Big Heaven, Little Hell

[phi39]

I talked with a few elders about 3 weeks ago, and we definitely left as friends. They made this point which i've been contemplating:

"Mormonism has a very big heaven and a very small hell, while evangelical Christianity has a very small heaven and a very, very big hell."

I believe I answered them with Romans chapter 1 and 9 saying essentially that we have rebelled against God and that he has a right to do whatever he wants with his creation in the first place. Of course, we agreed to disagree. We can go down this track if you want, however...

My question (which did not come to me at the time) is this: wouldn't the Hell/Outer Darkness of Mormonism have an infinite population that is always increasing?

I know that no LDS scripture or revelation would say so, and that this is more speculation than anything else, but here is why I ask: I know that it is a commonly held belief among LDS (though not official canonized doctrine) that the process of exaltation has been going on from all eternity, there was never a beginning to it, nor will there be an end. Also, in D&C 132 it describes exaltation as procreating new spirits forever, and logically those spirits would need to live an earthly life themselves to have an opportunity for exaltation. Those earthly lives would need to be lived on a world with sin in it in order for exaltation to be possible (2 Nephi 2), and where there is sin there will inevitably be sinners who end up in hell. I do not know of any provision in LDS teachings for this process to end.

So if the process of exaltation which requires the existence of sin has been going on from all eternity then the population of hell/outer darkness must be infinite. And if the process will continue forever it will infinitely increase. Granted, that would also mean that the populations of the 3 heavens would also be infinite, but the point is that hell in the LDS view may turn out to be infinite and increasing as well.

In the evangelical view however, there will only ever be a finite number of people who will ever exist. Some are elect and some are not, but those numbers are rightly and sovereignly set by God (Isaiah 10). If a smaller hell is the best possible outcome (and I agree) then doesn't the evangelical view win on this score?

[annewandering]

Sounds like a good point to me but say there are a dozen people on this earth that go to outer darkness. It would still be a pretty small number comparatively. :) Too large still but better than millions by far.

I know of no doctrine that says that our Outer Darkness is the same Outer Darkness of other worlds either. Of course it doesnt really matter in the long run because their Father in Heaven is still going to be very unhappy that they essentially chose that destination.

I think we prefer to think more of how we can be back with our Father in Heaven than the other option.

[rameumptom]

If by evangelical, you mean the Calvinist TULIP. then most will probably go to hell, regardless of the amount of faith or obedience they give God.

In the LDS view, God tries to save as many as he possibly can. Only those who are his complete and utter enemies will go to Outer Darkness. As far as we know, only one mortal has ever officially been noted a Son of Perdition, and that is Cain. Of the tens of billions who have lived on earth, that is a very small number. So, if the Calvinist view sends half of mankind to hell, then it would require many LDS mortal worlds to fill up Outer Darkness to the point of equaling the number in a Calvinist hell.

Nowhere have I read in traditional Christianity that this is God's only creation. I've only read that this is the only one that is known. If God's creations are endless, and they are, then we must figure that eventually he will create other worlds like this one. It doesn't figure that he would do a short term event, if it really didn't matter to him and he already knows all things.

In LDS belief there is uncertainty as to how long Outer Darkness will last for the individual Son of Perdition. LDS scriptures use the term "worlds without end" to describe its length. But in LDS belief, the terms "Endless" and "Eternal" are nuanced words, literally names of God. So "Eternal Punishment is God's Punishment" (D&C 19). We do not know if it has an end or not. My personal belief is that there is an eventual end to it, when the sons of perdition choose to no more rebel, but accept the atonement of Christ.

Even if Outer Darkness lasts forever for those within it, they enter therein because they refuse the atonement, receiving the only kingdom left after rejecting all things of God. If it does grow with the culmination of every world God creates, then it is done by those who have chosen the path of eternal rebel.

