Limiting God

[mnn727]

I expect you're right. Our preferred mode of expression hides that.

........ The phrase "cafeteria Mormon" means something ugly and unvirtuous just as surely as the phrase "Gay Pride" does, never mind how the individual words might parse.

All depends on how you define words. I don't have a problem with the term 'cafeteria Mormon' and use it to describe someone that does not accept on faith everything they are told (and Thank God, cause I've been told many incorrect things since I converted almost 19 years ago)

I also don't have a problem with teh term 'Gay Pride' -- if you're going to be Gay I'd rather you were not ashamed of it. Now if you mean a 'get in your face' and angry all the time gay person - then no, I am against that.

It all depends on your definitions.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I would argue that unquestioned faith in a dogma, even this Churches dogma, is a lazy persons religion. How many times have you heard a teacher (or someone in a class) claim something that turned out to be not what the Church teaches, just because they never bothered to check what they heard. I would rather be on bended knee for a decade or even two learning a principle than to just accept it without giving it any thought even if I think its a little strange or weird or goes against what I think is right.

----

There is part of my post that you cut that is very relevant to my point of view - I copy it here "I will be the first to admit that I am somewhat of a cafeteria Mormon.Mainly in regards to policies and traditions rather than doctrines. The solid doctrines I am very close to 100% on, however the doctrines and or teachings based on traditions or interpretations not so much."

I think the severity of this issue depends on what a person thinks they are going to be judged by in the end. Are we judged on the final fund of knowledge or what we did with the limited knowledge we have available?

We will be judged by what is in our heart and our faith will be a witness to it. We are not going to be judged on how right and exact we are in every doctrine. Otherwise it would be critical in terms of our salvation to make sure that God delivers all the information to us now. There are many aspects of the "gospel" that have not been revealed. Does that mean that the extent of our salvation is limited? I think you would say no. How is that possible? Because we are not being tested on our fund of knowledge.

The test is what we do with the limited knowledge we have. "Limited" being an important part of the test. Having all knowledge would ruin the test of faith. If we only "believe" in the things that are absolutely known, where is the faith in that approach?

I am not sure why so many want to cut faith out of the picture as if it is an unnecessary and primitive form of learning. That we should somehow jump straight from ignorance to knowledge. That is impossible. I think those people are going to miss the point of this life, that faith in Christ is the only way to learn and to have eternal knowledge and joy. There is no other way. It is perfectly okay to say 'I have faith in this principle but I don't have perfect knowledge about it" and God will judge positively that you have faith and not give the person a demerit for the not knowing. So, why take the doubtful road, the faith road has fewer bad outcomes.

[Sicily510]

I agree it's critical to have faith, though I may lack perfection in such a strict principle it's my limited and own willingness to adhere to such. We can only walk by faith and what we are taught as true principles to be closer to heavenly father. It's human nature to compare and think one more knowledgeable of him than the other without focusing on our own individual faiths and sanctifying ourselves as well as others. That's why this church offers many such knowledge and truth to take it upon themselves to seek heavenly father. And at the same time experience the process of repentence through our loving savior Jesus Christ. I truly believe that with faith our hearts are able to fulfill the task asked of us to help thy neighbors and educate the poor. It's so very hard to be good alone, but with the help of others who abide in faith and understanding it's as though we're moving mountains.

First and foremost faith is our inheritence.

Roman 12:3

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Titus Chapter 3:

Saints must live righteously after baptism.

1. Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

2. To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

3. For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, ad hating one another.

4. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared.

5. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6. Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7. That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

(supports why we must prepare and reprove ourselves and commit with obedience to maintain good works, deeds, thoughts, into our daily lives. This is where limitation is among men and not our heavenly father.Hence the "measure of faith")

9. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and striving about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

(Doesn't this include the topic of this thread? Cafeteria Mormons nit picking what doctrines they want to follow. Questioning where men/women were created from? Discussions that causes contention such as comparing gospels. Leave these questions for those who seek heavenly father individually. If you are a leader in your church it would be wise to be an example to provide through teaching to seek the gospel not question it.)

10. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; (Apostasy, of individuals)

11. Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

(Having the knowledge that I do and not abiding by heavenly fathers principles is condemning myself. It includes forgiving, repenting, baptizing for the remission of my sins. This is the limitation we have not heavenly father. We must be accountable of all the wicked, sins we possess and choose to change it through Jesus Christ atonement.)

12. When I shall send Artemas unto thee, or Tychicus, be diligent to come unto me to Nicopolis: for I have determined there to winter.

13. Bring Zenas the lawyer and Apollos on their journey diligently, that nothing be wanting unto them.

( Reading this part made me think of what are we to gain from these gods? They have no morals, principles, and they want to be praised for nothing.)

14. And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

(Good works is always fruitful it's a sacrifice we all must be willing to make via tithing (Even for the destitute Tithing?a Commandment Even for the Destitute - general-conference, donation to the poor, sending goods to the store house, educating the people so that we may live in unity that is a limit we as human beings hold not our heavenly father.)

15. All that are with me salute thee. Greet them that love us in the faith. Grace be with you all. Amen.

* Read the beginning chapter of Titus (The Epistle Of Paul To Titus) this is a sweet chapter in the bible.

Some of the verses I would like to share as well....

Moral of my post is from a primary song I loved singing "Search, Ponder, and Pray":

1. I love to read the holy scriptures,

And, ev’ry time I do,

I feel the Spirit start to grow within my heart—

A testimony that they’re true.

Chorus

Search, ponder, and pray

Are the things that I must do.

The Spirit will guide, and, deep inside,

I’ll know the scriptures are true.

2. So, prayerfully I’ll read the scriptures

Each day my whole life through.

I’ll come to understand.

I’ll heed the Lord’s command

And live as he would have me do.

Chorus

Search, ponder, and pray

Are the things that I must do.

The Spirit will guide, and, deep inside,

I’ll know the scriptures are true.

1 Timothy 5:8

But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

[circusboy01]

Avoid Foolish Questions, if you are searching for "The" answer. For that you would pray, or wait for such time as the Lord reveals it. I think it's okay if you just want peoples opinions. Brother Ray.

[FunkyTown]

Avoid Foolish Questions, if you are searching for "The" answer. For that you would pray, or wait for such time as the Lord reveals it. I think it's okay if you just want peoples opinions. Brother Ray.

There is no such thing as a foolish question if that question is sought honestly.

Foolish questions are those ones where you ask knowing you will only accept a specific answer. When we question the nature of God, we have to accept that it might not be what we want to hear.

Does Hell exist? Does God exist? Is God a He, She or Indeterminate? Is there one God, Many or None? What does God want?

If we look at it honestly, there are only a few options available:

1 - There is either one God, many or none.

2 - God is either good, evil or indifferent. And he's either understandably good, understandably evil, understandably indifferent or ineffable, in which case he's one of those three, still, but in a way that prevents us understanding the totality.

3 - If God exists, then either something is wanted by our experience or we're simply a natural byproduct of God's existence. If something is wanted by our experience, then seeking out meaning is vital.

There are a lot of permutations of those three statements, but that is the essence of what I would call the big three questions. Once you understand that, you have to go forward with open eyes.

[HEthePrimate]

"I cannot believe in a God who would torture souls in hell for all eternity."

"I don't believe in the God of the Old Testament. He's angry, and orders killing."

"If the _____ (evangelicals, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, whatever religion one disagrees with...) are right about _____ (hell, predestination, etc.) then I won't believe in God..."

I'm not targeting anyone in particular. Instead, I'm concerned about something I see happening more and more. Instead of the typical young person searching for truth, it seems that many people are on a search for a God or religion that suites their personality, or their personal beliefs. Perhaps it's an outgrowth of post-modernism. After all, if there is no absolute truth, but religion can comfort, all I need to do is find one that fits my predispositions.

THOUGHTS?

So, what if God is evil? Are you saying we should worship him nonetheless?

The Book of Mormon gives a way of determining if something is "of God" or not, in Moroni chapter 7:

12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

Essentially, "by their fruits ye shall know them." In other words, if somebody does something evil, or persuades people to do evil, they (or their message) are not of God.

