Education: Public or Private?

[Jenamarie]

I've only known private schooling, except for the last couple years of highschool when my family moved from Asia to a small town in Utah, which didn't offer private schooling. I would like my daughter to attend private schooling but at this point, we haven't researched what's available and what our options are locally. I won't be devastated if it's a no-go but for now, I have my fingers crossed.

As for homeschooling, I would agree that MOST parents are not equipped to handle it. I have a good friend that is a special education teacher (20+ years) and says that although she mainly works with children with developmental disabilities, she does a lot of "catch-up" work with students that were homeschooled and are academically behind. As far as homeschooled kids not being socialised as well, maybe they are and maybe they're not. But certainly there are elements of socialisation they miss out on when being homeschooled versus attending school with peers.

Do you know most parents? Why do you believe they're not equipped? And is it impossible for them to BECOME equipped, if they truly feel it's the best option for their children?

And you're right that there's elements of socialization that home schoolers miss out on. I consider it one of the perks.

[Just_A_Guy]

Home schooling is like nuclear power. Handled well, it can be the best way to achieve its stated purpose. Handled poorly, the results can be spectacularly hideous and cause a lifetime of problems.

(Apologies if this simile is lacking in quality. I was educated at a public school, myself. )

I love the idea of home-schooling. I think we should put more resources into it. On the other hand, I can't ignore my anecdotal experience. I've taught primary for five or six years in three different wards. Almost without fail, the worst-behaved children and the slowest readers in any given class were being home-schooled and had been home-schooled for some time.

People should be able to make the decision themselves. On the other hand, I would hope that the decision would be based on something a little more solid than general condemnations of the moral values of public schoolchildren or unarticulated suspicion that the government is trying to indoctrinate my kids.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Just_A_Guy

[Bini]

Do you know most parents? Why do you believe they're not equipped? And is it impossible for them to BECOME equipped, if they truly feel it's the best option for their children?

And you're right that there's elements of socialization that home schoolers miss out on. I consider it one of the perks.

There are more idiots out there than not. You can probably Google it but apparently the vast majority of Americans can't even do algebra.. So if this is true, education is probably best left to the professionals. Note, I never said "all", I said most. There's always exceptions.

And high school for me sucked until my senior year but overall I couldn't wait to graduate. But that said, as crappy as HS was sometimes, it was such a big learning experience and it's something my daughter will experience, be it public, private or boarding school. If you share a different opinion, that's fine :)

[Jenamarie]

There are more idiots out there than not. You can probably Google it but apparently the vast majority of Americans can't even do algebra.. So if this is true, education is probably best left to the professionals. Note, I never said "all", I said most. There's always exceptions.

And high school for me sucked until my senior year but overall I couldn't wait to graduate. But that said, as crappy as HS was sometimes, it was such a big learning experience and it's something my daughter will experience, be it public, private or boarding school. If you share a different opinion, that's fine :)

The vast majority of Americans are also public schooled. Don't you think your comment is rather evidence that public school can also fail to educate our children? (please don't think I'm completely knocking the institution. I was raised by two PS teachers and admire the profession. But it's not a one-size-fits-all educational option, and I'm glad home schooling is legal and do-able for those parents who realize their child(ren) are among those for whom public school isn't a good fit).

And there are plenty of non-school situations which can help teach valuable life lessons. :)

[Bini]

The vast majority of Americans are also public schooled. Don't you think your comment is rather evidence that public school can also fail to educate our children? (please don't think I'm completely knocking the institution. I was raised by two PS teachers and admire the profession. But it's not a one-size-fits-all educational option, and I'm glad home schooling is legal and do-able for those parents who realize their child(ren) are among those for whom public school isn't a good fit).

And there are plenty of non-school situations which can help teach valuable life lessons. :)

Again, I said there are always exceptions, therefore, I concur that public/private schooling is not a one size fits all fit. Not sure what you're trying to corner me with..