I don't think we worry so much about quantity but of quality of the Savior's atonement. To excuse a belief by suggesting such an extreme, ignores the importance and universality of resurrection and redemption. Either God seeks to save all his children, allowing them their agency and providing as large a net to save as possible, or he doesn't. Calvinism admits a Limited Atonement. Personally, I prefer a near Universal Atonement as taught by the LDS. It is the only way one can read John 3:16 and have it fit. Calvinism, however, rejects John 3:16, and should reword it to say, "for God so loved some of the world that he gave his only begotten Son...."

[Blackmarch]

I talked with a few elders about 3 weeks ago, and we definitely left as friends. They made this point which i've been contemplating:

"Mormonism has a very big heaven and a very small hell, while evangelical Christianity has a very small heaven and a very, very big hell."

I believe I answered them with Romans chapter 1 and 9 saying essentially that we have rebelled against God and that he has a right to do whatever he wants with his creation in the first place. Of course, we agreed to disagree. We can go down this track if you want, however...

My question (which did not come to me at the time) is this: wouldn't the Hell/Outer Darkness of Mormonism have an infinite population that is always increasing?

I know that no LDS scripture or revelation would say so, and that this is more speculation than anything else, but here is why I ask: I know that it is a commonly held belief among LDS (though not official canonized doctrine) that the process of exaltation has been going on from all eternity, there was never a beginning to it, nor will there be an end. Also, in D&C 132 it describes exaltation as procreating new spirits forever, and logically those spirits would need to live an earthly life themselves to have an opportunity for exaltation. Those earthly lives would need to be lived on a world with sin in it in order for exaltation to be possible (2 Nephi 2), and where there is sin there will inevitably be sinners who end up in hell. I do not know of any provision in LDS teachings for this process to end.

So if the process of exaltation which requires the existence of sin has been going on from all eternity then the population of hell/outer darkness must be infinite. And if the process will continue forever it will infinitely increase. Granted, that would also mean that the populations of the 3 heavens would also be infinite, but the point is that hell in the LDS view may turn out to be infinite and increasing as well.

In the evangelical view however, there will only ever be a finite number of people who will ever exist. Some are elect and some are not, but those numbers are rightly and sovereignly set by God (Isaiah 10). If a smaller hell is the best possible outcome (and I agree) then doesn't the evangelical view win on this score?

according to lds theology only 1/3 of heaven rebelled against god. If we assune that there were an infinit number of occupants of heaven then yes the occupation of hell would be infinite... but on the other hand the occupation of heaven would still be greater and also infinite.

I don't think the elders were talking about the actual size of heaven and hell tho, rather more referring to how many or the rate of how many would be going to either after the final judgement in regards to those who have born born to this earth;

God provides very much so that people do not have to be consigned to the outer darkness/hell/torment forever... even if they do not make it to be able to share the throne CHrist has for them.

[JudoMinja]

It is my personal belief, not doctrine, that the "size" of outer darkness will continue to decrease while heaven will continue to increase. Here's why:

Our very existence began as "intelligence" or beings of "spirit, light, and truth". All light and truth comes from God and increases as we seek out a path toward knowledge and perfection. Those who have been cast into darkness rejected this plan of progression. If you reject progression, how can you progress? You can't. An act of rebellion against God is an act of rebellion against existence itself.

Any talent you don't work on eventually becomes lost and forgotten. Your memory and ability fades with time. If something is to increase and grow, it needs to be worked on. Our spirits are no different. When we choose laziness and the chains of addiction or sin, our progression works backwards. The farther we fall into this pit, the more "light" and understanding we lose. It is not possible to remain stationary- we either move forward or backward.

We are naturally inclined toward progression. No matter how slowly we move forward, no matter how trapped an individual may have become, as long as that individual is striving to progress, a place in heaven will be granted with the Savior making up for that individual's lack. Not everyone in heaven will be exhalted. The numbers here will be small- only those who truly excelled in progression. But exhaltation is not the only place in heaven. Heaven is a place for spirits of progression, a place to continue increasing in light and truth. It will continue to grow exponentially, as all the spirits within continue to grow in knowledge, understanding and ability.