If someone sins in this life, for example by stealing a car, and fails to repent, it would be just to punish them/have them make restitution to make up for the wrong they did. But torturing somebody for eternity for stealing a car is waaaay over-the-top disproportionate to the crime, and is therefore unjust and evil. Call me a heretic if you want, but I would not worship a God who does that.

I do believe in God, and I believe that God is good. I also understand that I do not understand everything, and that some things that are harsh may be part of God's plan. I do not believe God (normally) causes natural disasters, wars, or poverty, but he does let them happen. I do not believe God tortures people infinitely for committing finite crimes, but I do believe he lets people experience the natural consequences of their sins.

And no, I do not believe he commands people to commit genocide, including killing innocent men, women, and children. God is just, and not a monster.

[Sicily510]

So, what if God is evil? Are you saying we should worship him nonetheless?

The Book of Mormon gives a way of determining if something is "of God" or not, in Moroni chapter 7:

Essentially, "by their fruits ye shall know them." In other words, if somebody does something evil, or persuades people to do evil, they (or their message) are not of God.

If someone sins in this life, for example by stealing a car, and fails to repent, it would be just to punish them/have them make restitution to make up for the wrong they did. But torturing somebody for eternity for stealing a car is waaaay over-the-top disproportionate to the crime, and is therefore unjust and evil. Call me a heretic if you want, but I would not worship a God who does that.

I do believe in God, and I believe that God is good. I also understand that I do not understand everything, and that some things that are harsh may be part of God's plan. I do not believe God (normally) causes natural disasters, wars, or poverty, but he does let them happen. I do not believe God tortures people infinitely for committing finite crimes, but I do believe he lets people experience the natural consequences of their sins.

And no, I do not believe he commands people to commit genocide, including killing innocent men, women, and children. God is just, and not a monster.

Was the wrath that was given upon the people not fore-told if they do not "REPENT" evil? I don't believe it's evil, for they were warned through a prophet of there days. People were so blind by their wickedness and iniquities that they became prideful of themselves because they couldn't fathom the thought of reproving themselves for something they don't know, see or even desire. Thinking about it they were savages, rebels without a cause, desired of flesh and worldy ways, they lived in vain.

That is why it's important to seek Heavenly Father to build your own knowledge (faith) through him and his teachings which were exemplified through Jesus Christ. It's our own individual responsibility to reprove ourselves, to seek Heavenly father, seek our own eternal salvation, no one elses. Just as it is our own responibility to seek moral agency and do as we would in our daily lives accordingly. With the free agency is the understanding of right from wrong and the choice to act accordingly, with moral agency is the willingness and commitment to do right.

[HEthePrimate]

Are you speaking about a particular incident, or in generalities?

Was the wrath that was given upon the people not fore-told if they do not "REPENT" evil? I don't believe it's evil, for they were warned through a prophet of there days.

I'm not sure that forewarning makes much, if any, of a difference. Okay, so God says "If you steal a car, I will torture you for 20 billion years times infinity." Does the warning render the punishment just? Granted, it's better than giving no warning at all, but still.

People were so blind by their wickedness and iniquities that they became prideful of themselves because they couldn't fathom the thought of reproving themselves for something they don't know, see or even desire. Thinking about it they were savages, rebels without a cause, desired of flesh and worldy ways, they lived in vain.

I'm not entirely clear on what you're saying here, but yes, people can be bad.

That is why it's important to seek Heavenly Father to build your own knowledge (faith) through him and his teachings which were exemplified through Jesus Christ. It's our own individual responsibility to reprove ourselves, to seek Heavenly father, seek our own eternal salvation, no one elses. Just as it is our own responibility to seek moral agency and do as we would in our daily lives accordingly. With the free agency is the understanding of right from wrong and the choice to act accordingly, with moral agency is the willingness and commitment to do right.

Okay. I guess. Yes, people have a responsibility to try to do good. I'm with you!

[circusboy01]

There is no such thing as a foolish question if that question is sought honestly.

