Will I still have her? Ending Earthly Marriage vs. Temple Sealing

[yrolg4tseuq]

My wife and I married about 5 months ago after going through a long distance relationship. We were sealed in the temple for time and eternity. Unfortunately due to a lot of third party factors that I will not take the time to mention, and due to her mental instability (she is either bipolar depressive or has extreme mood disorder) our marriage has not been able to be very fulfilling or even happy. I felt as though I was being dragged down and becoming mentally and emotionally ill. We recently separated and are now considering annulling the marriage, taking into consideration what would be best for both of us and our potential future children and the generations to come. (Please understand that I never intended it to end like this, and before coming to this conclusion I wanted to be able say to myself as it says in Jacob 5, "What more could I have done?")

I know that we still love each other very much and that we have always had desires to be happy together and have a family together... It is NOT the case that one of us has been unfaithful or broken a serious commandment.

My question is: If we annul our marriage can we still keep our temple sealing? I would like to think that we could be with each other in the next life and have a happy marriage there without all of the difficulties that have made it almost impossible here in this life. Would it be possible to marry and seal myself to someone else in this life even while my first wife is still alive? ... and then have both of them in the next life?

Any input and answer is welcomed. Thanks.

[Guest]

Have you tried everything to help this problem, meaning therapy, medications, etc.? I wouldn't make any moves without first exploring every possible avenue to improve her health and your relationship.

As for the other part of it, I don't know. My aunt and uncle were sealed in the temple. When their kids were young, she became very mean and hostile and he left her. He quickly remarried (to a nonmember), and then learned that she had a brain tumor that was altering her behavior. She died pretty quickly. Though he stayed inactive most of his life and married to his second wife, toward the end of his life he expressed hope that those sealing ties would still be in effect (he did reactivate in his last years). I don't know what doctrine there is, if any, but I like to think that they are together now.

[Bini]

I may be reading into the original post too much..

So there is no infidelity or abuse in your marriage, correct? But the two of you are unhappy because of a chemical imbalance/depression that has taken a heavy toll upon your marriage, correct? Because of this, both parties are ready to throw in the towel, correct? Now, YOU are asking us if it's possible to essentially skip the "hard times" of your marriage in this life, and yet still be tied to your wife in the next life, where you can then continue in a blissful marriage? My two cents.. If there's no infidelity or abuse, this marriage is salvageable. Depression and chemical imbalances CAN be treated (this doesn't equate to cured). There is hope if you and your wife desire a better quality of life together, versus, ending the marriage. There are many resources out there for those in relationships where one partner has (for lack of a better word) a mood disorder. You two love each other, this demon, it's beatable.

[Vort]

My question is: If we annul our marriage can we still keep our temple sealing?

Annulment is not a Church ordinance. It is a social convention, invented by the Catholic Church to allow the dissolution of a marriage, without divorce, by pretending the marriage never happened. If you were to have your marriage annulled, then legally you would be treated as if you were never married. That would have no effect on the temple sealing, which is valid until broken by those with keys (the First Presidency) or the actions of the participants (you, your wife, and God).

I would like to think that we could be with each other in the next life and have a happy marriage there without all of the difficulties that have made it almost impossible here in this life. Would it be possible to marry and seal myself to someone else in this life even while my first wife is still alive? ... and then have both of them in the next life?

Any input and answer is welcomed. Thanks.

If your marriage were annulled, you could be sealed to other women, but your wife could not be sealed during her lifetime to other men unless she first successfully petitioned to dissolve the sealing with you.

As for having her as your wife in the next life: I think we know very, very little about the mechanics of how such things operate. I see no convincing reason to believe you'd be perfectly happy to be married to her after you're dead even though you're miserable now.

My advice is to listen to the Spirit and do what makes sense for you both NOW, in THIS LIFE. Quit worrying about how many women you might be married to in the next.

[Iggy]

If your marriage were annulled, you could be sealed to other women, but your wife could not be sealed during her lifetime to other men unless she first successfully petitioned to dissolve the sealing with you.

This is incorrect Vort. The only way a man can be sealed to two women is when the first wife he is sealed to passes away, then he can be sealed to the second wife. Example is Dallin H. Oakes.

While wife #1 is still alive, regardless if they divorce civilly or not, if he remarries and wishes to be sealed to wife #2, he must petition the First Presidency for a sealing clearance.