The number of people who actively rebell and turn away from this path of progression is going to be so very small. Outer darkness is not for those who've sinned or even those who've lived a life of almost nothing but sin. Even the liars and adulterers and thieves etc have a place in heaven. The only way to end up in outer darkness is to utterly reject and turn away from God and progression- to see the light and deny it, to be given knowledge and cast it aside, to actively seek to thwart his plan. With an eternity of this rebellious attitude, eventually all light will be lost, and such beings will cease to be.

As the plan continues and new intelligences are gathered and given the opportunity to choose, some will certainly rebell- but such rebellion leads to their ultimate destruction and the plan of God will continue to roll forth.

[Just_A_Guy]

If a smaller hell is the best possible outcome (and I agree) then doesn't the evangelical view win on this score?

The best possible outcome is a larger heaven, not necessarily a smaller hell.

[mnn727]

There is a BIG difference between Salvation and Exaltation.

Almost all will be saved and will reside in one kingdom or another of Heaven, this is Salvation.

Fewer will be exalted, only those that eventually learn to be like our Father in Heaven. this is Exaltation.

[Traveler]

phi39,

Just because something is infinite does not mean it has “size” and even though something is increasing does not mean its size is increasing. Since you started by talking about numbers - let’s examine number theory to demonstrate the principles in question. According to number theory there are an infinite number of numbers. In addition any two numbers selected there are an infinite number of numbers between them. This gives us an infinite number of infinite numbers of which there are still infinite numbers between the infinite numbers - but we are not done yet because this description of infinite numbers is unbounded which means it can continue on into infinity.

But there is another problem that should be in part obvious - that is that even though there are an infinite number of numbers there is no increase of numbers or of the infinite number of infinite numbers. There can be neither increase nor decreases in numbers or infinite numbers. Because if something that was infinite either increased or decreased that would constitute proof that it was not infinite.

Something can be so large that it seems infinite - the universe sort of falls into that category. Or at least what we think is a universe - but our universe may be an unbounded universe that is in essence expanding into itself. Or it may be bounded but increasing and expanding - but the latest discoveries of dark matter and dark energy currently seem to stand as proof that the universe is finite.

But then there is at least one other possibility - that makes the whole question unbounded - that is that we really do not know the beginning or the end (which makes Isaiah 46:10 a paradox - or does it?).

As is often the case in rhetorical logic - the answer is not “the answer” but rather the response to the question. Thus if the question is flawed the answer of necessity, is flawed. In theological terns it is both important and necessary to understand that Hell is bounded and that the souls that choose and desired to exist there are bounded or become souls in bondage. And if the boundaries are fixed then they cannot increase. But if the boundaries are not fixed then hell does not exist.

So the answers is - we cannot know - yet.

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

wouldn't the Hell/Outer Darkness of Mormonism have an infinite population that is always increasing?

...

So if the process of exaltation which requires the existence of sin has been going on from all eternity then the population of hell/outer darkness must be infinite. And if the process will continue forever it will infinitely increase. Granted, that would also mean that the populations of the 3 heavens would also be infinite, but the point is that hell in the LDS view may turn out to be infinite and increasing as well.

Heh. I've never thought about it like that before. It may just be that I lack the brain power to comprehend math once we start talking about infinity, or it may be that our mortal corporeal brains aren't able to comprehend - but this seems like one of the mysteries that just don't get answered in the mortal realm.

Although one could probably make some good fiction out of speculating. Let's say the infinite number of sons of perdition break out and start waging war on the various kingdoms of heaven. Our infinity is much bigger - or is it? Will our infinite resources be enough to win the war? Outer darkness plays dirty, but Mother Theresea has been studying karate since she got here.

Someone write the book or make the movie - I'd love to read it or see it.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Not everyone in heaven will be exhalted. The numbers here will be small- only those who truly excelled in progression. But exhaltation is not the only place in heaven. Heaven is a place for spirits of progression, a place to continue increasing in light and truth. It will continue to grow exponentially, as all the spirits within continue to grow in knowledge, understanding and ability.

