Moroni's Promise

[Promise63]

Hi Everyone.

Years ago I received a very strong answer after praying about the truth of the BOM. It came in the form of a very warm, loving feeling that lasted about two weeks. I had never felt this way before. I felt a Christ like love toward everyone.

I went through the temple and it bothered me. So I fell away from the church. I want that feeling back. Can we depend on just feelings that we have received?

Thank you for reading my post. Any help would greatly appreciated.

[Guest gopecon]

D&C 8 and 9 address answers to prayer. We are told to study issues out in our mind and our heart, so no, we generally don't have to rely on mere feelings. We do have to accept some things on faith, as we don't have all of the answers in this life. There are some things we won't understand in this life, there are others that we need to try out before gaining a testimony (tithing and the word of wisdom come to mind).

[rameumptom]

The first time I went to the temple, it was strange to me, too. But now that I've attended many, many times, I see the importance of the temple rite. It opens us up to continuing revelation and personal discourse with God.

Start with your testimony of the Book of Mormon. Remember, they had temples too. If you were to see what occurred in the ancient Jewish temples, you would think our modern temple rite was not so strange. We do not sacrifice animals. We do not sprinkle blood from those animals onto the altar nor on the people. You get my idea.

The temple is designed for two things: unite individuals and families together and to the family of God, and to prepare us to return back into God's presence. If you ponder it in such terms, you will find how important it is. In fact, the Book of Mormon is filled with temple themes (1 Nephi 1, 1 Ne 8-15, Mosiah 2-5, Alma 9-13, 3 Nephi 11-27, etc). Studying the Book of Mormon helps us to better understand the temple experience, and prepare to return into God's presence.

In the future, don't be too hasty as to run away from such things. Keep an open mind, and allow the Lord to prepare you to understand such things as the temple better.

[z_o_n_e]

Hi Everyone.

Years ago I received a very strong answer after praying about the truth of the BOM. It came in the form of a very warm, loving feeling that lasted about two weeks. I had never felt this way before. I felt a Christ like love toward everyone.

I went through the temple and it bothered me. So I fell away from the church. I want that feeling back. Can we depend on just feelings that we have received?

Thank you for reading my post. Any help would greatly appreciated.

I know exactly how you feel, regarding the feeling after praying on Moroni's promise. I too felt the holy ghost, and I also left the church shortly after. I also would like the feeling back, but it seems that no matter how much I pray I just get little hints, here and there. Nothing in comparison to the original prayer but enough to keep me going to try to become closer to God.

I remember before I left the church (Not really left, just never really returned :) ) I was told by a member that the hard part was upon me, to endure to the end. That Satan would use every trick in his book to pull me away. But, I did not pay attention to it.. after all I had just experienced the most extraordinary sensation in my life.. I felt there was nothing that could get in the way.

I suppose it takes a lot of work, and I thought I would always get that strong confirmation I had received when praying on Moroni's promise. Did not happen, I'm not sure if it will ever happen again. So eventually, I let doubts seep in, and primal urges take precedence.. started smoking again, drinking, and so on. I became prideful, and felt that I was above the church..

I dunno if that feeling will return, but I look at my life outside of the church and I know that given in to temptation, and letting myself be prideful is not doing any good. It is enough to keep me at least trying to find a strong faith again. I think, after our initial confirmation we are expected to work diligently for God. Best of luck, promise63.

[robsmom]

Feelings are fickle. We need to instead look at fact.

robsmom

[RMGuy]

My take.

Can feelings lead to a testimony? Yes.

Can feeling lead to false impressions? Yes.

I have no problems with relying upon feelings to bridge the darkness where knowledge does not exist. Such is the manner of faith.

As knowledge and facts become available THEN if my faith was placed in true priniciples then I should not fear the light and truth for the facts will not contradict my faith. If my faith was placed in untruths, half truths or lies, then knowledge and facts will reveal it for what it was. False.

-RM

[Spartan117]

I've come across a stumbling block or 2 that has made me question my faith. Nothing that made me fall away, but shook my foundation nonetheless. I would even say I panicked a bit. Whenever that has happened I always go back to the basics. Did I receive a spiritual confirmation about the Book of Mormon? Did I receive a spiritual confirmation about Joseph Smith being called a prophet? Did I receive a spiritual confirmation that Christ restored His Church to it's fullness, and that it exists on the earth today as it did when He set it up during His mortal ministry? All of those things have always been in line for me, so whenever I've struggled with a certain thing, I go back and make sure all of those things are still in line, and go from there.

[bluedreams]

Years ago I received a very strong answer after praying about the truth of the BOM. It came in the form of a very warm, loving feeling that lasted about two weeks. I had never felt this way before. I felt a Christ like love toward everyone.