Foolish questions are those ones where you ask knowing you will only accept a specific answer. When we question the nature of God, we have to accept that it might not be what we want to hear.

Does Hell exist? Does God exist? Is God a He, She or Indeterminate? Is there one God, Many or None? What does God want?

If we look at it honestly, there are only a few options available:

1 - There is either one God, many or none.

2 - God is either good, evil or indifferent. And he's either understandably good, understandably evil, understandably indifferent or ineffable, in which case he's one of those three, still, but in a way that prevents us understanding the totality.

3 - If God exists, then either something is wanted by our experience or we're simply a natural byproduct of God's existence. If something is wanted by our experience, then seeking out meaning is vital.

There are a lot of permutations of those three statements, but that is the essence of what I would call the big three questions. Once you understand that, you have to go forward with open eyes.

The post that you quoted was a comment on #9 in Sicily510's post. I didn't use quote, because I was commenting on just a small portion of her post. Brother Ray

[Maureen]

...Or as Trinitarians would say of G-d - that we become the same essence as that which defines G-d....

Trinitarians don't say that. Infact they say just the opposite. We will share in God's divinity (essense) but we will NOT become the same essense as that which defines God.

M.

[prisonchaplain]

In essence are we not all critics of the G-d in which we do not believe? I am reminded of when I first moved back to Utah to work I met at work a most interesting fellow, that was the president of the Utah chapter of atheists.

I am not sure exactly how it happened but we began to debate publicly (during our lunch hour) the existence of G-d. We actually drew several hundred after a while to listen to the debate. After several weeks; seeming to go no where and finding that my opposition did not seem to understand or respond to my arguments - I ask him to define G-d.

Well that went on for a while but finely when he stated in clear terms his definition of G-d, I conceded the debate and pronounced him the clear winner because I did not believe in any such a being any more than he did.

Since I believe G-d is forgiving, loving and just - therefor there are things that I do not believe G-d will do because he is forgiving, loving and just. But my point in this discussion is that if being forgiving, loving and just is a weakness or limits G-d then I am one who has so limited G-d. I also believe that all things good should be everyone's goal - Something we should desire; not just for ourselves but for all. In reality my belief in G-d is in every way what I think we all should be.

I believe everything that G-d teaches - he is. And I also believe that he does not lie to us and hides from us what he really is. I believe he is honest and teaches us of him that we will be in his likeness and his image. Or as Trinitarians would say of G-d - that we become the same essence as that which defines G-d. We become one with G-d - believing that G-d does indeed have the power to --- As John Chapter 10 verse 33 accuses Jesus of being able to make a man a G-d.

The Traveler

You use the phrase "I believe" a lot in this post. I suspect that your belief is based upon much more than your personal preferences. The things you believe about God are due to some combinaton of spiritual witness, scripture study and reasoning (I'd suggest meditating and reasoning are very similar here).

That said, it has likely happened that some of what you discovered about God through spiritual witness and scripture did not comport with your personal preferences. You may have wrestled with such conflicts.

To me, it is the one who chooses to believe their personal preferences over and against spiritual revelation and scripture who has committed a grave error. Such ones do limit God--at least they attempt to.

I do not see that you are such a person.

[prisonchaplain]

So, what if God is evil? Are you saying we should worship him nonetheless?

I'm saying that by definition God is good and just. What God does--even in the Old Testament--is good and just. We may not understand completely, but I start with those assumptions. When individuals take episodes of the Bible and use them as ammunition to accuse God of evil, I take such a person to be a mocker, a scoffer, and quite often an unbeliever who finds it cute to take Holy Scripture and attempt to turn it on itself, and against the one who inspired it.

[Traveler]

I'm saying that by definition God is good and just. What God does--even in the Old Testament--is good and just. We may not understand completely, but I start with those assumptions. When individuals take episodes of the Bible and use them as ammunition to accuse God of evil, I take such a person to be a mocker, a scoffer, and quite often an unbeliever who finds it cute to take Holy Scripture and attempt to turn it on itself, and against the one who inspired it.