This is what my hubby had to do to be sealed to me. Took 18 months from the time he sent the letter to the First Presidency via the Bishop & Stake President to when it was granted by the First Presidency.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Iggy
To bold and put in red the incorrect part of Vort's post.

[beefche]

Actually, Iggy, Vort is correct. In the cases of divorce or annulments, a man who has been sealed previously, must have a sealing clearance in order to be sealed to another woman. He remains sealed but divorced from his first wife. A woman, on the other hand, must petition for a sealing cancellation in order to be sealed to another man. The sealing to the first husband is "broken" or cancelled by the First Presidency so that she can be sealed to another man.

[Iggy]

Actually, Iggy, Vort is correct. In the cases of divorce or annulments, a man who has been sealed previously, must have a sealing clearance in order to be sealed to another woman. He remains sealed but divorced from his first wife. A woman, on the other hand, must petition for a sealing cancellation in order to be sealed to another man. The sealing to the first husband is "broken" or cancelled by the First Presidency so that she can be sealed to another man.

Beefche, re-read Vort's and my post. You are repeating what I said, not Vort. I went back and edited my first post- put in bold and red the part where it is incorrect. Both of them must petition for sealing clearance if both are alive and divorced. Only the woman must petition for a clearance IF the spouse is dead and she is remarrying and wants to be sealed to second husband.

My husband had to petition the First Presidency to cancel his sealing to his exwife, who was/is still alive. Been there, waited patiently for 18 months for the clearance, done that, then got sealed.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Iggy

[beefche]

This is incorrect Vort. The only way a man can be sealed to two women is when the first wife he is sealed to passes away, then he can be sealed to the second wife. Example is Dallin H. Oakes.

While wife #1 is still alive, regardless if they divorce civilly or not, if he remarries and wishes to be sealed to wife #2, he must petition the First Presidency for a sealing clearance.

Ok, what are you trying to say? In the first paragraph, you are saying the only way a man can be sealed to more than one woman is if the other women were dead.

In the second paragraph, you are saying that a man can be sealed to more than one living woman by having a sealing cleared by the First Presidency.

If a man wants to be sealed to another wife and not go through the First Presidency, then yes, the prior wife must be dead and not living. If the prior wife is living, then the only way he can be sealed to another woman is to have the current sealing cleared by the First Presidency.

[Just_A_Guy]

I think you're both right. A man must get a sealing clearance in order to remarry where the ex-wife is still alive; but he does not necessarily need a sealing cancellation for the first marriage.

A woman wishing to remarry in the temple after a divorce needs a full-fledged cancellation, not just a clearance.

[Vort]

This is incorrect Vort. The only way a man can be sealed to two women is when the first wife he is sealed to passes away, then he can be sealed to the second wife. Example is Dallin H. Oakes.

Not so, Iggy. A man can be sealed simultaneously to more than one living woman.

[Iggy]

Not so, Iggy. A man can be sealed simultaneously to more than one living woman.

Document that - please provide a link

[classylady]

Iggy, Vort is correct. My husband is currently sealed to his ex-wife and to me. His ex is still living. After divorce, in order to be sealed to a new spouse, a man needs to get a sealing clearance, a woman needs to get a sealing cancellation. Clearance and cancellation are not the same thing.

[Maureen]

...Both of them must petition for sealing clearance if both are alive and divorced. Only the woman must petition for a clearance IF the spouse is dead and she is remarrying and wants to be sealed to second husband.

Iggy, I think your first post was more correct. When a divorced couple wishes to remarry, the man petitions for a sealing clearance, which clears him to be sealed to another woman. The woman must petition for a sealing cancellation, which cancels her first sealing so she can be sealed to a different man.

My husband had to petition the First Presidency to cancel his sealing to his exwife, who was/is still alive. Been there, waited patiently for 18 months for the clearance, done that, then got sealed.

Your husband actually petitioned for a sealing clearance not cancellation. The clearance does not cancel the sealing to his first wife on his part.

It's hard to say this sometimes, but Vort is correct.

M.

[classylady]

My wife and I married about 5 months ago after going through a long distance relationship. We were sealed in the temple for time and eternity. Unfortunately due to a lot of third party factors that I will not take the time to mention, and due to her mental instability (she is either bipolar depressive or has extreme mood disorder) our marriage has not been able to be very fulfilling or even happy. I felt as though I was being dragged down and becoming mentally and emotionally ill. We recently separated and are now considering annulling the marriage, taking into consideration what would be best for both of us and our potential future children and the generations to come. (Please understand that I never intended it to end like this, and before coming to this conclusion I wanted to be able say to myself as it says in Jacob 5, "What more could I have done?")

I know that we still love each other very much and that we have always had desires to be happy together and have a family together... It is NOT the case that one of us has been unfaithful or broken a serious commandment.

My question is: If we annul our marriage can we still keep our temple sealing? I would like to think that we could be with each other in the next life and have a happy marriage there without all of the difficulties that have made it almost impossible here in this life. Would it be possible to marry and seal myself to someone else in this life even while my first wife is still alive? ... and then have both of them in the next life?

Any input and answer is welcomed. Thanks.

Yes, it would be possible to divorce or annul your marriage and then marry and seal yourself to someone else in this life even while your first wife is still alive. But, would your first wife even want you in the next life if you abandoned her in this life? Will your first/current wife ever remarry? She may be able to get her life in order, or not, and may find someone else who will love her for who she is and is willing to stick it out. I would think she would want to be sealed to that sort of man, rather than one who is not willing to stay with her through thick or thin. Also, if I was the second wife, I'm not so sure I would trust you to stay in the current marriage when things got tough. And, I can see all sorts of problems developing in your second marriage, when the second wife knows that you still love your first wife. Unless your second wife has a very strong self-image and is very secure in your relationship, she is going to be very unhappy wondering when you're going to leave her and perhaps return to your first wife. I don't see a happy second marriage.

Edited June 4, 2012 by classylady

[Guest]

Yep, Vort is right on the sealing...

But, so he won't outgrow his breeches I'll go ahead and correct this one:

Annulment is not a Church ordinance. It is a social convention, invented by the Catholic Church to allow the dissolution of a marriage, without divorce, by pretending the marriage never happened. If you were to have your marriage annulled, then legally you would be treated as if you were never married. That would have no effect on the temple sealing, which is valid until broken by those with keys (the First Presidency) or the actions of the participants (you, your wife, and God).

It is not a social convention in the Catholic Church.

In the Catholic Church, there is the sacrament of Marriage - a covenant between you, your spouse and God - sealed by Priesthood authority. Yes, this marriage is a mortal marriage because Catholics do not believe that marital relationships transcend death. But, just because it is mortal doesn't mean that it is not spiritual. Catholic marriages are so spiritual that it cannot be broken/divorced.

Annulment does not "pretend" that the marriage did not happen. Annulment removes a marriage from Church records that were never valid in the first place. For example, using the OP's scenario, a marriage where one spouse has a major mental disorder that was withheld from the other person's knowledge would be grounds for annulment. This would be the same for infertility issues or previous marriages that were withheld from the spouse - these are also grounds for annulment. The reason being - that the marriage was entered into by deception. Another ground for annulment is if it was a "shotgun" marriage. That is, one spouse is forced into the marriage without his full consent - I have a cousin that got forced to marry his wife by the wife's father promising to kill him if he doesn't do so. That marriage can be annulled as it was never valid. My cousin decided to stay in the marriage, so they got remarried "properly".

Annulment is not an easy thing to get. You can't get an annulment by merely citing irreconcilable differences. You can't get an annulment just because the other spouse is adulterous. You can't even get an annulment even if your spouse beats you to a pulp. You can't get an annulment just because the mental disorder that you thought you could handle became too much for you. And you can't remarry in the Catholic Church unless your marriage got annuled or your spouse dies effectively releasing you from the marital covenant.

I'm going to go ahead and address the question that I know everybody is going to ask... "WHAT? You can't dissolve your marriage even if you get beat to a pulp????" Yep. You heard that right. Of course, this does not mean that you cannot leave your spouse. It just means that you cannot dissolve your marriage. That means that you are encouraged to leave the abusive environment and live the rest of your life apart from your spouse. No, sorry, you can't remarry. So yes, in the Catholic Church, be very very very very careful in who you choose to marry. It's a one time shot until death do you part.

Edited June 3, 2012 by anatess

[Wingnut]

My question is: If we annul our marriage can we still keep our temple sealing?

I'm having a hard time understanding why you'd want to keep the sealing, other than to make sure you both had those blessings in place. If you're not willing/able to work for it now, why do you think it will be magically easier in the next life?

[Guest]

Because his wife won't be difficult anymore?

I wonder about this. There are a lot of. . . difficult women in my husband's family. Partially because of trauma, partially some mental illness, but I believe there are choices involved in there, too. They have some awareness of their issues, but instead of using that awareness to grow and work on it, they use it as their pass card to be jerks. Even when they're freed from the difficulties of mortality, I think they'll have to work to develop certain traits. Like tact. And kindness.

[Wingnut]

Because his wife won't be difficult anymore?

But do we know that? I have a hard time with this.

[estradling75]

I'm of the opinion that if you can't or couldn't make it work in this life its not going to magically fall in place for you in the next.

[Guest]

But do we know that? I have a hard time with this.

That's kind of what I'm getting at. Perfect though our bodies may be, the same spirits will possess us.

[yrolg4tseuq]

I can understand some of the doubts that could originate from what I put in the original post. It is often very difficult to analyze or judge well without all of the facts. As I stated in the original post, there are many "third party factors" (and even direct factors) that I don't think proper to expose to public view, which have led to the idea of ending the marriage but conserving the temple sealing. To say the least, I have talked with the temple presidency, bishop of my ward, and even a psychologist(member of the church) that believes this to be a very rare case.

As for the question, I thank those that have given an answer, and for the input of others. I asked the question because I still have hope... we had moments of happiness. It's hard to explain and I wouldn't expect anyone to fully understand.

I guess for now it'll just be put it into God's hands, continue with what we think is the best solution(not just for myself but for my wife also), and let God's will be done.

[Wingnut]

That's kind of what I'm getting at. Perfect though our bodies may be, the same spirits will possess us.

Sorry, I only skimmed over the rest of the post, but I see that now. Whoops!

[BenRaines]

Chapter 35: Life after Death,” Gospel Fundamentals, 195

How can we prepare for the next life?

Our Spirits Live After We Die

We are the spirit children of our Father in Heaven. While we lived with Him in heaven as spirits, we did not have physical bodies. It was part of His plan for us to be born on this earth and for our spirits to receive bodies of flesh and bones. Our spirits are what gives life to our physical bodies while we live on the earth.

Just as to be born was a part of our Father in Heaven’s plan for us, another part of His plan is for us to die. When we die, our spirits leave our bodies. Without the spirit, the body has no life and is placed in a grave.

But our spirits lived before our birth, and they will continue to live after death. When we die, our spirits will go to the spirit world to wait for the resurrection, while the body remains in the grave.

In the spirit world our spirits will have the same form as when we lived on the earth with bodies of flesh and bones. We will look as we do here. We will think the same way and believe the same things as we did here. Those who are righteous in this life will still be righteous. Those who were unrighteous will still be unrighteous. We will have the same desires after we die as we had while on this earth.

Ben Raines

[Gwen]

A side note on the being sealed to 2 living women. I know I've said this before. lol

You can be sealed to two living women with the clearance that is granted after divorce, and that has already been mentioned. However, you have not kept your covenant to the first wife and therefore you have no claim upon those blessings. The sealing is useless and has no effect. So upon death you have no claim upon the blessing of eternal marriage and may as well not have been sealed at all. So in the claiming blessings department, no you are not sealed to more than one living woman at a time. The paperwork may exist but it means nothing and there is no covenant.

[EarlJibbs]

I have talked with the temple presidency, bishop of my ward, and even a psychologist(member of the church) that believes this to be a very rare case.

QUOTE]

Sounds like you already have your answer, but are seeking other opinions as well? I think the "very rare" language is somewhat like when the church says it "strongly discourages" something. Can it be done? Yes, but not very often. It's like the "rare" Ferrari that sold for 35 Million just barely. Is there a 1962 Ferrari 250 GTO made for race driver Stirling Moss and one of 39 of the rare vehicles manufactured during its three-year run that is for sale? Yes, but it's very rare. Not everyone is going to own one, but it exists.

I do think that your question has raised some good conversation here.

Edited June 4, 2012 by EarlJibbs