[bytor2112]

And then there are those that want to keep their kids out of public school because of liberal indoctrination, because prayer has been removed, because they are against sex education, because schools don't teach creationism, because....well you name it.....and while some of these issues MAY be valid concerns...really a poor reason to decide to home school.

[Jenamarie]

And then there are those that want to keep their kids out of public school because of liberal indoctrination, because prayer has been removed, because they are against sex education, because schools don't teach creationism, because....well you name it.....and while some of these issues MAY be valid concerns...really a poor reason to decide to home school.

Why?

[bytor2112]

Why?

I.Q.? Prejudices, fear, concern....

[Guest]

I'm for privatization of the American Educational System with school vouchers given to students attending private/home schools that meet state accreditation criteria.

I am on the side of Bytor on home schooling. Just because one knows algebra doesn't mean one can teach it properly. I graduated valedictorian in a highly accredited private school. I can't teach. A lot of home schoolers don't realize they can't teach either. But there is one method of home schooling that I fully support - Montessori-style. This is where the parent is not the teacher - he/she is merely the facilitator. The student learns by self discovery and learning with his peers in 3 stages - observer, participant, teacher. Note - it is best conducted in a peer setting - siblings, co-ops, etc. What the parent provides is the proper Montessori tools and the complete learning environment. In Montessori, students don't just learn via textbooks - students learn by experience. For example, they don't learn math by drills. They learn it by counting/grouping/segregating beads.

[Vort]

Wait....are you calling me ignorant?

If your homeschooling views are reflected in what you've written so far, then yes, you are deeply ignorant. I have been involved in homeschooling for eighteen years. I expect I have a very much broader experience in the subject than you do. And my view could not be more different from yours.

Homeschooled kids, generally speaking, are the best, smartest, most polite, and socially best-adjusted students I have seen. They certainly are heads and shoulders above their publicly schooled peers in issues of social grace; I have rarely seen homeschooled children engage in antisocial behavior such as criminal activity and drug- and sex-related activity. These were common when I was publicly schooled, and are only more prevalent now.

There are, of course, the occasional public school success stories; even a broken clock is right twice a day. But the homeschooling families consistently turn out better, more intelligent, more socially graceful young adults than the public schools.

How many homeschooling co-op drug busts have you heard of? What's the pregnancy and STD rate of homeschooled vs. publicly schooled children?

[Guest]

If your homeschooling views are reflected in what you've written so far, then yes, you are deeply ignorant. I have been involved in homeschooling for eighteen years. I expect I have a very much broader experience in the subject than you do. And my view could not be more different from yours.

Homeschooled kids, generally speaking, are the best, smartest, most polite, and socially best-adjusted students I have seen. They certainly are heads and shoulders above their publicly schooled peers in issues of social grace; I have rarely seen homeschooled children engage in antisocial behavior such as criminal activity and drug- and sex-related activity. These were common when I was publicly schooled, and are only more prevalent now.

There are, of course, the occasional public school success stories; even a broken clock is right twice a day. But the homeschooling families consistently turn out better, more intelligent, more socially graceful young adults than the public schools.

How many homeschooling co-op drug busts have you heard of? What's the pregnancy and STD rate of homeschooled vs. publicly schooled children?

Vort, I agree with you on your 2nd paragraph but the comparison between public and home school especially as portrayed in the 4th paragraph is misleading. It is statistically highly likely that troubled homes are the root cause of troubled children. Troubled homes are highly unlikely to home school their children, hence drugged up and promiscuous kids lacking in appropriate adult supervision usually don't get home schooled. If they were, it would most certainly be a disaster.

[Vort]

Vort, I agree with you on your 2nd paragraph but the comparison between public and home school especially as portrayed in the 4th paragraph is misleading. It is statistically highly likely that troubled homes are the root cause of troubled children. Troubled homes are highly unlikely to home school their children, hence drugged up and promiscuous kids lacking in appropriate adult supervision usually don't get home schooled. If they were, it would most certainly be a disaster.