But only with exaltation can a person have the fullness of knowledge, the other Kingdoms are limited in their knowledge and their glory.

Gospel Principles says in chapter 47, talking about what is different about exaltation from the other glories: "5.They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20). President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to His commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:36; italics in original)."

[Traveler]

Okay - since no one seems to have "gotten" my first post - perhaps two cryptic. We may be making much to do about nothing thinking that sides are being drawn and boundaries being made? Maybe we will all be in relatively the same place - and that the light or darkness, intelligence or ignorance are not external restrictions forced upon us but in reality limitations we bring on ourselves such that what we do and the excuses we make for what we should have or could have done are what limits us or allows us to walk free.

Just a thought to consider - maybe we are our own limitation - maybe the scriptures are “true” - as we think in our core (heart) so we become. Maybe I am that I am; is a foreshadowing of we will what we will.

The Traveler

[annewandering]

Okay - since no one seems to have "gotten" my first post - perhaps two cryptic. We may be making much to do about nothing thinking that sides are being drawn and boundaries being made? Maybe we will all be in relatively the same place - and that the light or darkness, intelligence or ignorance are not external restrictions forced upon us but in reality limitations we bring on ourselves such that what we do and the excuses we make for what we should have or could have done are what limits us or allows us to walk free.

Just a thought to consider - maybe we are our own limitation - maybe the scriptures are “true” - as we think in our core (heart) so we become. Maybe I am that I am; is a foreshadowing of we will what we will.

The Traveler

We always hear that we make our own 'hell' so maybe you have a point. We are in, and will be in, where we are inside. If we cling to anger, hatred, fear and pride then we place ourselves in that same place of anger, hatred, fear and pride. If we can conquer those things, and replace them with positive traits, then we advance ourselves to a better place. One that is closer to God.

Still we can not say, at this time, how far we can advance in improvement after death and its best to not dwell on that and just take care of that business here. Honestly, I have never heard that a person in outer darkness had any chance of progressing out of it. Would be nice to think they can and would but.....

[phi39]

To everyone:

Thank you for satisfying (humoring?) my curiosity! It was very kind of you. I cannot respond in full now, but I will soon.

Outer darkness plays dirty, but Mother Theresea has been studying karate since she got here. --Loudmouth

dude, you get the awesome award for the day in my book. that was hilarious!

[Seminarysnoozer]

Okay - since no one seems to have "gotten" my first post - perhaps two cryptic. We may be making much to do about nothing thinking that sides are being drawn and boundaries being made? Maybe we will all be in relatively the same place - and that the light or darkness, intelligence or ignorance are not external restrictions forced upon us but in reality limitations we bring on ourselves such that what we do and the excuses we make for what we should have or could have done are what limits us or allows us to walk free.

Just a thought to consider - maybe we are our own limitation - maybe the scriptures are “true” - as we think in our core (heart) so we become. Maybe I am that I am; is a foreshadowing of we will what we will.

The Traveler

Maybe because this, what you are saying, is pretty well accepted. I don't think I have ever thought anything different. It has always been - 'are you in or are you out?' kind of a program. The 'restriction' is always internal based in how much we are wanting to be like God and Jesus. What price are we willing to pay to be like them? That is an internal restriction.

However strongly one believes this though, I think, also determines how strongly they believe that the result of the test we find ourselves in right now will be permanent. Because if we truly say, 'in our heart', that we are 'out' then we wouldn't waver on that, it will always be that we are out just as strongly as someone who receives exaltation would never say - 'okay, I've had enough, let me try a lesser kingdom now.'

[Dove]

Hi, phi39;

I appreciate you well though out question. You certainly seem to be studying our beliefs and doctrine and to have come here not to argue; but, to get answers. Thanks much.

As far as I understand, and by what you have written, it makes sense to me. Probably yes, if spirits are eternally increasing; then there would be an infinite increase to "outer darkness" as well.