I went through the temple and it bothered me. So I fell away from the church. I want that feeling back. Can we depend on just feelings that we have received?

Personal sidenote: I wish I'd gotten an answer like that for the BoM. My answer was more along the lines of "duh!"

To the main question, no. The scriptures outline a ton of different ways that we can recognize the spirit. The voice of God is varied and shows itself in various ways.

A great list of some of those ways is found in preach my gospel on pg 96 (you can find it here

I personally would recommend thinking about coming back. This is a small scale example of the problem you faced (and one that, honestly, is sort of stupid). For a while I had a problem with kneeling prayer. Which isn't usually a problem outside of your normal day, but it was as a missionary and it was actually screwing up my prayers because I was irritated by praying. This bothered me in and of itself. So I went on a search for everything that entailed kneeling in prayer. There's not much, and I found plenty of wiggle room for tons of other forms of prayer. But after it I found myself unbothered by when I kneeled in prayer. Often, I wanted to kneel in prayer because I then had a better understanding of the deeper symbolic meaning of what it meant to kneel.

Again, this is a far smaller example, but when something bothers me, I take it as an oppurtunity to study it out. As I do, I come to a better understanding of what it is and in turn a deeper appreciation of my faith. The Temple is extremely deep and beautiful and at time overwhelming. It's one of those things that warrant lifetime study and not just momentary feeling.

With luv,

BD

[pam]

Feelings are fickle. We need to instead look at fact.

robsmom

You can't always rely on fact. Many things are based on faith and the promptings of the Spirit.

[Spartan117]

Feelings are fickle. We need to instead look at fact.

robsmom

Fact and truth are not always synonymous. At one time it was a fact the world was flat. It used to be a fact that the earth was the center of the universe. If anything is fickle, it is what our "facts" are from day to day.

[bytor2112]

Hi Everyone.

Years ago I received a very strong answer after praying about the truth of the BOM. It came in the form of a very warm, loving feeling that lasted about two weeks. I had never felt this way before. I felt a Christ like love toward everyone.

I went through the temple and it bothered me. So I fell away from the church. I want that feeling back. Can we depend on just feelings that we have received?

Thank you for reading my post. Any help would greatly appreciated.

So you:

1. Hold the Melchezedek Priesthood?

2. Had a testimony of Joseph Smith and sustain our current Prophet?

3.Were a full tithe payer?

4. Attended all your meetings.

5. Did all the above for at least one year.

And you only had Spiritual experiences for a couple of weeks? How then did you have a testimony of Joseph Smith or of paying tithing?

Maybe you could elaborate a bit more on your conversion or lack there of.

[RMGuy]

Fact and truth are not always synonymous. At one time it was a fact the world was flat. It used to be a fact that the earth was the center of the universe. If anything is fickle, it is what our "facts" are from day to day.

Spartan,

I would argue that it was never a fact that the world was flat or that the earth was the center of the universe. It was accepted wisdom, but like faith, accepted on the basis of no evidence. In fact it was Galileo Galilei that challenged the very notion that you used in your argument. In 1616 the Church based on ideas that many things needed to be decided by faith and not evidence ordered him to cease and desist teaching the very facts that you ascribe above. Why? Because it did not hold with what they BELIEVED to be true. For a time he obeyed his leaders, but eventually his knowledge of truth one out, and he again spoke out. In 1633, a church court was held for heresy. He would spend the rest of his life as an outcast and under arrest. It wasn't until 1992 that the church acknowledged their error and apologized for their treatment of Galileo. So facts are by definition truths. Belief is another matter entirely. You example does not prove your point, on the contrary it proves your null hypothesis. Which is probably fittingly as Galileo would have it.

-RM

[Dravin]

In fact it was Galileo Galilei that challenged the very notion that you used in your argument.

Galileo Galilei argued a heliocentric model but, and it's a little unclear, you seem to be implying that he was some sort of disturber of the flat earth model. His trial was over his heliocentric model, that the flat earth model was considered valid and in need of debunking back then is a modern myth (Myth of the Flat Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

Edit: Okay, history lesson over. Carry on.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Dravin

[Vort]

I would argue that it was never a fact that the world was flat or that the earth was the center of the universe. It was accepted wisdom, but like faith, accepted on the basis of no evidence.

This is false, plain and simple. There is abundant evidence that the earth is flat. Any fool can see that. In fact, the only three classes of people who do not know the earth is flat are the extremely stupid, the fantastically observant, and all the rest of us who have grown up with the knowledge.