And this works both ways. Which homeschooled kids typically get put back into public schools? (Well, mine, but we're the exception.) Mostly, the homeschooled kids who get "mainstreamed" again are those who were unwilling to do what homeschooling takes, or (more often) whose parents were unwilling or unable to enforce the discipline necessary to make homeschooling work.

So what do the public school teachers say? "You know, every homeschooled child I have ever had in my class has been a major screw-up and among the worst of my students." Well, duh. Of course the supposedly homeschooled kids being "mainstreamed" back into public schools are bad students. If they weren't like that, they wouldn't be in public schools again, would they?

In the same vein, a not-insignificant minority of "homeschoolers" are parents whose kids were expelled from school, usually for behavioral issues. Fortunately (for homeschooling's reputation, at least), these arrangements are rarely successful, since the parents and their children all lack the discipline to make homeschooling work. They are typically back in "alternative high schools" or the like within a year, usually much less.

Occasionally, parents of troubled children actually make a real go of homeschooling -- and the benefit to the children in almost all cases is dramatic. Angry, bullied (or sometimes bullying), antisocial children learn to control their temper, interact with other children and adults in an appropriate manner, and become a whole lot happier, which is probably one of the causes of the first two benefits.

Bottom line: Education is the duty of the parents, as well as their privilege.

Parents who farm this duty off to government schools because they don't know any better (or sometimes because they simply do not care enough about their children to worry about it, preferring instead to get the monsters out of the house so they can have some quiet time and/or pursue other professional or personal goals) risk depriving their children and themselves of some of the most meaningful experiences they will ever have in life.

Of course, there are parents who do consider all alternatives and decide, for financial or other reasons, that paid schooling, public or otherwise, is best for their children. I respect such a decision. What I do not respect is the ignorant opinion that homeschooling is somehow a bad, unnatural, or inferior educational alternative. Such people literally do not know what they are talking about.

[HoosierGuy]

I love the topic because last week I started making a video on this very subject - exposing the bad charter schools.

1/3 of charter schools lag behind public schools. A good size of charter schools show no difference in results compared to pubic schools. And there's an important statistical decrease in charter school Math and English scores compared to public schools.

Plus the charter school people cry about their states rights and wanting more power. But there is a great lack of over-site by the locals and states of charter schools. So even with these charger schools the locals are not involved.

I'll say it hear like I'm going to say it in my video - Charter schools are bad for Indiana.

[Backroads]

I'm for privatization of the American Educational System with school vouchers given to students attending private/home schools that meet state accreditation criteria.

I am on the side of Bytor on home schooling. Just because one knows algebra doesn't mean one can teach it properly. I graduated valedictorian in a highly accredited private school. I can't teach. A lot of home schoolers don't realize they can't teach either. But there is one method of home schooling that I fully support - Montessori-style. This is where the parent is not the teacher - he/she is merely the facilitator. The student learns by self discovery and learning with his peers in 3 stages - observer, participant, teacher. Note - it is best conducted in a peer setting - siblings, co-ops, etc. What the parent provides is the proper Montessori tools and the complete learning environment. In Montessori, students don't just learn via textbooks - students learn by experience. For example, they don't learn math by drills. They learn it by counting/grouping/segregating beads.

Maybe that's something I missing the boat on understanding: In a fully privatized education system, where is the voucher money coming from?

I am in tentative favor of home-schooling: I find it to be a great option IF the person doing the teaching knows what they are doing. Since I am trained as a teacher, I think I might try out homeschooling my own future kids. As for anectdotal experience, the home-schooled kids I have known are extremely bright and quite social. But I also can see how this could all be just messed up.

[Guest]

Maybe that's something I missing the boat on understanding: In a fully privatized education system, where is the voucher money coming from?

I am in tentative favor of home-schooling: I find it to be a great option IF the person doing the teaching knows what they are doing. Since I am trained as a teacher, I think I might try out homeschooling my own future kids. As for anectdotal experience, the home-schooled kids I have known are extremely bright and quite social. But I also can see how this could all be just messed up.