I don't know if you are aware of the parameters as to how one is "ordained unto this condemnation." You quoted the Doctrine and Covenants in your op. Doctrine and Covenants 76:25-38 goes into depth about the "sons of perdition," those who warrant outer darkness.

I was taught that the only people who will be sent there are those who have been in the presence of God, the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, have known them by the Holy Spirit, and then have rebelled against them.....The people who have done this are few and far between; but, we do believe there are those that have brought upon themselves this punishment.

I'm not so concerned about the number of people who are condemned to this so much as I am about whether or not "outer darkness" is a fair and just punishment for those who receive it. There are many scriptures in the Book of Mormon that speak of God being just as well as merciful. (In the Bible as well.)

I believe a key principal that is rather unique to our (LDS) beliefs is the concept of agency. That, because of the fall and atonement of Jesus Christ, we are allowed to "choose" which kingdom we end up in. I like Traveler's last post about "we are what we are, so we will what we will."

And, according to the teachings of the Book of Mormon, the more knowledge of God and His ways we are given, the more accountable we are to God to live true to Him, His commandments, and the further enlightenment by the Spirit we have received. So, the teaching of "outer darkness" makes a lot of sense to me in the greater context of LDS doctrine.

To say it in another way, it highlights to me what happens to the person who is taken into the bosom of God the Father and His Son, only to turn around and reject them. Not a pretty consequence.

I'm so grateful for the atonement of Jesus Christ; for that has made it possible for me to have choice. I know the difference it makes in my happiness when I strive to follow Him (which means to me a great deal "living true to my religion") rather than those very unhappy hours when I have allowed myself to turn away. I am always happier when I am striving to follow Him.

Dove

Edited March 28, 2012 by Dove
corrections

[Dove]

Okay - since no one seems to have "gotten" my first post - perhaps two cryptic. We may be making much to do about nothing thinking that sides are being drawn and boundaries being made? Maybe we will all be in relatively the same place - and that the light or darkness, intelligence or ignorance are not external restrictions forced upon us but in reality limitations we bring on ourselves such that what we do and the excuses we make for what we should have or could have done are what limits us or allows us to walk free.

Just a thought to consider - maybe we are our own limitation - maybe the scriptures are “true” - as we think in our core (heart) so we become. Maybe I am that I am; is a foreshadowing of we will what we will.

The Traveler

Hello, Traveler;

I think I was able to follow your first post a great deal. I would have to go back and reread it though to know whether or not I agreed. Something about an infinite amount of numbers that neither increase or decrease; but, are still infinite......I personally believe that, because I am in a finite state of being right now, I cannot understand what "infinity" entails.

Regardless, I always appreciate what you contribute to LDS net. I look forward to reading your posts and getting my head around what you have written. You have been a long standing contributor here. Hope your duration continues for a long time to come....

Dove

[NeuroTypical]

So, I brought up this notion to my wife, who is not only the wiser of us, but also has been on a first name basis with real evil at various points in her life. She said she didn't mind me making light of the issue, but she doesn't take the matter lightly. She thinks of the issue of an infinitely large number of sons of perdition in the following way: You know Yellowstone National Park? They have bubbling cauldrons of black mud there, hot and dangerous enough to flay the skin off of anyone who gets too close. Some say the cauldrons are not too deep - only a few hundred feet. Others say it's basically bottomless, as far as humans are concerned anyway. Her take on it, is she doesn't care one way or the other - just for the love of pete don't go poking around in it, or you'll get burned.

[Traveler]

another point - and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Mormons don't see the literal fire-and-brimstone type hell that others do. Outer darkness is just a place of separation for spirits who need to be in time-out so to speak. If they will hurt people, the simple solution is to just take away their bodies so they cannot physically touch/harm anything, and then place them far away from others. If they feel tortured - it is their own mind that hurts them, not anyone else. To me it is "eternal life" vs. "eternal death" - plant vs. rock, plants grow... I see outer darkness as just a place for those who choose not to grow.