If you argue that it was never "fact" that the earth was flat, then you must argue that facts are unknowable by their very nature. Newton's laws are not "fact", because Einstein showed they were flawed* and proposed something more fitting. But we can't take Einstein's laws as fact, because they are not the last word. We can NEVER use the latest word as "fact", only the final word -- which we will never survive to see.

I reject that line of reasoning. Spartan has a very valid point, whether or not you wish to acknowledge it or prefer to quibble about wording.

*Einstein did not actually show Newton's laws were flawed; that had been known for decades. Einstein simply found an elegant solution to resolve many of those flaws.

[RMGuy]

Fact: Something is known as a proven truth.

Originally from latin factum, earliest common usage as "truth, reality" dates from the 16th century.

Oxford University Dictionary.

And the original claim in the post dealth wtih not just a flat earth but also that the earth was the center of the universe. Galileo's arguement that the earth moves contrary, to the then accepted scriptural interpretation of both old and new testament verse, was in direct contravention of geocentrism.

There was never any mention in my post, real or implied, with regards to Galileo and a flat earth.

Spartan orginially stated, "Fact and truth are not always synonymous. At one time it was a fact the world was flat. It used to be a fact that the earth was the center of the universe. If anything is fickle, it is what our "facts" are from day to day."

My response was to the point that facts (truths) do not change, and that those facts are BEST proven by scientific inquiry. His example of the flat earth, and a geocentric view have both been proven false by scientific method. In fact, one of his examples, the geocentric earth model, proves the point exactly. That the church persecuted and imprisoned a proponent of truth because it directly contravened their scriptural interpretation and feelings on the matter.

With that being said, am I willing to argue that science is infallible? Clearly the answer is no. But then neither are feelings, impressions, or faith.

I believe that there is a valid and important place for faith, hope, and believe. It should be used to help us bridge the gap between what we know and what we don't. Yet, as verifiable and testable truth is available it should SUPPORT the conclusions reached by faith, otherwise that faith is vain. If we really believe that we have the truth in the church, if we really believe in the restoration, and a communion between heaven and earth, then we should never fear proveable science for the two would not be in contradiction. God gave me an intellect, and he expects me to use it. I trust God, and I trust revealed truth. BUT, I test that revealed truth.

-RM

[Blackmarch]

Hi Everyone.

Years ago I received a very strong answer after praying about the truth of the BOM. It came in the form of a very warm, loving feeling that lasted about two weeks. I had never felt this way before. I felt a Christ like love toward everyone.

I went through the temple and it bothered me. So I fell away from the church. I want that feeling back. Can we depend on just feelings that we have received?

Thank you for reading my post. Any help would greatly appreciated.

we are commanded to follow christ with our hearts, might, and mind.

Feelings are only 1/3 of the equation. from what you shared id say you definitely got an answer.

[Vort]

Fact: Something is known as a proven truth.

Originally from latin factum, earliest common usage as "truth, reality" dates from the 16th century.

So, then, you prefer to quibble with definitions. Fine, I will play for a while, until I get bored.

Do you remember what Spartan wrote? You must, because you quoted it:

Spartan orginially stated, "Fact and truth are not always synonymous. At one time it was a fact the world was flat. It used to be a fact that the earth was the center of the universe. If anything is fickle, it is what our "facts" are from day to day."

Here, Spartan is clearly drawing a distinction by saying, in effect:

There are two different things at play here: The underlying reality of things, which I label truth, and our perceptions and measurements of that underlying reality, which I label facts. The underlying reality, "truth", never changes. Our perceptions and measurements of "truth", or "facts", do indeed change on a daily basis, as our ability to perceive and measure improves.

Exactly what is it that you object to in this? What fault do you find? Is it not obvious? Are you really saying that reality is the same as its perception? Or are you ignoring the obvious point he is driving toward and quibbling with his words? I suspect the latter, given your response:

My response was to the point that facts (truths) do not change, and that those facts are BEST proven by scientific inquiry.

In other words: "Quit trying to point out deep metatruths. I am going to insist on the synonymity of "truth" and "fact" and then use that identity to obfuscate the point."

Okay, fine. I don't like your game, but if that's what you want to play, I respond by saying that "scientific inquiry" is by no means "BEST proven" method for discovering facts (truth). Scientific inquiry tells me little or nothing about what my role is in society or what my duties to God include. Scientific inquiry does not tell me how best to love my wife or serve my children. These things are reality, or facts, or truth, and scientific inquiry is of no practical value whatsoever in discovering them.

But I invite you to quit quibbling about how Spartan says things and instead seek to understand and respond to what he is trying to say. In doing so, you are likely to find the conversation more enlightening, and you might learn something.