In Florida, we have the voucher system used for Pre-K. Pre-K is voluntary (children don't have to have pre-k education to enter kindergarten in the public school). I like the way it works and hope all public school levels work the same way.

The private pre-k provider apply for accreditation with the state of Florida. Parents choose between all these providers to take their children to. The state of Florida gives the vouchers for the students enrolled in the accredited school's pre-k program to the private school to apply to tuition. In some schools, the voucher pays for the entire tuition including lunch. Some schools are more expensive, therefore the parents pay the difference between the voucher and the tuition.

[Blackmarch]

The vast majority of Americans are also public schooled. Don't you think your comment is rather evidence that public school can also fail to educate our children? (please don't think I'm completely knocking the institution. I was raised by two PS teachers and admire the profession. But it's not a one-size-fits-all educational option, and I'm glad home schooling is legal and do-able for those parents who realize their child(ren) are among those for whom public school isn't a good fit).

And there are plenty of non-school situations which can help teach valuable life lessons. :)

after my experiences in school, I"d say that if parents are willing to do homeschooling or private, that its much more profitable than the general education system. The catch here is that it takes dedication, cooperation, and lots of involvement on the parent's (and on the student's) part to make to make it work... and i think thats probably the biggest hurdle in the Homeschool/private school thing, and that many parents would not be willing to do or too intimidated to do.

[Guest]

Bottom line: Education is the duty of the parents, as well as their privilege.

AMEN.

For parents like me who don't have the proper skill to teach, we hire professional educators to do it for us. It's the same as hiring an expert mechanic qualified to fix the car instead of fixing it yourself and causing more damage. But no, we don't just "dump" the kids in public school to get them out of our hair. We do study all options and find what is best for the children.

I have one kid in a highly rated public school as he has the learning style that can succeed in that environment. I have another kid in private school as his learning style does not work in the public school setting. In both cases, I am very involved in their education - with one main goal - to provide the teachers all the support they need to do their jobs to the best of their abilities.

In any case, public or private or charter or home school, etc. there are horror stories and success stories. Just like it is bad for parents to just dump their kids in public school to abdicate their responsibility to their children, it is just as bad to home school them thinking they can do a better job when they don't have the needed skills out of some misguided view of the "immorality" of the school system. The difference between horror and success is the parents' involvement and their understanding of what is working and what is not for each unique child and their willingness to do everything in their power to make the better choice for their children. Parents need to understand that school (in any form) is where they learn Reading, Writing, Arithmetic but home should be the primary source of moral standards.

[NeuroTypical]

It's always interesting to hear people's anecdotal experiences of homeschooled kids. Seems like the anecdotes are either very negative or very positive.

However, when we read the actual studies that have been done, homeschooled kids outperform public and private in every single demographic and classification. Age group, income, one-parent, two-parent, ethnicity, political affiliation - it doesn't matter. When compared in groups, homeschooled kids get better standardized test scores, go to college in greater percentages, and even are 'more socialized' (to the extent that a study can measure socialization, which pretty much counts and compares number of extracurricular activities or clubs). We've known this since some groundbreaking studies in the '90's. Every subsequent study seems to confirm it.

It's pretty easy to google up some statistics. NHERI.org is one decent clearinghouse.

[bytor2112]

If your homeschooling views are reflected in what you've written so far, then yes, you are deeply ignorant. I have been involved in homeschooling for eighteen years. I expect I have a very much broader experience in the subject than you do. And my view could not be more different from yours.

Homeschooled kids, generally speaking, are the best, smartest, most polite, and socially best-adjusted students I have seen. They certainly are heads and shoulders above their publicly schooled peers in issues of social grace; I have rarely seen homeschooled children engage in antisocial behavior such as criminal activity and drug- and sex-related activity. These were common when I was publicly schooled, and are only more prevalent now.

There are, of course, the occasional public school success stories; even a broken clock is right twice a day. But the homeschooling families consistently turn out better, more intelligent, more socially graceful young adults than the public schools.