I agree and very much believe that the outer darkness is not a literal fire-and-brimstone kind of thing. Fire-and-brimstone give off way too much light for a place called "Outer Darkness". I also agree with our thought of "choose". I do not think they are sent off to such a place but that they go to such a place as an "adjustment" - because they refuse to abide anywhere else because they cannot stand the "order" that is prevalent.

I also like CS Lewis concept in his "Great Divorce". That there are buses that regularly leave Hell for heaven empty. And among those refusing to leave are some that think themselves righteous but just in Hell temporarily to convince the hell bound citizens to repent and go back to heaven.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I agree and very much believe that the outer darkness is not a literal fire-and-brimstone kind of thing. Fire-and-brimstone give off way too much light for a place called "Outer Darkness". I also agree with our thought of "choose". I do not think they are sent off to such a place but that they go to such a place as an "adjustment" - because they refuse to abide anywhere else because they cannot stand the "order" that is prevalent.

I also like CS Lewis concept in his "Great Divorce". That there are buses that regularly leave Hell for heaven empty. And among those refusing to leave are some that think themselves righteous but just in Hell temporarily to convince the hell bound citizens to repent and go back to heaven.

The Traveler

What do you mean by "adjustment"?

[Dove]

Seems to me that the severity of "outer darkness" is being downplayed quite a bit in the last few posts....

Did anyone bother to read the scripture references I listed to study this topic?

They are pretty stark in their description. For those who are interested, here they are;

Doctrine and Covenants 76:30-38;

"And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he (Satan) made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us;

Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome and to deny the truth and defy my power-

They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come-

Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified Him unto themselves to an open shame.

These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels-

And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of His wrath....."

Wow, this kind of blows me away......

I can only imagine how terrible it will be. I struggle with psychiatric issues. There have been times when I have ran out of my very expensive meds, not being able to afford them and having had no insurance~

The withdrawal I felt from not having them was absolute torture to my psyche. I say this in all seriousness....The pain was so intense I would end up in the hospital to get help....

I look at "the lake of fire and brimstone" as symbolic to the misery of spirit and mind people in this punishment go through. My only hope is that the suffering they experience is not eternal. It does say in the last of the quote, "after the sufferings of his wrath." This denotes to me that their suffering will have an end. Whew.

Dove

[phi39]

Here is an "at a glance" response to your answers. There are also some very good posts that I want to respond to more specifically.

You all gave a wide spectrum of answers, but with two common denominators. The consensus seemed to be that whether there will be less or more, finite or infinite numbers of people in outer darkness, it is irrelevant because they have sent or relegated themselves to it. Your main concern is to maintain God's justice by affirming their free agency. Also, no one here likes the thought of massive quantities of people suffering that fate and so you want to believe that a minimal number end up that way, and some of you even said that those who do may eventually cease to exist (though there is no LDS source that would go that far).

In a sense then, you have indirectly answered my question by exposing the Elders' argument as self defeating. You cannot criticize the Evangelical view of hell (that is, how many will be there) when you yourself admit that God is righteous to allow (even passively) such a thing to happen to even one person. Did you know that you were Calvinists already? (wink-wink). 'But God tries to save them, and they refuse!' Yes, but it was God who was righteous in allowing a world of sin to exist which would guarantee the fall of some. Doesn't the PGP teach this? Big hell, little hell, infinite hell, or even the cessation of existence, God is still holy and righteous to allow it.

Something that also struck me was this: while you see yourselves as owing general salvation and the opportunity of exaltation to Jesus' Atonement, you must then save, progress, grow ,or advance yourselves to attain the complete eternal life/exaltation. Likewise, those in outer darkness fail to do so. You then make yourselves into your own personal saviors or condemners.

But it is the Lord who saves (Jesus means "Yahweh Saves," Matthew 1:21, Psalm 37:40). Have you ever given thought to the possibility that our agency is corrupt and cannot save us (Romans 8:7)? What if we do not begin at a neutral stance with God, but as something more like apostates in outer darkness (Romans 1:21, 3:10-12)? What if God then, is in the business of saving his apostate enemies (Romans 5:8-10)?

[SanctitasDeo]

Something that also struck me was this: while you see yourselves as owing general salvation and the opportunity of exaltation to Jesus' Atonement, you must then save, progress, grow ,or advance yourselves to attain the complete eternal life/exaltation. Likewise, those in outer darkness fail to do so. You then make yourselves into your own personal saviors or condemners.

But it is the Lord who saves (Jesus means "Yahweh Saves," Matthew 1:21, Psalm 37:40). Have you ever given thought to the possibility that our agency is corrupt and cannot save us (Romans 8:7)? What if we do not begin at a neutral stance with God, but as something more like apostates in outer darkness (Romans 1:21, 3:10-12)? What if God then, is in the business of saving his apostate enemies (Romans 5:8-10)?

These two paragraphs were particularly interesting to me. I have thought a lot about what I am doing and thinking when I make good or bad choices, and I noticed that in each instance I have been in a different frame of mind. I make good choice when I am under the influence of the Spirit of God. The things I have done in my life that I am particularly proud of, I have done in Him, with Him. When I act alone, which I would call rebellion against God, I act in the flesh and do things that are not pleasing to Him.

I don't think I can say that I am the one causing my growth or advancement or what have you. It is a gift from God. I am not my own personal savior. All salvation and exaltation is made possible by him.

The prophet Mormon said:

"But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God." (Moroni 7: 13).

While thinking about this idea last year, these words came to me:

"I am a broken bird

who hobbles,

limping to an early death,

but snatched from fate

and fixed to fly,

beyond the best of birds

to uncover all beauty in flight

beyond my imagination.

Make me to fly, to be with thee.

It is only without myself that I can soar."

This is how I feel about it. Now, I am not a Calvinist. I don't believe that God has arbitrarily chosen who to keep and who to throw into hell regardless of what they do. I believe he calls to everyone throughout their lives. They continually have choices whether or not to listen, not matter where they are on the path to him. When they listen, they invite His Spirit to act in their lives and, through the grace of Christ, allow their choices to bring them to Him. They can choose not to listen, as well.

When Paul talks of the law in Romans 3, he is referring to the Law of Moses. He is arguing against the idea that a person can save themselves through their own righteousness. That person cannot have faith in Christ because he believes he is sufficient unto himself.

A person who has faith in Christ, who chooses to listen to the call of the Spirit of God, enters into a partnership with Him to learn how to choose in faith, rather than choosing according to his own faulty reason and strength.

"Righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

I believe that it truly is all people who are justified freely if they choose to enter into this partnership with Him. I choose that partnership over again every day. This is not boasting. It is an admission of my own weakness. I need Christ. I cannot do this without him.

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I hope I have understood you correctly. I have tried to write as clearly as possible about something that I find complicated and personal. Thank you for the opportunity to consider this. It is a good thing to think about on the eve of General Conference. You have inspired me to reread Romans.

[NeuroTypical]

Did you know that you were Calvinists already?

I like you phi. You remind me a little of me, back when I used to go to the countercult reachout forums and argue with people who had a beef with mormons. I did my absolute best to be polite, civil, open, honest, and deliver blows softly.

I hope you stick around. Just a reminder about the forum rules. If you can stay on the positive side of them (especially #1), I think we'll all get along just fine.

I do have a question - and forgive me if you've already stated this elsewhere. Are you a Calvinist? If so, please go to the Christian Beliefs board and start a thread on Calvinism. I'd relish the chance to learn more about it. I have to admit, until you, every single Calvinist I've run into has been on the rude and uncivil side. I've been hoping to find a nice one.

[skippy740]

Completely off topic: everytime I see the thread title "Big Heaven, Little Hell"... why does it remind me of the disney movie Aladdin?

PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWERS! [shrinks down inside the lamp] Itty-bitty living space!

Sorry. I now return you back to your thread in progress. :)

[Dove]

Here is an "at a glance" response to your answers. There are also some very good posts that I want to respond to more specifically.

You all gave a wide spectrum of answers, but with two common denominators. The consensus seemed to be that whether there will be less or more, finite or infinite numbers of people in outer darkness, it is irrelevant because they have sent or relegated themselves to it. Your main concern is to maintain God's justice by affirming their free agency. Also, no one here likes the thought of massive quantities of people suffering that fate and so you want to believe that a minimal number end up that way, and some of you even said that those who do may eventually cease to exist (though there is no LDS source that would go that far).

In a sense then, you have indirectly answered my question by exposing the Elders' argument as self defeating. You cannot criticize the Evangelical view of hell (that is, how many will be there) when you yourself admit that God is righteous to allow (even passively) such a thing to happen to even one person. Did you know that you were Calvinists already? (wink-wink). 'But God tries to save them, and they refuse!' Yes, but it was God who was righteous in allowing a world of sin to exist which would guarantee the fall of some. Doesn't the PGP teach this? Big hell, little hell, infinite hell, or even the cessation of existence, God is still holy and righteous to allow it.

Something that also struck me was this: while you see yourselves as owing general salvation and the opportunity of exaltation to Jesus' Atonement, you must then save, progress, grow ,or advance yourselves to attain the complete eternal life/exaltation. Likewise, those in outer darkness fail to do so. You then make yourselves into your own personal saviors or condemners.

But it is the Lord who saves (Jesus means "Yahweh Saves," Matthew 1:21, Psalm 37:40). Have you ever given thought to the possibility that our agency is corrupt and cannot save us (Romans 8:7)? What if we do not begin at a neutral stance with God, but as something more like apostates in outer darkness (Romans 1:21, 3:10-12)? What if God then, is in the business of saving his apostate enemies (Romans 5:8-10)?

Nice bait and switch, Phi

And here I thought you were sincerely interested to learn for yourself, rather than debating it on an LDS thread. Wow, do I feel duped.

Regardless...I am so glad to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

From which thread did you get the impression that "some of you even said that those who do may eventually cease to exist?" I've been reading the threads on this post and none of them stated this.

Just so you know, there is a reason I choose to remain LDS throughout my life, rather than converting to a different religion. Besides all the witnesses of the Holy Ghost that I have had concerning the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, the Godly power of the Holy Priesthood of the LDS church and the many, many prayers I have felt answered concerning my questions concerning LDS doctrine, in the end our doctrine follows closely my life experience that God does not rescue me from the consequences of my choices/actions.

If I get caught speeding, I still pay up the nose for my traffic ticket. If I stop praying and reading scripture, life gets infinitely harder. I stop feeling the Spirit as I can when I do. If I don't clean my house, it gets messy. If I don't eat healthy and exercise, I feel tired all the time and get sick easily, etc., etc., etc. The list can go on and on. The bottom line is that LDS doctrine is the closest to reflecting my life's experiences....That there is opposition in all things, that there is a cause and effect to my choices, and that I have to work for the good things that come my way.

FYI, my husband is a Christian of another faith. I've gone to his meetings and, just last night, I went to a musical put on by the Christian community here in SLC. I did feel the Spirit testify to me of many truths they communicated through quoting the Bible. There was a great deal though, that just didn't feel right to me. Again, there is a reason why I choose to remain LDS.

It gets tiresome to have Christians like you come here to LDS net to dispute and contend with what we believe just to prove you're right and we're wrong. I especially don't appreciate your feigned innocence in starting a seemingly peaceful post and then turning it into a platform for your criticism and critiquing. Enough already.

As has been said, if you really want to discuss your beliefs, go to the section for those of other beliefs. Please at least respect our right to peaceably fellowship with each other here on LDS net. Don't make it a platform to tell us what we believe and why we are wrong.

Dove