Limiting God

[HEthePrimate]

FWIW, I like the "archaic" language of the King James Version--it's beautifully written. Of course it helps that I grew up reading that version, and understand that people who aren't used to the language might have trouble with it. So I have no problem with people who read more recent versions/translations, and sometimes read the NIV myself, as I was told by an Institute teacher who knows Greek and Hebrew that it's a more accurate translation. But for sheer beauty of expression, the KJV is excellent! (And what I'm used to, which of course has nothing whatsoever to do with it! )

[circusboy01]

Of course God is limited. He cannot commit blasphemy.

All-powerful is,thus, a relative term. Certainly God posesses the ability to sin. If he did not posess the gift of agency, would he be able to extend it to others such as his children? Logic says no, that no being can share that which it does not posess first. Having said that, were God to actually choose to sin in any way, he would lose the power and glory he posesses as a perfect being, thus he can accurately be said to be 'incapable of sin'.

In another respect, there is no desire in him to sin, as he has omnipotence to reveal to him the consequences of any sinful choice he could make. Such knowlege further prevents God from making a sinful decision.

Thus the real discussion of 'I cannot believe in a God that does (insert objectionable action/position here)' is one that would more accurately be that of our understanding of true perfection, justice, mercy, love, and all other attributes that the Bible lists as those posessed by God. After all, if we truly believe in a God that is perfect in every possible respect, then any objections we would have to what he says/does would then be easily marked down to our limited understanding of the eternal principles involved, and the requisite gaps in knowledge and information associated with it.

Unrelated to the discussion, but it's what popped into my head when I read the thread title.

I wonder. Does God Know the struggle we go through to fight sin, because He has the ability to sin. Or. Because He Had the ability to sin. As He grew into the being He is now did He lose that ability? Also does He still have agency? Since every decision He makes, will always be the right decision. Does He really even need agency? Like I said, I'm just wondering Brother Ray

Edited June 22, 2012 by circusboy01

[circusboy01]

About all the Threads I started, and posts I have commented on concerning modern scriptures. I can see now how I was wrong. I know there is more that is scripture than the 4 standard works Everything that comes out of the mouths of the quorum of the twelve is gospel. I'm sure my hang up about Modern scriptures, stems from an incident I had many years back. I had walked into a christian book store. The first thing that caught my eye was a large display of Bibles written in modern language. You had to go half way to the back of the store to even see a KJV. The second thing I noticed was The Book of Mormon in a large Cults display. It pi**ed me off. I took the BOM from the display and placed it on another shelf. Someimes seeing,or talking about modern scriptures takes me back to that time. There was a time in my life that I had no tolerance for things that were not LDS. In fact I would get down right indignant. I'm still kind of that way. But I've gotten a lot more mellow as time has gone by.

My apologies to those I might have argued with Brother Ray

[prisonchaplain]

Did Jesus not experience all that tempts us (at least in a broad sense)? I find it amazing that Jehovah understands our pains and struggles against sins. It makes sense that He is the one who brings us forgiveness of sins and divine healing.

[Traveler]

Did Jesus not experience all that tempts us (at least in a broad sense)? I find it amazing that Jehovah understands our pains and struggles against sins. It makes sense that He is the one who brings us forgiveness of sins and divine healing.

I find it ironic that in light of scientific evidence of evolution (of life and the cosmos) - That many interpret from scripture that G-d just spoke and from nothing things were created and came into being - but that Jehovah employed a very different attitude in suffering for our sins - rather than speak it and it was so - he subjected himself (despite his greatness) be be treated so badly.

I see such interpretations as inconsistencies in divine attitudes.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler, perhaps I am not familiar enough with LDS theology, but this is the first time I've heard the idea that Christ's incarnation argues against creation out of nothing--and that any other view is a fatal inconsistency. I found your idea intriguing, but hardly conclusive.

[circusboy01]

prisonchaplain.