[RMGuy]

Wow Vort,

I'm not sure exactly why you feel that I am such a threat to your world view. It seems from your response that we are saying much the same thing, but perhaps using slightly different language, but whatever.

My original post to the original question, not to hijack promise's threat mentioned much the same things. That question was whether we can depend on just feelings. My original statement was that indeed there is a time and a place to rely on feelings, but that feelings should not contradict fact or truth, as it becomes available. Perhaps you disagree.

Robsmom, then went so far as to state that feelings are fickle we should look at fact, and Spartan repsonded with the statement that fact and truth are noy always synonymous (hence why I later provided the definition, commonly accepted, that in fact the definition of fact is truth and has been since the 16th century). Spartan further went on to state, in support of his point that once upon a time it was accepted as fact that the earth was flat and the center of the universe.

I then shared that as a matter of fact (there's that word again) Galileo suffered persecution at the hands of the church of his day for providing evidence that indeed the earth was NOT the center of the universe as the church felt to be true. Hence, science revealed truth, who knows, perhaps Galileo was led by the feelings and impressions Spirit to the discoveries that he developed.

I'm sorry that you seem to find that threatening.

-RM

[Connie]

Promise 63,

Just a few things that came to mind as i read through the thread. Maybe they will help, maybe not. But here they are anyway.

D&C 6:

22 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.

23 Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?

24 And now, behold, you have received a witness; for if I have told you things which no man knoweth have you not received a witness?

I do not depend on what has happened in the past. To keep my living testimony of the Book of Mormon secure, I receive the promise of Moroni often. I don’t take that blessing of a testimony for granted as a perpetual entitlement.

A Living Testimony - general-conference

Good talk, i would encourage you to read it in it's entirety and not just the little quote from it i put up.

Hope that helps a bit. I'm one who likes to do lots of searching through lds.org when i have a question so i'll do that if i find some more time and see what i can come up with. These were just some things that immediately came to mind.

Pax vobiscum,

Connie

[Traveler]

I have struggled a great deal with attempts to understand “truth”. At the heart of my struggle is trying to come to terms with perceptions verses reality. To those that may not understand such mediations - our only view or understanding of reality is a derivative of perceptions. A wise physicist once said to me that facts are just truths altered by opinion. He also said, “Never argue against an opinion you do not understand.”

In my reality it is almost always the opinion I do not understand that I argue with the most. On occasion I have been forced into a position where I then see the point of view that I refused to consider and realized that almost always that point of view had merit that could improve my understanding. For those that are not bored already I will give an example. Sometime ago, the institution of traditional Christianity had a major confrontation with and individual Galileo concerning the center of the universe; one arguing the earth the other the sun. Each had their reasons and it is interesting to try to understand both reasons. Now fast forward to today and perhaps the most elegant and accepted theory of the universe is the Big Bang Theory and the concept of the universe as a 4 dimensional sphere.

Under the definition of the universe as a 4 dimensional sphere we are very literally standing at the precise center point of the universe. We are also standing at the edge of the universe, touching if you will, infinite “points” beyond or outside of our universe.

All this brings me to my thought in this post. There is a saying - there are none as blind as he that will not see. Many do not feel that religion adds anything of worth or value to the human landscape of wisdom. Perhaps most lost in our modern landscape is the divine model of a G-d. I have “argued” the possible existence of G-d with many colleagues that will not believe. What is interesting to me is that in all such cases when I have come to understand their perceived definition of a G-d - I do not believe in any such thing either. Intrinsic to my understanding or perception of truth is that there are two competing “forces” that we deal with in our quest for “truth”. One is a force to understand, the other a force to distort or misdirect.

When I become aligned with the force of compelling understanding - I have good “feelings”, even understanding problems at work or solving a math problem brings me joy. When I am confused, interestingly, I experience depression and not so good feelings. But what is incredible is that often when I think I have discovered some hidden thing of value - I have not experienced the usual joy. Then discovered later that I was missing important things.

Are feelings the answer? My gut feeling is that feelings are part of the answer but feelings by themselves are incomplete. In essence feelings follow but seldom lead. What is it that leads us to truth? The answer is discipline. I would continue but this post is long enough already.

The Traveler

[RMGuy]

Traveler, please continue.....

RM

[spamlds]

Hi Everyone.

Years ago I received a very strong answer after praying about the truth of the BOM. It came in the form of a very warm, loving feeling that lasted about two weeks. I had never felt this way before. I felt a Christ like love toward everyone.

I went through the temple and it bothered me. So I fell away from the church. I want that feeling back. Can we depend on just feelings that we have received?

Thank you for reading my post. Any help would greatly appreciated.

