people described as loving Satan but the ironic thing is I don't think Satan loves them.

I don't think any of us get to choose our true natures through the point of being spiritually mature. 'True nature' being the make up of our spirit self, at least up to the point of coming here and adding to our natures through experience and consequences of choices.

[Spartan117]

What I can't wrap my head around is that Lucifer was (as previously states) highly intelligent. George Q. Cannon said "He was a mighty angel; he had exceedingly great power in the presence of God." He was at least a contender for the role of Savior, that, to me, speaks volumes on his status. So when I think about why he would openly defy God, in His presence no less, I wonder why? Not what he was trying to accomplish, that I think is pretty clear. But what would make him think he had a chance of winning? I don't accept that he was simply blinded by pride or something along those lines. I have nothing to offer much beyond that, but I think the logistics behind Satan's rebellion are far more intricate than what has been revealed. So far. Again, just floating my 2 cents but I think he had a legitimate reason to think that there was even a slight possibility that he could pull off a coup d'état. So legitimate that a third of Heaven followed him.

[Gwen]

What I can't wrap my head around is that Lucifer was (as previously states) highly intelligent. George Q. Cannon said "He was a mighty angel; he had exceedingly great power in the presence of God." He was at least a contender for the role of Savior, that, to me, speaks volumes on his status. So when I think about why he would openly defy God, in His presence no less, I wonder why? Not what he was trying to accomplish, that I think is pretty clear. But what would make him think he had a chance of winning? I don't accept that he was simply blinded by pride or something along those lines. I have nothing to offer much beyond that, but I think the logistics behind Satan's rebellion are far more intricate than what has been revealed. So far. Again, just floating my 2 cents but I think he had a legitimate reason to think that there was even a slight possibility that he could pull off a coup d'état. So legitimate that a third of Heaven followed him.

If we take the concept of being a heavenly family to a literal intepretion then you have to think of it differently than we do now.

God wasn't god, he was dad. We were kids. How many teens openly defy their parents and even presume to rule over them? The concept of god was created for this life. He is over everythign here. We are here to learn oposites, humility, faith, obedience.... things we will need to be prepared to grow up and be like our parents... like god.

So yes in our state of mortality and god is a supreme being the idea of defying is hard to grasp. Thinking of ourselves in a less vunerable state, as a family, more like we are with family here it's pretty easy to understand the concept of a child doing such a thing, I think it is anyway.

[Traveler]

Why do you think Satan has friends? I don't think there is any evidence of that.

Even if he had friends, what makes you think he would love them?

A one third part of the most advanced and inteligent society to ever exist chose to follow Satan. I think it is a error to think friendship and loyalty had nothing to do with those that followed him.

I can follow the idea that he may have started out like the rest of us but as he matured he revealed his true nature, which is not so much of a choice but who he is. He made choices based on who he is and his true nature. His true nature is to be 100% self centered. With his degree of selfishness I don't see how he can have any friends at all.

There are people described as loving Satan but the ironic thing is I don't think Satan loves them.

I cannot comprehend that G-d would allow anyone to make such a critical choice without fully understanding what it is they are choosing. No one was fooled - no one did what they did because they did not know what they were doing. I do not believe G-d was experimenting to see if they really would rebel or how far they would go.

There must be an intelligent answer - one that makes sense. There has to be a "point" of no return. As I have already said - it seems clear to me. Satan has no mercy - for him there is no forgiveness. For all other things there seems to be a way back. A murderer can feel sorry; can come to understand the value of life with the lost of someone loved - but a lack of forgiveness cannot coexist with a kind thought or act of mercy. It is the ultimate act of selfishness. It is the beginning of all excuses - it is the reason and engine of revenge.

But I am convinced that there are - deep within us all the urge for revenge to insure that justice is meted out to all deserving - that the deserving suffer and the deserving wicked burn - the doers of evil be cast off. Dare I say it? Some so delight in serving justice and feigning mercy that they actually believe G-d will cast souls into everlasting hell - to suffer forever and ever - to suffer for all eternity. It is my understanding that G-d is the opposite - that G-d’s mercy is to prevent endless suffering - that those who suffer do so because they prefer suffering and insuring other suffer rather than look to G-d’s mercy and live.

I don't think any of us get to choose our true natures through the point of being spiritually mature. 'True nature' being the make up of our spirit self, at least up to the point of coming here and adding to our natures through experience and consequences of choices.

I thin just the opposite of you - I believe our true nature is in reality the only real choice me make. That is my understanding of agency - that we do choose our true nature. All other things follow that choice.

The Traveler

[Jamie123]

hey guys, me and my mother were having a discussion a few minutes ago about this. I felt this was the best place to ask...

It is "my mother and I". Now write that out five hundred times!

I mean I know why he rebelled (him wanting to be the redeemer of mankind) but knowing that he will not have a body, and will be in hell why doesnt he repent? Will God ever forgive him? It says he is thrown in the lake of fire but after a 1,000 years released and then again condemed to the bottomless pit? what is the point of freeing him?

My main question is this: According to our scriptures he wanted to be the redeemer of mankind in exchange to become like God. If he would just follow the plan of salvation that would be his inheritence? Its like he had perfect access to his only want and didnt do it. Confusing.

On the other hand we know he had to fall so we could have opposition to choose righteousness....

So he rebelled against God's plan thus becoming part of God's plan?

My opinion: It is a solid punishment from Lucifers father, who is God. His father seeth fit to punish him that long =P Its nothing to Eternity.

Perhaps he's rather like Lord Voldermort, who mutilated his own soul and voluntarily placed himself beyond redemption, in return for (as he saw it) power and immortality. Perhaps in this sense Satan is already effectively in Outer Darkness, just as the saved are already effectively in heaven.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Jamie123
Being a grammar Nazi