This is not meant to be an argument. I'd just like to know if I'm understanding correctly. Protestants believe that God created the Earth and the Heavens out of nothing. Just poof and there it was?

Who, actually did this? God the Father, or Jesus Christ.

[prisonchaplain]

Circus,

We take the early part of Genesis 1 to mean that God created by speaking. God said that there was light and there was light. Scripture seems to indicate that it was Jesus who did the actual creating...all things were created by him and for him, according to Colossians 1.

"Is Creatio Ex Nihilo A Post-Biblical Invention? An Examination Of Gerhard May's Proposal" by Paul Copan

Edited June 24, 2012 by prisonchaplain

[circusboy01]

Circus,

We take the early part of Genesis 1 to mean that God created by speaking. God said that there was light and there was light. Scripture seems to indicate that it was Jesus who did the actual creating...all things were created by him and for him, according to Colossians 1.

"Is Creatio Ex Nihilo A Post-Biblical Invention? An Examination Of Gerhard May's Proposal" by Paul Copan

I believe thats pretty much how we look a it. God commanded jesus (spoke the words) Jesus created the Heavens and the Earth. by bringing together existing matter, or is it materials?

No doubt I will get lots of Post showing me where I am wrong Seems I always get a lot of Posts like that. Which is why I learn so much here. :) But this is just an "In a nutshell " explanation Brother Ray

[prisonchaplain]

The sticking point is whether Jesus spoke matter into being or whether he organized existing matter. I understand that LDS theology favors the latter, whereas most Protestants (and Catholics I believe) agree with the former.

[searching_questioner]

If, in a larger context that we know to be true, such as a church, or a religion, or a body of doctrine, we encounter things that we suspect are not true, or that we feel uncomfortable with, then it is our responsibility to change ourselves so that we can adapt to, and accept, and embrace that truth. Truth trumps trivial, personal likes and dislikes.

[Traveler]

Traveler, perhaps I am not familiar enough with LDS theology, but this is the first time I've heard the idea that Christ's incarnation argues against creation out of nothing--and that any other view is a fatal inconsistency. I found your idea intriguing, but hardly conclusive.

It was not that I was attempting to express contrasts to specifics of Creation and the incarnation of Christ. My point was to point to inconsistencies in doctrinal teachings of divine methods. I thought that the two explanations of the way G-d accomplishes his will is most inconsistent.

So my point is that if G-d just speaks to make something so - why is the death and resurrection of Christ so foreign to that concept? Fundamental to the doctrine of the divinity of G-d is that he is the same yesterday, today and forever yet we tend define G-d and his nature very differently in our interpretations of creation and incarnation.

Thus my point is that G-d sacrifices and pays a price for us - both in creation and incarnation and the perhaps we can learn about divine methods of all G-ds works through the wonder of the sacrifice of Christ. Maybe the creation was much more costly - both in time and effort than we are willing to give credit as we try to understand scripture.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

It is not inconsistent for God to create the world by speaking it into existence on the one hand, and to become flesh and endure suffering and death for our atonement on the other. I find it true to life that it is much easier to create than to maintain. My guess is that most parents would agree.

[Misshalfway]

"I cannot believe in a God who would torture souls in hell for all eternity."

"I don't believe in the God of the Old Testament. He's angry, and orders killing."

"If the _____ (evangelicals, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, whatever religion one disagrees with...) are right about _____ (hell, predestination, etc.) then I won't believe in God..."

I'm not targeting anyone in particular. Instead, I'm concerned about something I see happening more and more. Instead of the typical young person searching for truth, it seems that many people are on a search for a God or religion that suites their personality, or their personal beliefs. Perhaps it's an outgrowth of post-modernism. After all, if there is no absolute truth, but religion can comfort, all I need to do is find one that fits my predispositions.

THOUGHTS?

In reference to your original post, there is something about the "self suiting thing" that is disturbing to me as well.