There may be a problem. If, for some reason, there is a flaw in the Bible - Old Testament? then the problem is that the flaw is not with G-d but in the Holy Scriptures. But the flaw may not be in the actual Holy Scriptures but in the translation and trying to understand something given in another time, place and society.

A study of history, in fact, demonstrates that through different eras the Holy Scriptures have been interpreted differently. Some historical examples seem very obvious now but entire nations and sub cultures have misinterpreted the Holy Scriptures on a very grand scale.

For example, 2000 years ago the world's leading experts in scripture - rejected the very G-d that inspired it. We would not have the bible without these experts despite their misunderstanding. How can we think we understand better; when what was written fit their language and culture much better than ours.

Another example; most Christians today recognize the evil brought on the world with the second world war. Millions of innocent people were killed unnecessarily - especially in what is now called the Holocaust. The center of all this evil was in what was known as the 3rd Reich. This was an effort to fulfill the Holy Scriptures prophecies concerning the destruction of the "wicked" (starting with the society that crucified the Christ) and establish the kingdom of G-d.

It is easy to point fingers in history and in the grand scheme of history realize that Judas did not understand the Holy Scriptures very well. But on the night that Judas made his worse mistake - Jesus warned his Apostles that there was a "trader" among them. The apostles that we respect so well today did not recognize the misinterpretations and were, in reality, less sure of their interpretations than they were of the actual trader that they inquired if they were the one that does not understand.

In all my life I have never met a person that seriously believes that they are going to "Hell". And believe me I have met some seriously dark individual. At the same time, I have never met anyone that did not think there are some very good candidates for hell. There are a lot of Christians that are quite sure that just not believing in their interpretations of the Holy Scriptures is sufficient to qualify the candidates of Hell - even to thinking from their interpretations that such are really the only candidates.

So, which is more troublesome - the one that limits G-d because they have misinterpreted Holy Scripture - or the one that correctly understands the scriptures but limits G-d from changing their lives.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Some historical examples seem very obvious now but entire nations and sub cultures have misinterpreted the Holy Scriptures on a very grand scale.

For example, 2000 years ago the world's leading experts in scripture - rejected the very G-d that inspired it. We would not have the bible without these experts despite their misunderstanding. How can we think we understand better; when what was written fit their language and culture much better than ours.

It is true that scripture can be used as a tool of those with their own intentions. It is also valid to say that some have innocently misinterpreted it. An example of the former would be those who said the mention of slavery in the Bible was justification for the horrific abuses that took place under American slavery. An example of the latter, imho, would be the Oneness heresy of modalism (Jesus manifests himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--but it's all just Jesus) that developed in the 1910s.

Another example; most Christians today recognize the evil brought on the world with the second world war. Millions of innocent people were killed unnecessarily - especially in what is now called the Holocaust. The center of all this evil was in what was known as the 3rd Reich. This was an effort to fulfill the Holy Scriptures prophecies concerning the destruction of the "wicked" (starting with the society that crucified the Christ) and establish the kingdom of G-d.

Hitler dabbled in the occult, and the Nazi Party borrowed many rituals from ancient German paganism. The on-going myth that the holocaust was primarily a genocide inspired by the Bible is an error of the worst kind. What may be historically accurate is to say that Hitler convinced Christian clergy to remain strictly apolitical, with promises that if they complied, his government would not interfere with church affairs.

So, which is more troublesome - the one that limits G-d because they have misinterpreted Holy Scripture - or the one that correctly understands the scriptures but limits G-d from changing their lives.

The short answer to your last question is: YES.

[Traveler]

...

Hitler dabbled in the occult, and the Nazi Party borrowed many rituals from ancient German paganism. The on-going myth that the holocaust was primarily a genocide inspired by the Bible is an error of the worst kind. What may be historically accurate is to say that Hitler convinced Christian clergy to remain strictly apolitical, with promises that if they complied, his government would not interfere with church affairs.

...

There are elements of pagan symbols used by Nazis . However, the term "The Third Reich" was not a term from historical paganism but a term with reference to the "Holy Roman Empire" that come to us from traditional Trinitarian Christianity as established by Charlemagne, who was given the title in Christian Tradition as "Defender of the faith". Charlemagne contributed a great deal to Christianity - including much of the modern concepts of clergy and standards for teaching and certification for preaching by qualifications in "Universal" studies or universities.