The way to get the feeling back is through sincere repentance. I don't mean to say this in a condemning way, so please try to understand that I mean this with compassion.

When you felt the gift of the Holy Ghost testify of truth, that is the more sure word of prophecy that the scriptures talk about. Seeing an angel is not as important as that feeling. That testimony will sustain you throughout every trial as long as you are not wiling to let go of it. Letting go of it costs you. The way back is through sincere repentance, godly sorrow, restitution, making it right to the Lord and those you may have influenced, and then confessing your error to the Lord asking his forgiveness. The awareness of forgiveness comes to us gradually most of the time as our guilt is taken away.

Secondly, you say that you went to the temple before falling away. In going to the temple, you made sacred covenants there. Violating those covenants places you under the adversary's power until you repent fully and recommit yourself to keep the covenants you made. Violation of those covenants is a serious sin.

To get the "good feeling" back--is to get the gift of the Holy Ghost again. That only comes after obtaining a remission of your sins. The only way to obtain that is through deep, personal repentance. If you're on that road already, welcome home!

[Traveler]

Traveler, please continue.....

RM

Do not take me wrong there is great joy in discovering doctrine. However I do not believe that in the quest for truth that doctrine is the end game or the engine of joy. It is not doctrine that brings the lasting joy. In my journeys, finding true doctrine is only the beginning of a quest for truth. Both truth and lasting joy comes from discipline.

Jesus often addressed this issue of doctrine without discipline. The word he used as translated for us from scripture was hypocrite. (BTW - Stephen in another thread missed the entire point) In essence if you believe a doctrine you must of necessity live with complete compatibility to your understanding of doctrine. Any exception, as my brother would say, becomes the defining point of our belief and doctrine.

Often we ask if a particular doctrine is more important than life. Life without connection to truth is hardly a life of value. What worth is the life of a hypocrite? The only way to get past hierocracy is discipline. In the gospel of Jesus Christ the beginning of the art of discipline is defined for us in the manner of repetitive ordinance.

I read a scientific study that indicated that in order to perfect a physical or mental ability we must repeat it 10,000 times. This repetition is the basis of discipline. That which we repeat becomes second nature and eventually our nature. National Geographic Mag published an article in March of 2004 about the human brain and how repetition of behavior changes our brain. In short no one is able to play the violin until their brain has been wired (changed) to perform the function. I could go into great detail to explain what is going on as the brain changes but that is not the point. The point is - we become that which we do much more than that which we pretend to believe. If we think we can do without discipline we will eventually lose control of what we do and what we are. That which acts upon us becomes the means that controls us. The only way to gain control within us is through discipline.

I would submit that LDS doctrine is not really that much better than anyone else’s. The most important lesson of life is not to find the best doctrine but rather to discipline ourselves to live accordingly to the best doctrine we have found. One thing about doing by discipline is that we understand much better than the undisciplined. What I think sets LDS apart from all other religions I know with rare exceptions are that the isotropic nature of our faith based in being disciplined in what we are doing. That is; that the “laws” of joy apply the same for every person, rich or poor, highly intelligent or intelligently challenged, physically strong or weak, members in high satiation (calling) or the member serving at the lowest calling. The same discipline is taught and expected of all. (for example the concept that there is no success that can compensate for failure in the home - being a beloved bishop does not reward someone more that being a devoted parent and spouse.

Bishops are not expected of the L-rd to be more disciplined than the nursery leader or an apostle. There are no exceptions. The joy and happiness of life comes only through discipline. Any religion that does not require the discipline - is moored to false hopes and delusional expectations. The word disciple and discipline has the same root meaning. Believing in Christ is not the true definition or joy or a Christian. (I know some think the scriptures say belief is the answer but only because they are undisciplined they do not understand) Being a Christian only comes from the discipline of being a disciple by the practice of it over and over and over again and again - until 7 times 70 and especially when all others think it impossible or not really necessary for one’s eternal salvation.

The Traveler

[SteveVH]

I think feelings are the last thing we should rely upon. They're nice when we have them, but they can be very misleading. Are we hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit, or are we hearing our own voice expressing our own desires for what we hope is true? Even worse, we have an enemy who speaks to us as well and can appear as an angel of light.

I have certainly received "good feelings" concerning my faith which I believe was due to the presence of God, and I am not Mormon. But discernment of spiritual voices is very important here and must be weighed with faith and reason. We all experience spiritual "highs". When that fades and emotion is taken out of the equation, we are left with true faith. Many times we are asked to walk through a desert. Now and again God provides an oasis in order to refresh us, but we cannot give up on our faith simply because we don't "feel" it at the moment.