In my own journey, I find that as I struggle with religion and spiritual ideas, I generally feel that I have desire to know the truth even if it means that I have to humble myself to a less comfortable position. It seems foreign to me to approach a study of God/truth from any other attitude. But that is just me.

I don't have any problem with a God who issues punishments. But I will say that it helps to understand the paradigm from which God is issuing them. If I imagine a god that created the law out of nothing, I guess I feel that this kind of god is more of a reflection of earthly leadership.....leadership that demands the subservience of it's subjects in order to maintain power. Something we might see with a dictator or a tyrant or even a king.

One of the reasons I still believe in the LDS faith is the perspective that everything associated with how God got to be God, all the commandments he issues, and everything associated with judgment, punishment, and reward, all center around the principles and laws of obedience.

According to LDS doctrine, God is God because he lives is perfect obedience. If he stopped obeying, he would cease to be God. But he won't cease to be God because his nature is so refined that he can't disobey. I don't think this means that God isn't limited. I think that, in this sense, He is. Limited by eternal law. But this in no way limits his power, omniscience, and love for mankind. It makes all of it possible. A God like this doesn't need the admiring, worship, or subservience of its subjects to maintain power because the source of the power is obedience. Also, a God like this would then be free to focus entirely on the education and progression of its children. No self interest could or would get it the way.

When I think about eternal punishments and rewards, it's more palatable for me to adhere to the dictates of a God who judges according to law. It helps me trust His judgment and His decisions more than a "free" being who can change according to his will and pleasure.

This is one of the reasons I like LDS doctrine. More than any other explanation of the hereafter, it allows for all scenarios. And it makes man perfectly accountable...according to uniqueness of each life experience. So where there is light and knowledge, the consequences will be proportional and perfect. Where there is no law, there is no punishment. Both justice and mercy are satisfied completely. As is the law. If I don't see doctrines of the church meeting both, then something inside of me yells "foul!" I wonder if this is also what is happening when people disavow certain aspects to religious teachings.

If this is the case, then I don't see them in the same category as the "self suitors."

Edited June 24, 2012 by Misshalfway

[Sicily510]

It is not inconsistent for God to create the world by speaking it into existence on the one hand, and to become flesh and endure suffering and death for our atonement on the other. I find it true to life that it is much easier to create than to maintain. My guess is that most parents would agree.

What is being created? How do you create intelligence? Is intelligence created or inherited? The teachings of this gospel is inherited in the scriptures not created, this is the light of Truth these testamonies are our inheritence from many years to give light and intelligence. Can you imagine many who've built their homes upon this foundation just to be told that it's false and not real. Yet everything that is brought about in these scriptures is a testament of humanities issues of being disobedient and unfaithful. Now we are living in a time where there is faithful and those obedient, yet some are still living in iniquity claiming to be pure in heart but still reject the poor in the things that they do. Wealth is a man made perception of living the life, intelligence is the inheritance which we can simply realize that we can live as spiritual beings not for the worldly things. Heavenly Father see's that we create our own limits by setting up trends from money, designs, and even education. Why do we do this to ourselves? Why do we allow ourselves to think of superiority from intellects to ideas? Why is technology full of abundant resources information yet, for a scholar you must possess a degree? Zion is about living in unity not in separation of wealth and poverty. Zion is about living to help others and not to focus on ourselves. Zion is about helping raise up children with God given rights to learn and live in righteousness. Zion is about encouraging many to be worthy and holy to dwell in the presence of Heavenly Father. It is to my total understanding that mankind is limiting God, for he had no limits in the beginning but when the fruit of knowing right from wrong was eaten did mankind become exposed and skillful in building ideas bad or good.

D&C 93:29

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Prov. 8:23

I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Abr. 3:18

Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

Jer. 1:5

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee

Isa. 55:8

¶For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

Ps. 74:16

thou hast prepared the light and the sun

[prisonchaplain]

The basic question is what did God create? I suppose he created everything that He is not. When he created humans, he put his image in us. Obviously all that is included in that image was not created in us, but rather was infused into us. Could that include intelligence, emotion, etc.? Very likely.