The official propaganda of the Third Reich was to follow the "religious cleansing" pattern established by Charlemagne (a Christian - not a pagan) that ended pagan worship and society in northern Europe for several generations.

The Traveler

[volgadon]

Hitler dabbled in the occult, and the Nazi Party borrowed many rituals from ancient German paganism. The on-going myth that the holocaust was primarily a genocide inspired by the Bible is an error of the worst kind. What may be historically accurate is to say that Hitler convinced Christian clergy to remain strictly apolitical, with promises that if they complied, his government would not interfere with church affairs.

The culture of antisemitism which spawned the Nazi ideology grew out of Christian antisemitism, which is indeed based on many passages of the New Testament. Some memorable medieval and early modern German expressions of this were the Judensau- popular artwork featuring Jews doing obscene things to sows- and Martin Luther's charmingly entitled tractate, "On the Jews and Their Lies." These inspired Nazi attitudes to the Jews far more than supposedly pagan practices ever did.

[prisonchaplain]

Hitler may have used some antisemitic musings of flawed theologians, but the spirituality that influenced him was occultic and pagan. Perhaps Hitler used all of it for his own philosophical and political ends. Both the History Channel and PBS have broadcast documentaries highlighting the occult and pagan influences on the Nazis--including their rituals.

[HEthePrimate]

I'm saying that by definition God is good and just. What God does--even in the Old Testament--is good and just. We may not understand completely, but I start with those assumptions. When individuals take episodes of the Bible and use them as ammunition to accuse God of evil, I take such a person to be a mocker, a scoffer, and quite often an unbeliever who finds it cute to take Holy Scripture and attempt to turn it on itself, and against the one who inspired it.

You can take it however you want, but I'm being serious. The God I worship does not command people to commit genocide. I am not mocking, I am rejecting the notion that a good and just God would do such a thing.

I am not accusing God of evil--I am saying that what is written in the Bible may not always be an accurate reflection of God's will. Human beings wrote the Bible. They may have been inspired with a message from God, but their own opinions, philosophies, and cultural assumptions may have also crept into what they wrote. I am saying we need to read the Scriptures with a discerning eye.

[volgadon]

Hitler may have used some antisemitic musings of flawed theologians, but the spirituality that influenced him was occultic and pagan. Perhaps Hitler used all of it for his own philosophical and political ends. Both the History Channel and PBS have broadcast documentaries highlighting the occult and pagan influences on the Nazis--including their rituals.

Don't think that I am trying to knock protestants. I am not. You are right that Hitler and the Nazis were influenced by the occult and by what they imagined to be their pagan past, but the fact of the matter is that the antisemitic elements in paganism and the occult were minimal compared to the Catholic-protestant legacy.

[prisonchaplain]

Don't think that I am trying to knock protestants. I am not. You are right that Hitler and the Nazis were influenced by the occult and by what they imagined to be their pagan past, but the fact of the matter is that the antisemitic elements in paganism and the occult were minimal compared to the Catholic-protestant legacy.

You are right. I am focusing on the big picture of German Naziism, and your are more precisely looking at the anti-Jewish element. It's just such a 180 from today, when most Protestants are accused of being too pro-Israel.

[prisonchaplain]

You can take it however you want, but I'm being serious. The God I worship does not command people to commit genocide. I am not mocking, I am rejecting the notion that a good and just God would do such a thing.

I see those passages and assume the Bible is accurate. So, I try to understand why God would order a society to be destroyed. I figure they were so corrupt God was sparing the earth of future generations of evil.

You figure that genocide is always wrong, must be wrong, and so the characters in the story must have misunderstood what God was telling them.

Is my summary fair?

I am not accusing God of evil--I am saying that what is written in the Bible may not always be an accurate reflection of God's will. Human beings wrote the Bible. They may have been inspired with a message from God, but their own opinions, philosophies, and cultural assumptions may have also crept into what they wrote. I am saying we need to read the Scriptures with a discerning eye.