How many homeschooling co-op drug busts have you heard of? What's the pregnancy and STD rate of homeschooled vs. publicly schooled children?

Your comments reflect your experiences with home schooling ...as do mine. That doesn't qualify me as deeply ignorant anymore than your comments qualify you as deeply informed. Were you home schooled Vort?

Smart? Best? Most polite? Seriously? Evidence? Proof? The home schooled kids I have dealt with were not polite, not socially well adjusted and frankly not well prepared to do much in life. In my previous posts, I admitted my opinion is colored because of my limited experiences with home schooled kids, and I hope I was clear that I would never wish to deny anyone the right to do so.

My wife is highly regarded as an educator by students and parents and while we feel that the PS education system is in need of serious repair, there are a whole lot more success stories in Public Education than in home schooling.

Oh, and I have two sons in public education. Both are in the top 10 of their classes in a school of over several thousand students. They are polite, smart, not involved in criminal activity, haven't gotten anyone pregnant. My eldest will attend BYU after his mission and wants to become a lawyer and my youngest, after he filters through the incredible number of full scholarship offers will hopefully attend BYU for a while before he goes on to Med School.

I would put my two up against ANY home schooled kid anyday...oh and their friends as well. You should check the condescending, arrogant attitude regarding the vast majority of kids that attend PS. It's....well, frankly...deeply ignorant.

Edited January 30, 2012 by bytor2112

[Backroads]

In Florida, we have the voucher system used for Pre-K. Pre-K is voluntary (children don't have to have pre-k education to enter kindergarten in the public school). I like the way it works and hope all public school levels work the same way.

The private pre-k provider apply for accreditation with the state of Florida. Parents choose between all these providers to take their children to. The state of Florida gives the vouchers for the students enrolled in the accredited school's pre-k program to the private school to apply to tuition. In some schools, the voucher pays for the entire tuition including lunch. Some schools are more expensive, therefore the parents pay the difference between the voucher and the tuition.

While this really is a good system, I can't help but think we couldn't use vouchers with public money in a fully privatized system. Property owners probably wouldn't want their taxes going to private schools in a world where public schools don't exist, so there wouldn't be any money to put into vouchers for those unable to afford private school tuition.

[Martain]

I wish I'd found this thread while it was still beginning. Though I post now I expect I will not get nearly as much feedback now as I would have then.

I thought to perhaps pull specific quotes from the book "The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil" by H. Verlan Andersen but as a large portion of the book deals upon this topic, and the book is in PDF format... I'm not going to do so.

Backroads, any LDS who wants to be convinced as to the correctness of your husbands line of thinking need read nothing further than this book.

Backroads, if your husband wants prophetic and scriptural support for his line of thinking in order to validate his current view, he need look no further than this book.

Even better, anyone can read this book for free by going here.

Although I didn't take everything I wanted to share, I did write some of it up which I'll post below.

President McKay's Counsel to Educators:

The late President David O. McKay's views on socialism and welfare-statism were expressed in a letter dated May 25, 1967, written to Ernest L. Wilkinson, President of Brigham Young University. This letter, which gave instructions regarding what should and should not be taught regarding these matters, was regarded of sufficient importance that the entire Board of Trustees unanimously approved it

as the policy of the Board of Trustees for the guidance of the Board, the University Administration, and present and prospective members of the faculty.

Copies of the letter have been sent out to faculty members each year for the past several years along with their teaching appointments. In this letter, President McKay first called attention to

recent disturbing events in our country--such as an alarming increase in nearly all categories of crime, divorce, juvenile and adult delinquency, riots at colleges, strikes of school teachers, civil disorders which go far beyond peaceable assemblies, 'the resurrection of pagan philosophy that God is dead, demoralizing movies, television programs which encourage lewd and lascivious conduct

Then he traced these evils--in part at least--to the welfare-state:

I cannot help but think that there is a direct relationship between the present evil trends which I have above mentioned, and the very marked tendency of the people of our country to pass on to the state the responsibility for their moral and economic welfare. This trend to a welfare state in which people look to and worship government more than their God, is certain to sap the individual ambitions and moral fiber of our youth unless they are warned and rewarned of the consequences. History, of course is replete with the downfall of nations who, instead of assuming their own responsibility for their religious and economic welfare, mistakenly attempted to shift their individual responsibilities to the government.