[Sicily510]

God created the plan of salvation for men, a song that I loved singing in primary that summarizes it:

"I lived in Heaven a long time ago it is true. Lived there and loved there with people I know so did you. Then Heavenly Father presented a beautiful plan. All about earth and eternal salvation for man. Father said he needed someone who had enough love. To give his life so we all could return there above. There was another who sought for the honor divine. Jesus said father send me and the glory be thine. Jesus was chosen and as the Messiah he came. conquering evil and death through his glorious name. giving us hope of a wonderful life yet to be. Home in that heaven where Father is waiting for me"

Mosiah 5:15

15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

Plan of Salvation

In the premortal existence, Heavenly Father prepared a plan to enable us to become like Him and receive a fulness of joy. The scriptures refer to this plan as "the plan of salvation" (Alma 24:14; Moses 6:62), "the great plan of happiness" (Alma 42:8), "the plan of redemption" (Jacob 6:8; Alma 12:30), and "the plan of mercy" (Alma 42:15). The plan of salvation is the fulness of the gospel. It includes the Creation, the Fall, the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and all the laws, ordinances, and doctrines of the gospel. Moral agency, the ability to choose and act for ourselves, is also essential in Heavenly Father's plan. Because of this plan, we can be perfected through the Atonement, receive a fulness of joy, and live forever in the presence of God. Our family relationships can last throughout the eternities.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Sicily510

[Traveler]

It is not inconsistent for God to create the world by speaking it into existence on the one hand, and to become flesh and endure suffering and death for our atonement on the other. I find it true to life that it is much easier to create than to maintain. My guess is that most parents would agree.

Hmmmm. I think your opinion about children may, by some, be considered a little male chauvinistic. In general I find that G-d has provided an environment in which the implementation of new ideas and getting things to actually work properly is by far and away more difficult than mealy keeping something already in place and working - to stay working.

The Traveler

[FunkyTown]

The sticking point is whether Jesus spoke matter into being or whether he organized existing matter. I understand that LDS theology favors the latter, whereas most Protestants (and Catholics I believe) agree with the former.

The only thing that is expressly described as being created ex nihilo in the bible is light. Matter came from somewhere, so it's safe to say God was involved.

Even in LDS teaching.

'All things were created spiritually before they were created physically' suggests that matter was created at one point rather than eternal, though it might not have necessarily been created ex nihilo. It could have been created from light, it could have been created from something else. There's simply not enough information from the bible to warrant an ex nihilo explanation for matter.

[Vort]

The only thing that is expressly described as being created ex nihilo in the bible is light. Matter came from somewhere, so it's safe to say God was involved.

Even in LDS teaching.

'All things were created spiritually before they were created physically' suggests that matter was created at one point rather than eternal, though it might not have necessarily been created ex nihilo.

D&C 93:33 states explicitly that "the elements are eternal".

[FunkyTown]

D&C 93:33 states explicitly that "the elements are eternal".

Sure, but eternal doesn't imply it goes eternally in to the past. Just to the future. Unless you're suggesting that Alma 3:26 which uses 'Eternal happiness' and 'eternal misery' suggests that those people have been eternally unhappy travelling backwards in time as well?

Or, since spirit is inseparably connected with matter in that same D&C, are you suggesting that spirit has inseparably filled matter as well for eternity?

And since our bodies are matter and were filled with spirit, did our spirits displace the spirit that filled this eternal matter?

Edited June 26, 2012 by FunkyTown

[Vort]

Sure, but eternal doesn't imply it goes eternally in to the past. Just to the future. Unless you're suggesting that Alma 3:26 which uses 'Eternal happiness' and 'eternal misery' suggests that those people have been eternally unhappy travelling backwards in time as well?

Or, since spirit is inseparably connected with matter in that same D&C, are you suggesting that spirit has inseparably filled matter as well for eternity?