Not everything done in the Bible was God's will, but I do believe everything written was what God wanted written.

[volgadon]

You are right. I am focusing on the big picture of German Naziism, and your are more precisely looking at the anti-Jewish element. It's just such a 180 from today, when most Protestants are accused of being too pro-Israel.

It is indeed a different world. Ideologies change, often for the better.

[Sicily510]

You can take it however you want, but I'm being serious. The God I worship does not command people to commit genocide. I am not mocking, I am rejecting the notion that a good and just God would do such a thing.

I am not accusing God of evil--I am saying that what is written in the Bible may not always be an accurate reflection of God's will. Human beings wrote the Bible. They may have been inspired with a message from God, but their own opinions, philosophies, and cultural assumptions may have also crept into what they wrote. I am saying we need to read the Scriptures with a discerning eye.

"The God I worship does not command people to commit genocide. I am not mocking, I am rejecting the notion that a good and just God would do such a thing."....."I am saying that what is written in the Bible may not always be an accurate reflection of God's will."

I don't recall reading that heavenly father commanded people to commit genocide, please share a verse if you see in the Bible supporting excerpts. I would like to read it because all I've read was the destruction of men upon men, men with no valor or faith, men who questioned the existence of God and his only begotten son. Men who thought that they were wiser than god, men who were evildoers and tricksters. Men who were prophets before christ, christ the living prophet, and prophets after christ. Parables, wisemen story, gospels supporting the examples of Christ, stories about famine, drought, miracles, faith, hope, sinners, satan and his followers, the battle in heaven between good and bad, Jesus Christ Sacrifice and atonement. Baptism by immersion, grace and love of heavenly father, heavenly fathers wrath upon the wickedness and abominations of men, Adam and Eve. Temples, sanctuaries, tabernacles, church, ordinances and organizations. etc The scriptures covers everything. That's why it's Universal!

As LDS members it's in our 8th article of faith that:

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

Bible:

TG Bible; Revelation; Scriptures, Preservation of; Scriptures, Value of; Scriptures, Writing of.

Word:

Isa. 8:20 (16–22).

16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

17 And I will wait upon the Lord, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.

18 Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

19 ¶And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

21 And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse their king and their God, and look upward.

22 And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness.

Correctly:

1 Ne. 13:26 (20–40);

20 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that they did prosper in the land; and I beheld a book, and it was carried forth among them.

21 And the angel said unto me: Knowest thou the meaning of the book?

22 And I said unto him: I know not.

23 And he said: Behold it proceedeth out of the mouth of a Jew. And I, Nephi, beheld it; and he said unto me: The book that thou beholdest is a record of the Jews, which contains the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; and it also containeth many of the prophecies of the holy prophets; and it is a record like unto the engravings which are upon the plates of brass, save there are not so many; nevertheless, they contain the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; wherefore, they are of great worth unto the Gentiles.

24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

30 Nevertheless, thou beholdest that the Gentiles who have gone forth out of captivity, and have been lifted up by the power of God above all other nations, upon the face of the land which is choice above all other lands, which is the land that the Lord God hath covenanted with thy father that his seed should have for the land of their inheritance; wherefore, thou seest that the Lord God will not suffer that the Gentiles will utterly destroy the mixture of thy seed, which are among thy brethren.

31 Neither will he suffer that the Gentiles shall destroy the seed of thy brethren.

32 Neither will the Lord God suffer that the Gentiles shall forever remain in that awful state of blindness, which thou beholdest they are in, because of the plain and most precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, whose formation thou hast seen.

33 Wherefore saith the Lamb of God: I will be merciful unto the Gentiles, unto the visiting of the remnant of the house of Israel in great judgment.

34 And it came to pass that the angel of the Lord spake unto me, saying: Behold, saith the Lamb of God, after I have visited the remnant of the house of Israel—and this remnant of whom I speak is the seed of thy father—wherefore, after I have visited them in judgment, and smitten them by the hand of the Gentiles, and after the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb—I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my gospel, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb.

35 For, behold, saith the Lamb: I will manifest myself unto thy seed, that they shall write many things which I shall minister unto them, which shall be plain and precious; and after thy seed shall be destroyed, and dwindle in unbelief, and also the seed of thy brethren, behold, these things shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles, by the gift and power of the Lamb.

36 And in them shall be written my gospel, saith the Lamb, and my rock and my salvation.

37 And blessed are they who shall seek to bring forth my Zion at that day, for they shall have the gift and the power of the Holy Ghost; and if they endure unto the end they shall be lifted up at the last day, and shall be saved in the everlasting kingdom of the Lamb; and whoso shall publish peace, yea, tidings of great joy, how beautiful upon the mountains shall they be.

38 And it came to pass that I beheld the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the book of the Lamb of God, which had proceeded forth from the mouth of the Jew, that it came forth from the Gentiles unto the remnant of the seed of my brethren.

39 And after it had come forth unto them I beheld other books, which came forth by the power of the Lamb, from the Gentiles unto them, unto the convincing of the Gentiles and the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the Jews who were scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true.

40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.

1 Ne. 14:21 (20–26)

20 And the angel said unto me: Behold one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

21 Behold, he shall see and write the remainder of these things; yea, and also many things which have been.

22 And he shall also write concerning the end of the world.

23 Wherefore, the things which he shall write are just and true; and behold they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time they proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, or, at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, the things which were written were plain and pure, and most precious and easy to the understanding of all men.

24 And behold, the things which this apostle of the Lamb shall write are many things which thou hast seen; and behold, the remainder shalt thou see.

25 But the things which thou shalt see hereafter thou shalt not write; for the Lord God hath ordained the apostle of the Lamb of God that he should write them.

26 And also others who have been, to them hath he shown all things, and they have written them; and they are sealed up to come forth in their purity, according to the truth which is in the Lamb, in the own due time of the Lord, unto the house of Israel.

Book:

TG Book of Mormon

see also BD Ephraim, stick of:

A prophetic reference to the Book of Mormon as a record of one portion of the tribe of Ephraim that was led from Jerusalem to America about 600 b.c. When joined with the stick of Judah (the Bible) the two records form a unified, complementary testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ, his resurrection from the grave, and his divine works among these two segments of the house of Isreal.

A bible excerpt that supports the Book of Mormon:

Ezekiel 37:16-19

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 ¶And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

The Church Of Jesus Christ Of These Latter-day saints covers every aspects of the gospel with both the bible and book of mormon.

[HEthePrimate]

I see those passages and assume the Bible is accurate. So, I try to understand why God would order a society to be destroyed. I figure they were so corrupt God was sparing the earth of future generations of evil.

You figure that genocide is always wrong, must be wrong, and so the characters in the story must have misunderstood what God was telling them.

Is my summary fair?

Pretty much. Or they purposely claimed God told them to do it in order to justify their actions. Or they really did believe God told them to do it, much like the 9/11 terrorists probably believed God told them to do what they did.

Not everything done in the Bible was God's will, but I do believe everything written was what God wanted written.

I'll agree to disagree on that. This is not to say I don't value the Bible, or think it uninspired. I just don't believe that it's perfect.

[HEthePrimate]

I don't recall reading that heavenly father commanded people to commit genocide, please share a verse if you see in the Bible supporting excerpts.

Okay, here's when the Lord supposedly told them to destroy the Amalekites:

2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.

(1 Samuel 15:2-3)

Or Samuel claimed the Lord told him this. Or whoever wrote the book claimed that Samuel said that (authorship of the Books of Samuel is uncertain).

Note that it says to kill everyone, men, women, and even babies who were still breastfeeding. Animals, too.

Now, I don't believe the Lord really wanted that. This is a case where there may have been a mistranslation, or someone altered the text, or the original author had an agenda. But again, that's not to say we can't find good messages in Samuel, just that I don't believe the Lord commanded that particular thing.

It is possible the Israelites did not carry out the total destruction of the Amalekites anyways, as other scriptures hint that there were survivors. Maybe it was just a particularly brutal war, and the Israelites wanted to salve their conscience, I don't know.

Edited June 13, 2012 by HEthePrimate