After having condemned the welfare-state in those terms, he went on to connect its doctrines with the socialistic state and to warn faculty members to avoid advocating either:

I am aware that a university has the responsibility of aquainting its students with the theories and doctrines which are prevalent in various disciplines, but I hope that no one on the faculty of Brigham Young University will advocate positions which cannot be harmonized with the views of every prophet of the Church, from the Prophet Joseph Smith on down, concerning our belief that we should be strong and self-reliant individuals, not dependent upon the largess of government. None of the doctrines of our Church give any sanction to the concept of a socialistic state.

Heck, if I had the money I'd pay people to read this book.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Martain

[Backroads]

Martain, that does look awesome.

I guess, having been in the public school system in a Title 1 school where half the kids couldn't even get regular meals at home, I have to wonder what would happen to said kids in a fully privatized system. Would there really be enough support from charities for those who honestly just can't get enough money together to educate their kids?

Perhaps I'm just used to the system. My husband and I have talked more about it, and he admits that if we were to go privatized, we would have to give a few years' warning and change laws about school attendance and even child labor laws so kids that can't afford school could at least be doing something useful.

[Colirio]

We can discuss which educational blanket best covers society all day and get nowhere. As earlier stated, the responsibility to educate children falls directly to the parents. That is doctrine.

If the child doesn't learn to love learning, then whatever system is being used is failing them. You cannot pour knowledge into a person. Helping them learn to love learning is the key to their success in life, not what certification hangs on their wall.

A person getting a degree in something does not mean they got an education in something.

If a child can gain the desire to learn, then any education system that has been discussed affords an opportunity for them to gain an education. Likewise, if they don't want to learn, each system becomes a daily torture factory.

The problem with public education is that it is filled with people who don't want to be there, teachers and students alike. It makes it tough on those who WANT to gain an education and those who want them to give them an education.

Rant time:

The real question for me, when it comes to public schooling, is what type of education are my kids getting besides reading, writing, and arithmetic? They ring a bell, the kids start learning. They ring a bell, the kids eat lunch. They ring a bell, they go back to learning. They ring a bell, the kids go home.

Those same kids grow up and get a "job" where a clock is punched, they start working. They punch a clock, and go eat lunch. They punch a clock, go back to work. They punch a clock, they go home.

Are we teaching kids or training Pavlov's dogs?

Unless the child has the parental support and guidance, regardless what educational system is used, they will most likely become another social drone and then another social drain.

/rant

[Guest]

While this really is a good system, I can't help but think we couldn't use vouchers with public money in a fully privatized system. Property owners probably wouldn't want their taxes going to private schools in a world where public schools don't exist, so there wouldn't be any money to put into vouchers for those unable to afford private school tuition.

I don't understand your post Backroads. How is this different than, say, money going to Food Stamps where the government gives people money for them to take to any grocery store they choose in the absence of Public Groceries?

It's not "money going to private schools" it's money going into Education. You can choose to take it anywhere you want - private school, home school, co-op school, parochial school, etc., as long as it meets accreditation requirements. And I will tell you - with that system, you will find the brightest educators open up schools everywhere to compete with all other schools for the privilege of educating children - more efficient, more cost-effective, results-oriented schools where every child can benefit. In the current system, only those who avail of public education can benefit of education subsidy while those who cannot thrive in the public school system and opt to go private or home school get to pay double - education tax plus the full cost of education.

[annewandering]

change laws about school attendance and even child labor laws so kids that can't afford school could at least be doing something useful.

Did you actually think this through before saying it? You think its acceptable to put children of families with little money to work instead of school?

Seriously?