And since our bodies are matter and were filled with spirit, did our spirits displace the spirit that filled this eternal matter?

Your statement was, "'All things were created spiritually before they were created physically' suggests that matter was created at one point rather than eternal, though it might not have necessarily been created ex nihilo." I was responding to that statement.

In my opinion, this entire discussion goes well beyond revealed truth and strolls through the territory of speculation, riding the backs of assumptions galore, both explicit and implicit. I doubt much useful will come of it.

[Sicily510]

May I state where is the "light" in this discussion? What is those who believe in Heavenly Father to learn from this? Are we suppose to question how matters came to be or are we to focus on the carnal understanding of men? Is this not what our Savior Jesus Christ died for? Didn't he proclaim Heavenly Father while living teaching us that we must fill ourselves with good thoughts, good deeds. Teaching us that we have the knowledge to know right from wrong and to "Choose the Right" so that we may be able to stand in Holy places. Do you think you would be capable of being in the presence of Heavenly Father when your purpose is to limit him? Everything that is done accordingly to the teachings of Jesus Christ examples and gospels has only strengthen my testimony and knowledge. And because it's based on my willingness to choose the right that I am able to be blessed, I have no excuse to not serve the lord because everything else that is not of the gospel lead me into afflictions. Once again, where is the "Light" in this discussion? When I express my belief in God the almighty to someone who chooses to limit him. I cannot prove to you with evidence because faith has been the key.

D&C 93:39

39 And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers.

[Traveler]

May I state where is the "light" in this discussion? What is those who believe in Heavenly Father to learn from this? Are we suppose to question how matters came to be or are we to focus on the carnal understanding of men? Is this not what our Savior Jesus Christ died for? Didn't he proclaim Heavenly Father while living teaching us that we must fill ourselves with good thoughts, good deeds. Teaching us that we have the knowledge to know right from wrong and to "Choose the Right" so that we may be able to stand in Holy places. Do you think you would be capable of being in the presence of Heavenly Father when your purpose is to limit him? Everything that is done accordingly to the teachings of Jesus Christ examples and gospels has only strengthen my testimony and knowledge. And because it's based on my willingness to choose the right that I am able to be blessed, I have no excuse to not serve the lord because everything else that is not of the gospel lead me into afflictions. Once again, where is the "Light" in this discussion? When I express my belief in God the almighty to someone who chooses to limit him. I cannot prove to you with evidence because faith has been the key.

D&C 93:39

39 And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers.

Sometimes there are great differences in how things are understood and perceived. For some to live by any “standard” be it love, honesty, compassion, honor, justice or even intelligence is in essence a condition of limitation. Some think of G-d as a being that would do whatever might please them not realizing that G-d has disciplined to perfection those things that “please him”. This is in contrast to the pursuit of evil that is in essence the pursuit of personal pleasures that most think as the definition of not being limited.

It is obvious to me that G-d has paid dearly for the blessings he gives - not just in the great sacrifice of suffering by Christ but even by the great sacrifice and divine effort used up in what is called “creation”. I believe it is important for us to know that G-d has invested great effort and divine resource in order that we may enjoy the fruits of salvation. The only return on G-d’s investment is the benefit that we will realize. In truth we are the limitations of G-d and the boundaries of his accomplishments and achievements.

I find it ironic that PC is concerned that some limit G-d in what they think G-d is doing but in reality the limiting man is not only the definition of Damnation (that by definition is being confined within limits) but also a means of limiting G-d or what is understood as G-d’s greatest achievement. In essence limiting G-d by what we will believe G-d can achieve in man. To say man cannot ever be like G-d.

The Traveler

[Sicily510]

"To say man cannot ever be like God"

Of course we cannot be like God in this temporal state that we're in, however, does that mean we should stop trying to be like him hoping and believing that we may become like him?

Isn't our purpose in this temporal state to prove that we want to be with and like Heavenly Father?

Gen. 3:22

¶And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: